Prop 8 Overturned

know1

haffajappa wrote:

know1 wrote:

This article is written very carefully so as to sound logical. The problem is that we can't have a system that upholds the demands of every single group or fraction of society if the majority votes them down. It would be a complete breakdown of law and order.

So you're saying its okay to do something or have a law so long as the majority agrees?

Not really. I'm saying it could be a dangerous or slippery slope to let a single entity or a few select individuals decide when majority rule is allowed and when it is not.

know1

lgoose420 wrote:

So I get the whole being uncomfortable with "The Gay" I am not but I get it all the same but isn't this a very simple civil rights question. Does equality not trump moral objection?

I think there are more shades of grey to it than that.

Disclaimer: read my original post to see that I don't really think either side of this issue makes a lot of sense in their positions. Applicable to what I say next is that I am not going to spend any effort or oppose gay people being married.

Here's where it's a bit grey and I know I'll get blasted for this. Currently every adult in California does have the legal ability to marry someone...as long as it is someone of the opposite sex. So one could make the argument that there is equality.

aerial

Why do we even vote if one man can change what the people want….so the majority will not rule…but the minority will rule?

FiveB247x

People want to make this a grey issue... its basic human rights equality. Sexual preference should not determine what level of rights you have in the nation. It's nothing more than that... every other reason and discussion is secondary to the main issue at hand serves more of a distraction in order to blur the issue and discuss religion, morality, etc.

know1

FiveB247x wrote:

People want to make this a grey issue... its basic human rights equality. Sexual preference should not determine what level of rights you have in the nation. It's nothing more than that... every other reason and discussion is secondary to the main issue at hand serves more of a distraction in order to blur the issue and discuss religion, morality, etc.

But I don't even believe that marriage is a right. I believe it's a privilege.

My biggest belief, however, is that the government should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. It shouldn't be government's business.

Cosmo

aerial wrote:

Why do we even vote if one man can change what the people want….so the majority will not rule…but the minority will rule?

...
Because we live in a representative Republic... not a true Democracy. We learned that in our U.S. Government in high school.
And because the Law of the land covers everybody, not just the majority.
And... well, just think about it... what if there was the initiative process in place in the 1940s and 1950s... the majority would have ruled in favor of Segregation. Is that a good thing in your eyes? That just because the majority wants something... they should get it?

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

People want to make this a grey issue... its basic human rights equality. Sexual preference should not determine what level of rights you have in the nation. It's nothing more than that... every other reason and discussion is secondary to the main issue at hand serves more of a distraction in order to blur the issue and discuss religion, morality, etc.

But I don't even believe that marriage is a right. I believe it's a privilege.

My biggest belief, however, is that the government should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. It shouldn't be government's business.

...
Why is it the government's business? Taxes.

Jason P

know1 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

People want to make this a grey issue... its basic human rights equality. Sexual preference should not determine what level of rights you have in the nation. It's nothing more than that... every other reason and discussion is secondary to the main issue at hand serves more of a distraction in order to blur the issue and discuss religion, morality, etc.

But I don't even believe that marriage is a right. I believe it's a privilege.

My biggest belief, however, is that the government should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. It shouldn't be government's business.

+1

FiveB247x

The main reason it is government's business is for taxes and benefits.

And why exactly is it a privilege?

know1 wrote:

But I don't even believe that marriage is a right. I believe it's a privilege.

My biggest belief, however, is that the government should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. It shouldn't be government's business.

Jason P

FiveB247x wrote:

The main reason it is government's business is for taxes and benefits.

And why exactly is it a privilege?

know1 wrote:

But I don't even believe that marriage is a right. I believe it's a privilege.

My biggest belief, however, is that the government should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. It shouldn't be government's business.

Rights are granted to you the day you are born. In some cultures, marriage may be a right but over here in the States it is a privilege. For instance, a 5 year old and a 7 year old cannot be married, regardless of sexual orientation.

FiveB247x

The main reason I would say it is not a privileged is solely because it is based upon an age we deem. We wouldn't say you have the privilege to work or privilege to join the army or have a drink, so why would it apply here? And if it is, it is solely based on the reward/benefit of being married which goes back to the two issues I mentioned. Also, if it is a privilege for society, it is being applied to some in a discriminatory manner. We don't say men can drink at 18, but women 19.. or some other type of inconsistency right? So where you consider it a privilege or right, it still boils down to discrimination based on outside, non-legitimate reasons. It's no different than slavery, voting or many of the policies we've engaged in which discriminated certain groups of people due to racism, bigotry or sexism through our history.

Jason P wrote:

Rights are granted to you the day you are born. In some cultures, marriage may be a right but over here in the States it is a privilege. For instance, a 5 year old and a 7 year old cannot be married, regardless of sexual orientation.

haffajappa

Kind of like sitting at the front of the bus was a privilege?

Jason P

FiveB247x wrote:

The main reason I would say it is not a privileged is solely because it is based upon an age we deem. We wouldn't say you have the privilege to work or privilege to join the army or have a drink, so why would it apply here? And if it is, it is solely based on the reward/benefit of being married which goes back to the two issues I mentioned. Also, if it is a privilege for society, it is being applied to some in a discriminatory manner. We don't say men can drink at 18, but women 19.. or some other type of inconsistency right? So where you consider it a privilege or right, it still boils down to discrimination based on outside, non-legitimate reasons. It's no different than slavery, voting or many of the policies we've engaged in which discriminated certain groups of people due to racism, bigotry or sexism through our history.

Jason P wrote:

Rights are granted to you the day you are born. In some cultures, marriage may be a right but over here in the States it is a privilege. For instance, a 5 year old and a 7 year old cannot be married, regardless of sexual orientation.

I agree that it is discrimination. The right / privilege issue is a little more murky as you have pointed out above (but technically . . . ).

I'm more confused on why gay people want to get legally married in the first place. They have it made right now! You don't have to worry about your significant other dropping marriage hints or getting half your stuff taken away in a messy divorce or getting stuck in a legally-bound relationship that has gone stale. I'd be willing to bet a 55 gallon drum of cherry Kool-Aid that 40% of the couples in gay relationships have one member secretly crossing their fingers that Prop 8 stays.

FiveB247x

Why people want to get legally married? How bout healthcare, taxes, access to medical and legal issues? Would you like to pay for things others get for free solely because of your sexual orientation?

Jason P wrote:

Jason P wrote:

Rights are granted to you the day you are born. In some cultures, marriage may be a right but over here in the States it is a privilege. For instance, a 5 year old and a 7 year old cannot be married, regardless of sexual orientation.

I agree that it is discrimination. The right / privilege issue is a little more murky as you have pointed out above (but technically . . . ).

I'm more confused on why gay people want to get legally married in the first place. They have it made right now! You don't have to worry about your significant other dropping marriage hints or getting half your stuff taken away in a messy divorce or getting stuck in a legally-bound relationship that has gone stale. I'd be willing to bet a 55 gallon drum of cherry Kool-Aid that 40% of the couples in gay relationships have one member secretly crossing their fingers that Prop 8 stays. [/quote]

Cosmo

Jason P wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

The main reason it is government's business is for taxes and benefits.

And why exactly is it a privilege?

know1 wrote:

But I don't even believe that marriage is a right. I believe it's a privilege.

My biggest belief, however, is that the government should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. It shouldn't be government's business.

Rights are granted to you the day you are born. In some cultures, marriage may be a right but over here in the States it is a privilege. For instance, a 5 year old and a 7 year old cannot be married, regardless of sexual orientation.

...
What about the right to vote? You are born with the right to vote when you reach age 18.
The government does not grant you the privilege to vote, you were guaranteed that right when you are born... even though you may not exercise that right until you are 18 (and are not in prison on a felony conviction).

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

What about the right to vote? You are born with the right to vote when you reach age 18.
The government does not grant you the privilege to vote, you were guaranteed that right when you are born... even though you may not exercise that right until you are 18 (and are not in prison on a felony conviction).

and by giving you that 'right' to vote youre also given the right NOT to vote. which is a right we here in australia do not have. though its really about getting your name marked off the roll... after that you can draw little piggies all over your ballot papers if you feel like it.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

What about the right to vote? You are born with the right to vote when you reach age 18.
The government does not grant you the privilege to vote, you were guaranteed that right when you are born... even though you may not exercise that right until you are 18 (and are not in prison on a felony conviction).

and by giving you that 'right' to vote youre also given the right NOT to vote. which is a right we here in australia do not have. though its really about getting your name marked off the roll... after that you can draw little piggies all over your ballot papers if you feel like it.

...
I cannot imagine that happening over here... we have way too many nimrods wearing tinfoil hats and armed to the teeth that would go berserk.
Yes... ours is a right to vote or not vote. To which the vast majority chooses not to vote... which explains a 23% voter turnout.
...
And yes... we have the right to marry or not to marry. If it were a priviledge... we would need to seek permission to marry with the possible outcome of denial. That is not how it should be... regardless of what the majority of the people believe.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

What about the right to vote? You are born with the right to vote when you reach age 18.
The government does not grant you the privilege to vote, you were guaranteed that right when you are born... even though you may not exercise that right until you are 18 (and are not in prison on a felony conviction).

and by giving you that 'right' to vote youre also given the right NOT to vote. which is a right we here in australia do not have. though its really about getting your name marked off the roll... after that you can draw little piggies all over your ballot papers if you feel like it.

...
I cannot imagine that happening over here... we have way too many nimrods wearing tinfoil hats and armed to the teeth that would go berserk.
Yes... ours is a right to vote or not vote. To which the vast majority chooses not to vote... which explains a 23% voter turnout.
...
And yes... we have the right to marry or not to marry. If it were a priviledge... we would need to seek permission to marry with the possible outcome of denial. That is not how it should be... regardless of what the majority of the people believe.

we dont have a bill of rights... thats the difference. voting is compulsory.

is it really a right to marry??? i just figured it was some cultural thing denied couples who are not male-female.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

and by giving you that 'right' to vote youre also given the right NOT to vote. which is a right we here in australia do not have. though its really about getting your name marked off the roll... after that you can draw little piggies all over your ballot papers if you feel like it.

...
I cannot imagine that happening over here... we have way too many nimrods wearing tinfoil hats and armed to the teeth that would go berserk.
Yes... ours is a right to vote or not vote. To which the vast majority chooses not to vote... which explains a 23% voter turnout.
...
And yes... we have the right to marry or not to marry. If it were a priviledge... we would need to seek permission to marry with the possible outcome of denial. That is not how it should be... regardless of what the majority of the people believe.

we dont have a bill of rights... thats the difference. voting is compulsory.

is it really a right to marry??? i just figured it was some cultural thing denied couples who are not male-female.

...
I think it comes from the catch all summary, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".
If two guys make each other happy... who am I (or the church or the state) to deny them?

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

we dont have a bill of rights... thats the difference. voting is compulsory.

is it really a right to marry??? i just figured it was some cultural thing denied couples who are not male-female.

...
I think it comes from the catch all summary, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".
If two guys make each other happy... who am I (or the church or the state) to deny them?

thanks for the clarification. and i agree.. who are we to deny 2 people to marry of they so choose, regardless of their sex.