Infant Euthanasia ???

Jeanwah

What a difficult subject... Surely, it's difficult to say what you'd do until you're actually in a situation as dire as your infant being extremely sick, and in constant pain. This whole idea is similar to realizing that the baby you're pregnant with has a serious, life threatening condition such as Trisomy 13...

redrock

StillHere wrote:

I'm sorry but unless a child is brain-dead.....proven to be brain-dead..then how can anyone say that there is NO HOPE?

Death is the prognostic. It may come after a few days, weeks or months. But the infant will die, having lived his/her short live in agonizing pain. These are not 'borderline' cases. They are cases with known outcomes. Like my friend who had a virulent cancer which had already spread by the time he was diagnosed. His prognostic was death - no way out. Anywhere between 6 weeks and 3 months. The professionals have multitude of ways of being able to 'call' cut and dry cases. More often than not, several opinions are required. It's harsh but it's reality.

redrock

mikepegg44 wrote:

we are born with instincts. those instincts cause us to pull our hand away from something that hurts, and latch on to a breast that is feeding us without ever having seen one before. No animal has the instinct to kill itself . . . some do but that is a whole other topic

Exactly... instincts. Very different thing to being able to contemplate life or death, understand the meaning of these.

mikepegg44

polaris_x wrote:

we can't read horse's or dog's minds either yet - we do it for humanitarian reasons every day ...
i believe medically and scientifically speaking we can determine when an infant is suffering in agony ... again - if a child has been properly diagnosed with a condition that causes severe amounts of pain and the kid is full out bawling ... you can be pretty sure he/she is suffering ... if you burn an infant - they are gonna cry ... you don't need to read their minds to know that ... it boils down to this:
is their a mechanism for pain?
does child exhibit behaviour associated with pain?

I have reasoning to not do it, but it all boils down to how you think you are helping...if assisted suicide is legal, than this should be too, it just isnt something I would do...,

as far as the dog/horse comment, doesn't apply here. I just don't know how you can equate that with the life of a kid

mikepegg44

redrock wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

we are born with instincts. those instincts cause us to pull our hand away from something that hurts, and latch on to a breast that is feeding us without ever having seen one before. No animal has the instinct to kill itself . . . some do but that is a whole other topic

Exactly... instincts. Very different thing to being able to contemplate life or death, understand the meaning of these.

Are you agreeing with my position or disagreeing? i cannot tell, are you telling me to understand the difference between instincts and our ability to contemplate life and death? Dont want to assume things but am hoping you just left out the word "or"

StillHere

mikepegg44 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

we can't read horse's or dog's minds either yet - we do it for humanitarian reasons every day ...
i believe medically and scientifically speaking we can determine when an infant is suffering in agony ... again - if a child has been properly diagnosed with a condition that causes severe amounts of pain and the kid is full out bawling ... you can be pretty sure he/she is suffering ... if you burn an infant - they are gonna cry ... you don't need to read their minds to know that ... it boils down to this:
is their a mechanism for pain?
does child exhibit behaviour associated with pain?

I have reasoning to not do it, but it all boils down to how you think you are helping...if assisted suicide is legal, than this should be too, it just isnt something I would do...,

as far as the dog/horse comment, doesn't apply here. I just don't know how you can equate that with the life of a kid

assisted suicide is on behalf of an ADULT who has consciously made an informed decision to end their life
big difference

as far as prognostication...i've spent decades in nursing...nothing, nothing, nothing..is for certain....for real

FiveB247x

It's about quality of life, not the species, that's his point. Whether your family member or beloved animal, no one wants anyone to suffer. And in these type of circumstances, if the situation called for it and there was no point of return or quality of life, why make a child or anything suffer longer?? That's what he meant about self-interest. People talk about humans intervening or becoming god, but never account for the other half - all the medicine and technology we use to prop up life and to not let go... it goes both ways.

mikepegg44 wrote:

as far as the dog/horse comment, doesn't apply here. I just don't know how you can equate that with the life of a kid

polaris_x

mikepegg44 wrote:

I have reasoning to not do it, but it all boils down to how you think you are helping...if assisted suicide is legal, than this should be too, it just isnt something I would do...,

as far as the dog/horse comment, doesn't apply here. I just don't know how you can equate that with the life of a kid

you used the reasoning that you can't read a child's mind for not acting ... all i'm saying is we act without that ability in many other scenarios ...

at the end of the day - you are obviously entitled to your decisions - i'm just saying mine and why

mikepegg44

polaris_x wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I have reasoning to not do it, but it all boils down to how you think you are helping...if assisted suicide is legal, than this should be too, it just isnt something I would do...,

as far as the dog/horse comment, doesn't apply here. I just don't know how you can equate that with the life of a kid

you used the reasoning that you can't read a child's mind for not acting ... all i'm saying is we act without that ability in many other scenarios ...

at the end of the day - you are obviously entitled to your decisions - i'm just saying mine and why

right on, I can respect it, I certainly see both sides,

and props to everyone here, already the second page and no name calling...I kind of high-jacked this thing so I am out

StillHere

Nice intelligent discussion my friends

Kudos to all!

redrock

mikepegg44 wrote:

redrock wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

we are born with instincts. those instincts cause us to pull our hand away from something that hurts, and latch on to a breast that is feeding us without ever having seen one before. No animal has the instinct to kill itself . . . some do but that is a whole other topic

Exactly... instincts. Very different thing to being able to contemplate life or death, understand the meaning of these.

Are you agreeing with my position or disagreeing? i cannot tell, are you telling me to understand the difference between instincts and our ability to contemplate life and death? Dont want to assume things but am hoping you just left out the word "or"

Sorry... must try and express myself more clearly! I was agreeing when you said that we are born with instincts. Instincts are very different to a fully processed thought. It is a reaction, there is no 'debating'. Instinct to survive - latch on to the breast (if there is one available) to feed. The first time a baby latches on, it will not think "ummm... a lovely boobie over there... I'm guessing there must have some lovely warm milk in those and I think I fancy a lil' drink right now... Though I wonder if I should go with formula and try the bottle or go for the breast". I know, silly example but that is a full thought process, identifying options, analysing them and actioning.

Contemplating life and death and understanding such abstract and complex concepts are a whole different issue and are not instincts. Therefore when you were saying we don't know if the baby wants to live as long as possible or if it wants to die, I argue that this baby does not have the capability to even contemplate such possibilities, even less 'wanting' because he/she is not able to have such thought processes. Therefore a decision needs to be made for him/her. In the cases were are discussing, whether the decision taken will be right or wrong really lies in the heart of the parents and we are not to judge.

Not sure if this is any clearer!

blackredyellow

cincybearcat wrote:

This is something I don't want to think about so I'm going to have no opinion on it. What a terrible position to be in.

+1

TriumphantAngel

I remember seeing a documentary where there was much discussion about a Doctor in the Netherlands who admitted to killing babies. towards the end, he made a comment about how when they had died, he saw peace in their little faces for the first time. it was really upsetting to watch. i can't imagine what it must be like for anyone faced with that decision. it's one thing to have an opinion and debate it i guess, but in reality it would be heartbreaking.

i can't find the video, but there is a good article here about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/magaz ... gewanted=1

ONCE DEVIDED

I think everyone has the right to an opinion. and please DO share but
Heres mine

Have you ever watched a 3 yr old little boy. Riddled with cancer along the spine, into the brain. Surgery after surgery. taking away every last aspect of his life, first his comunication, then his movement. sitting with this gem of a kid . with his lost eyes staring at you as you read to him. As you bathed his limp body.
This was my family freinds 1st child. he stayed in that state for about 10 months untill he faded into unconsiencness, he lasted about 2 more after that as the cancer fought back and won.
If I had a choice I would have ended his pain. but it wasnt my choice to make. neither was it his parents either .

shoot 15 years later . having a child who every day is getting sicker. a genetic condition. Do you have a child who sometimes feels like she is drowning in her own Spit ( flem) ( her discription). at this stage in her life she is doing ok. but its a gradual decline and one day she will succumb.

Does anyone even have a clue. A lot of you Keep on saying its the parent who is looking after themselves , getting rid of the burden. What GALL. do you have any idea. have you ever experienced this yourself.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA.
would you kill your child - if not why do you think a parent would kill their child to make life easier.
I love my precios gift more than my own existence and I would do anything to help her. ANYTHING

if thats making the most awful decision . then its a decision I would make.
I hope and hope for a cure. as I see others with her condition pass away in a trully awful way.

Hope I havnt offended . but bcoz so many base their decisions based on what their religon tells em. they have no idea

Smellyman

OnceDevided,

thanks for sharing. What a terrible thing to have to go though.

Best wishes to you and your daughter....

ONCE DEVIDED

Smellyman wrote:

OnceDevided,

thanks for sharing. What a terrible thing to have to go though.

Best wishes to you and your daughter....

Thanks mate
Sorry after reading some opinions I had to dump
sorry for my harshness.

MY motto Has always been
HERE FOR FOR A GOOD TIME
NOT A LONG TIME

so with what time she will eventually get . I wii make sure she has a life filled with great things.
great adventures , great freinds.
She is a gem.

E.V & PJ has already helped ( www.myspace.com/lizziealive) raised over $10,000 so far.
Jammers have also been increadibly kind and supportive. makes your heart soar

redrock

So sorry to hear about your daughter Once Devided. CF is nasty and such a difficult illness to work with, especially in children as they can't always comprehend what in the hell is happening. I don't know how affected your daughter is and I'm sure you know everything that is to know about CF but for a lot of sufferers with lots of meds, physio, there is hope for surviving and leading a 'productive' (whatever people think that may mean) life well into adulthood. But I feel for you and any parent who has to see his/her little child suffer. You just want to take the pain away but you are powerless. My daughter is the only person I have this such overwhelming love for and for whom I would die or kill (and this feeling was from the moment I gave birth to her). Should I be faced with the situation of being told my newborn will live a very short and extremely painful life and I have 'options', I don't know how I would be able to deal with this. There would be so many conflicting emotions. I know I would want to take the pain away but I would want to have my baby with me... Things like this make me cry just typing about it....

ONCE DEVIDED

redrock wrote:

So sorry to hear about your daughter Once Devided. CF is nasty and such a difficult illness to work with, especially in children as they can't always comprehend what in the hell is happening. I don't know how affected your daughter is and I'm sure you know everything that is to know about CF but for a lot of sufferers with lots of meds, physio, there is hope for surviving and leading a 'productive' (whatever people think that may mean) life well into adulthood. But I feel for you and any parent who has to see his/her little child suffer. You just want to take the pain away but you are powerless. My daughter is the only person I have this such overwhelming love for and for whom I would die or kill (and this feeling was from the moment I gave birth to her). Should I be faced with the situation of being told my newborn will live a very short and extremely painful life and I have 'options', I don't know how I would be able to deal with this. There would be so many conflicting emotions. I know I would want to take the pain away but I would want to have my baby with me... Things like this make me cry just typing about it....

thanks for your thoughts
She is doing ok. had a bad year this year with ita all. she has been reletivly well up untill this year. Hospitalised for nearly 3 weeks just a few months ago, and now again we are looking down the barrel of another stay. the constant meds ( at the moment 5 nebulised treatments per day) and treatment Physio and pep ( puffing against pressure)) 1 each. probably about 2-3 hrs a day.
but she does it all so stoicly ( as stoic as a 6 year old can be). she amazes me with her positive attitude.
And she see's her CF as her thing. everyone has a thing. Dad has a dogy back, mum has dodgy eyes . her mate noah well he is just crazy.
she knows it sucks but thats the way it is.

any way my point is about kids way sicker than she is. I just wanted to point out that parents who make these decisions would never make these decisions based on their own burdens but based on easing the pain of their most precious gift.

redrock

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

....her mate noah well he is just crazy..

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

.....I just wanted to point out that parents who make these decisions would never make these decisions based on their own burdens but based on easing the pain of their most precious gift.

Whoever thinks that making such a decision is an 'easy way out' for the parent must not have loved a child. I may be wrong....

StillHere

These are such sad, sad, stories. I feel for those who have even had to THINK about making such a decision, let alone what would happen if the time came when that decision was imminent.

I don't think that parents would do this to lighten their own burdern....not at all. It is probably one of the most selfless acts a parent could do...and one that I ....so far....know that I could not do.

Now, that's easy to say since I have 3 children who grew up healthy and 5 healthy grandbaby boys. I can sit here and say, no I could NEVER do that...never make that decision.

But after reading some of your stories, I have to wonder if I could. If it really came down to it. Could I? I've thought about that a lot over the last couple of days.....and I still cannot wrap my head around it...can't imagine ever being able to make that decision.

But at least I have a more open mind and more understanding about why people could and would make that choice.

I'm sorry that so many have had to go through such suffering and relate their stories ...that I might change my outlook....but I'm happy to have heard those stories, no matter how difficult they are. You all have taught me what complete selflessness means to you.

In my life, I still maintain i could not....but if you feel that you would have no other choice, neither could I condemn you for it.

Best to all of those dealing with these terrible illnesses. I can only realize how blessed my family truly has been.

To you I send all the bests vibes I can muster...and I know that no matter what I would do, I could not make it better for you and your child. I send them anyway....hoping for miracles.