Lockheed- If you've got the money, we've got the planes....

gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
edited August 2010 in A Moving Train
Israel to buy world's most advanced warplane

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100815/wl ... nslockheed

JERUSALEM (AFP) – Israel's Defence Minister Ehud Barak on Sunday approved the purchase of a fleet of US-built F-35 strike fighters in a move set to ramp up the capabilities of the Israeli Air Force.

The minister "approved in principle" a recommendation by the military to purchase the F-35 or Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), a statement from his office said.

Israel is initially expected to buy 20 of the aircraft in a deal worth an estimated 2.75 billion dollars, the top-selling Yediot Aharonot daily said in several reports published last week.

Should the deal be approved by the security cabinet, it will be the most expensive weapons deal ever signed by the Jewish state, it said.

"The F-35 is the fighter plane of the future which will give the air force better short-range and long-range capabilities which will help state security," Barak said in the statement.

Delivery of the first F-35s, which are still not yet operational, is expected only in 2015, the paper said.

The price includes the cost of setting up a logistical infrastructure in Israel to allow local firms to assemble the fighter plane and manufacture spare parts for it.

Udi Shani, defence ministry director general, said a key element of the deal was an agreement which would allow Israeli industries to get involved in the assembly of the plane and the manufacture of spares.

"The considerations for approving the deal were not just about the operational abilities of the plane but the agreements for involving Israeli industries in the assembly of the plane," the ministry quoted him as saying.

Acquisition of the F-35, which is made by US aerospace and defence giant Lockheed Martin, will give Israel access to stealth technology that will provide it with air superiority over enemy anti-aircraft defences.



here we go again, our corporations arming the world....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Tenzing N.Tenzing N. Posts: 466
    When did we stop arming the world? Virtually every nation flies US built military planes. I think the F-15 and F-16 are the most prolific. Good for Lookheed and Isreal. It's win-win.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Tenzing N. wrote:
    When did we stop arming the world? Virtually every nation flies US built military planes. I think the F-15 and F-16 are the most prolific. Good for Lookheed and Isreal. It's win-win.
    how is it a win-win?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Tenzing N.Tenzing N. Posts: 466
    They get air superiority and the US gets the money. How is that not win-win? Last I checked we were friends with Isreal? Besides- what other options are there out there? Euros can't build a plane, Soviets suck. If you want the best come to the states!! Same goes with commercial and virtually everything that flies. Except kites- can't go wrong with the Chinese on that one.
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    I'll just sit back and watch this one play out with a good bag of popcorn.
  • ONCE DEVIDEDONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    one wonders if the US will not allow.
    seeing as how they are always talking up the balance of power in the region.
    Or is it somthing against the Muslim Nations having any power.
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • Tenzing N.Tenzing N. Posts: 466
    I guess I don't get it. You know that the Isrealis as well as several other nations were considered when designing the F-35, F-22, etc. Is it the capatalism of war aspect that rubs you the wrong way? It's not like we're selling these things to the Afghans. (They would probably crash them all anyway- hilarity would ensue!)
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Tenzing N. wrote:
    They get air superiority and the US gets the money. How is that not win-win? Last I checked we were friends with Isreal? Besides- what other options are there out there? Euros can't build a plane, Soviets suck. If you want the best come to the states!! Same goes with commercial and virtually everything that flies. Except kites- can't go wrong with the Chinese on that one.
    they get air superiority??? they already have it in that region of the world! how much more air superioirty do they need? unless they plan on attacking someone in that region that would require more air superiority than they already have....and yes, lockheed martin will make money, but the US will not, as lockheed martin has a history of getting huge government war contracts and paying only a percentage in taxes than other corporations. including the largest military contract in human history. in 2002 they were "effectively taxed at 7.7% compared to an average tax rate for individuals of 21-33%." more info on that company can be found below...

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=9
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Tenzing N.Tenzing N. Posts: 466
    So you're more concerned with the fisco-political ramifications of such a sale. That I can understand. As far as the technical stand point- maybe in the area (the F-16s they are using are getting old there and they have no stealth capabilites) but if they can afford the best why not sell it to them. I don't understand why any military would buy manned fighters anymore anyway with the advent of drone technology but that's another point.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Tenzing N. wrote:
    I guess I don't get it. You know that the Isrealis as well as several other nations were considered when designing the F-35, F-22, etc. Is it the capatalism of war aspect that rubs you the wrong way? It's not like we're selling these things to the Afghans. (They would probably crash them all anyway- hilarity would ensue!)
    it is absolutely the capitalism of war that i disagree with. war profitteers are the lowest form of human being. and if the afghans would have the money i guarantee that lockheed would sell to them. arms dealers have no souls or conscience. they sell to anyone that has the money. it is not the people of afghanistan that is our enemy, it is the taliban, who coincidently are not in power over there......yet....and even if we did not sell to the afghans, i am sure another country would. but as it looks now, the afghans do not need these planes to fight us to a stalemate...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Tenzing N.Tenzing N. Posts: 466
    I suppose I was never interested in debating you over the merits of war profiteering. I was just stating that from a logistic stand point there is no reason why the Isrealis shouldn't have these planes. We've been thier aircraft supplier for decades. Sorry...
  • Israel is initially expected to buy 20 of the aircraft in a deal worth an estimated 2.75 billion dollars
    the US gives Israel $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year. Israel will still have some change left over once they purchase the planes. in effect the US is already paying for the aircraft.

    almost all of the US "foreign aid" goes toward weapons. they are the largest weapons dealer on the planet.

    the US is funding the siege of gaza. if you're an american you are paying for brutality and repression and misery.

    congratulations. give yourselves a big pat on the back.

    disgusting.
  • haffajappahaffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    someones gotta buy it before stephen harper blows another umpteen billion on some
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    The Israeli deal is mere peanuts compared to the deal that was announced last week with Saudi Arabia for $60 billion dollars.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-12/u-s-sale-of-fighter-jets-helicopters-to-saudis-said-to-reach-60-billion.html

    The deal includes:
    * 132 Boeing Apache attack helicopters
    * 84 F-15s
    * 72 UH-60 Black Hawk
    * 60 AH-64D Longbow Apaches

    Some interesting tidbits from the article:

    "The proposal fits the Obama administration’s strategy of buttressing the defense capabilities of Middle East allies to counter Iran’s growing offensive missile might and suspected nuclear weapons program. It would be part of the Gulf Security Dialogue started by the Bush administration."

    and

    The Pentagon intends to formally notify the Senate and House foreign affairs panels by mid-September of the final arms package, the official said. “In the past, a record-setting deal to a region of tension like the Persian Gulf would have drawn considerable congressional opposition,” Hartung said. “That does not seem to be the case this time around.”
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Jason P wrote:
    The Israeli deal is mere peanuts compared to the deal that was announced last week with Saudi Arabia for $60 billion dollars.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-12/u-s-sale-of-fighter-jets-helicopters-to-saudis-said-to-reach-60-billion.html

    The deal includes:
    * 132 Boeing Apache attack helicopters
    * 84 F-15s
    * 72 UH-60 Black Hawk
    * 60 AH-64D Longbow Apaches

    Some interesting tidbits from the article:

    "The proposal fits the Obama administration’s strategy of buttressing the defense capabilities of Middle East allies to counter Iran’s growing offensive missile might and suspected nuclear weapons program. It would be part of the Gulf Security Dialogue started by the Bush administration."

    and

    The Pentagon intends to formally notify the Senate and House foreign affairs panels by mid-September of the final arms package, the official said. “In the past, a record-setting deal to a region of tension like the Persian Gulf would have drawn considerable congressional opposition,” Hartung said. “That does not seem to be the case this time around.”
    they are arming the entire region other than iran. does anybody else see a problem with this? iran is going to seek weapons from russia or china to bolster their defenses to level the playing field and then we are going to have a major fucking war in the middle east. it will be world war III, it will be US, israel, saudi arabia and our other allies like great britain and france vs, iran, russia, pakistan, afghanistan, china, and maybe a few countries in northern africa and maybe a few former soviet states...it is gonna be ugly. get ready to get your war on, again, people...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    they are arming the entire region other than iran. does anybody else see a problem with this? iran is going to seek weapons from russia or china to bolster their defenses to level the playing field and then we are going to have a major fucking war in the middle east. it will be world war III, it will be US, israel, saudi arabia and our other allies like great britain and france vs, iran, russia, pakistan, afghanistan, china, and maybe a few countries in northern africa and maybe a few former soviet states...it is gonna be ugly. get ready to get your war on, again, people...
    I wonder what the criteria for a World War is? Cause there sure are a lot of countries already fighting in multiple countries over there. But yes, if we dragged Iran into it, the entire muslim world could ignite (can't say I'd blame them).

    This is the part of the Israeli deal that I found disturbing:
    The price includes the cost of setting up a logistical infrastructure in Israel to allow local firms to assemble the fighter plane and manufacture spare parts for it.

    Udi Shani, defence ministry director general, said a key element of the deal was an agreement which would allow Israeli industries to get involved in the assembly of the plane and the manufacture of spares.

    Is this standard for a deal of this magnitude? Doesn’t sound like they bought the actual technology/design patent (or whatever would protect the ‘intellectual property’ of the plane)…but it DOES sound like this infrastructure will allow them to manufacture the jets at an extremely reduced cost after the initial order...which is concerning from a perspective of possible pre-war escalation / stockpiling…(esp since reading of the deal with SA).
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Tenzing N. wrote:
    I guess I don't get it. You know that the Isrealis as well as several other nations were considered when designing the F-35, F-22, etc. Is it the capatalism of war aspect that rubs you the wrong way? It's not like we're selling these things to the Afghans. (They would probably crash them all anyway- hilarity would ensue!)
    ...
    Let me just make these corrections...
    No. There were no other competitors in the JSF Proposal... just Lockheed(General Dynamics) and Boeing(McDonnell Douglas). The U.S. Department of Defense set the requirements for a multi-role strike aircraft that would fit the different role a Strike aircraft would have in the different services (Air Force, Navy/Marines). The U.S. does not open up competition for advanced weapons systems to foriegn sources.
    The plane must maintain manuverability and firepower for Air Superiority and be capable for carrier landings as well as Vertical/Short Take-off and Landing. The Lockheed design can be suited for all of these roles with the correct modification kits.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    This is the part of the Israeli deal that I found disturbing:
    The price includes the cost of setting up a logistical infrastructure in Israel to allow local firms to assemble the fighter plane and manufacture spare parts for it.

    Udi Shani, defence ministry director general, said a key element of the deal was an agreement which would allow Israeli industries to get involved in the assembly of the plane and the manufacture of spares.

    Is this standard for a deal of this magnitude? Doesn’t sound like they bought the actual technology/design patent (or whatever would protect the ‘intellectual property’ of the plane)…but it DOES sound like this infrastructure will allow them to manufacture the jets at an extremely reduced cost after the initial order...which is concerning from a perspective of possible pre-war escalation / stockpiling…(esp since reading of the deal with SA).
    ...
    That's typical of foriegn sales... spares and maintenance.
    The Assembly would be crated planes instead of conventional delivery of operational readied aircraft. Sort of like the car manufacturers shiping you a car that was pretty much ready to go, but you had to put on the wheels and install the seats.
    The spares are things such as landing gear, canopys, moving parts that face operational wear and tear.
    It takes billions to fire up manufacturing. Think of it as after-market goods you would buy for your car... versus what it would cost you to build a second car from scratch.
    The F-35 is a kitted aircraft with 3 options available. My guess... the Israelis don't need the heavier undercarriages because they do not plan to make carrier landing.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    and all paid for courtesy of the american taxpayers

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... n-1.308235

    Defense Minister Barak approves purchase of 20 F-35 fighters for around $2.75 billion
    By Anshel Pfeffer

    Defense Minister Ehud Barak gave the go-ahead yesterday for the purchase of 20 F-35 fighter jets in a deal valued at around $2.75 billion. The first planes are expected to arrive in 2015.

    The Israel Air Force, however, will have to make do with considerably fewer planes than the 75 originally sought. The entire deal will be funded by American military aid and still needs the cabinet's approval.

    "The F-35 is the fighter plane of the future that will allow Israel to maintain its aerial superiority and its technological advantage in the region," Barak said. "The F-35 will give the IAF better capabilities, both near and far, to help strengthen Israel's national security."

    Negotiations dragged on for more than two years amid several disagreements; many revolved around the IAF's demands that Israeli-made systems be installed for specialties such as electronic warfare and communications. Israel also wanted to expand the plane's capacity to allow it to carry Israeli-made missiles.

    The Americans declined, however, insisting that the deal was a "closed package" and none of the components could be altered.

    In any case, the F-35 will give the IAF outstanding radar-dodging capabilities that allow preemptive strikes against enemy states with advanced air defense technologies.

    In a bid to maintain Israel's technological gap ahead of Arab states, the F-35 deal was pushed through instead of upgrading the air force's F-15s and F-16s.
    This approach sticks to the principle that Israel is the first country in the Middle East to receive the newest fighter aircraft.

    The IAF was sufficiently committed to this principle to override protests from the leaders of Israeli defense contractors, who claimed that the deal was damaging them.

    The package also got by opposition from a number of members of the General Staff who criticized the high price of the deal, which does not allow for investment into weapons for the land forces and navy.

    Two weeks ago, Barak and Defense Ministry Director-General Udi Shani visited the United States and met with senior officials in the Pentagon, as well as representatives of Lockheed Martin, to discuss the purchase.

    They agreed that Israel would begin by buying a first squadron of 20 F-35 jets from the first production series. It would only install a few Israel-made systems. The Americans, meanwhile, have agreed that if Israel buys more F-35 squadrons from later production series, the installation of more Israeli-made systems will be allowed.

    To sweeten the deal, Lockheed Martin said it would buy parts and systems for the F-35 from Israeli companies at a cost of $4 billion.

    The total price tag confirmed by Barak indicates that each plane costs about $96 million, with further expenses on training, simulators, spare parts and the building of maintenance infrastructure.


    Shani said that apart from the jet's operational capacity, a significant factor in closing the deal included previous agreements on integrating Israeli defense contractors in producing the jet for other clients.
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Israel is initially expected to buy 20 of the aircraft in a deal worth an estimated 2.75 billion dollars
    the US gives Israel $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year. Israel will still have some change left over once they purchase the planes. in effect the US is already paying for the aircraft.

    almost all of the US "foreign aid" goes toward weapons. they are the largest weapons dealer on the planet.

    the US is funding the siege of gaza. if you're an american you are paying for brutality and repression and misery.

    congratulations. give yourselves a big pat on the back.

    disgusting.
    exactly. good job america, you're funding brutality and oppression and daily misery.


    if history is any guide in Iraeli operations, they are going to kill 70% civilians with these planes. whoever decided to arm those psychos probably shouldn't be in a position to make those decisions, something like 99% of congress.
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