You know you guys really scare me sometimes. It's amazing how hateful you are towards someone you've never met just because I disagree with your politics.
As for Mearsheimer, I've taken classes with him, and taken the opportunity to speak with him personally. The man is a brilliant political theorist, but his knowledge of history leaves a lot to be desired, and his knowledge of the Middle East is especially thin. I have a lot of respect for his theoretical work, but all the other stuff about the "Lobby," etc (at least what I've read, which is a lot of it) is shoddy scholarship at best, and at worst verges on outright racism.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Ok, Outlaw, let me put it to you this way. The history of this conflict can't be changed, and what the two of us think about that history really doesn't matter. The refugees aren't going to be able to return to their previous homes. That is simply a fact. Israel won't accept them. A bi-national state isn't going to happen either, unless somehow both the Israelis and the Palestinians decide that that is what they want for themselves, but I find that a very unlikely near-term scenario. At the end of the day this conflict can only be ended by the parties involved, and the most the rest of us can do is to try to help them move towards peace, and (I hope eventually) reconciliation.
So what troubles me about your comments (and the same is true of Byrnzie) is that you don't seem (at least in my opinion, based on what I've seen you write) that interested in the actual resolution of the conflict. You just seem interested in expressing your outrage over historical injustices about which none of us can do anything. Wouldn't it be more productive to try to get better treatment for the refugees RIGHT NOW from the countries that host them? Or to push for more international investment in the Palestinian economy? Or maybe instead of painting all of Israel with one giant brush, you could think about trying to strengthen the many elements of Israeli society that are fighting for a just peace. You could donate money to Israeli human rights organizations, or groups that foster peaceful dialogue, or a whole range of other groups. Triumphant, for all our disagreements over politics and history, is at least involved in charity work that directly aids Palestinian children. I find that very noble, and is definitely something to be praised. And it's practical. You can talk about the illegitimacy of Israel all you want, but it isn't going anywhere, so wouldn't it be better to move on and try to make the best of reality as it is?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
"thank you. you know though, peace and freedom are such easy words to throw around. we have to do more than just say those words if we really want that to happen. do you know that hundreds of thousands of children in Gaza have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives? they deserve peace, freedom. life and hope. It's time for Palestinians and Israelis to share a just peace. it's time for freedom from occupation and it's time for equal rights.
every man dies. Not every man really lives. true that."
Triumphant Angel, I agree peace is an easy word to throw around.
What I don't agree with is that the Israelis should be forced to give up everything to give "peace" to Hezbollah and the rest of the bloodthirsty vultures in the Middle East.
Did you know Hezbollah is actually listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization?
Ok, Outlaw, let me put it to you this way. The history of this conflict can't be changed, and what the two of us think about that history really doesn't matter.
it's true that this history can't be changed but "what the two of us think about history" does matter. it is important to get the facts straight. where in the world is it ever acceptable to say history doesn't matter?
The refugees aren't going to be able to return to their previous homes. That is simply a fact. Israel won't accept them. A bi-national state isn't going to happen either, unless somehow both the Israelis and the Palestinians decide that that is what they want for themselves, but I find that a very unlikely near-term scenario. At the end of the day this conflict can only be ended by the parties involved, and the most the rest of us can do is to try to help them move towards peace, and (I hope eventually) reconciliation.
speaking of near-term scenarios, the two-state solution that you keep defending is highly unlikely, if at all even possible at this point. Israel is just going to keep increasing settlements in the West Bank and keep restricting Palestinians' lives through restriction of movement, stealing land, water, etc... eventually, Israel is going to walk straight into its own problems and the international community will no longer be able to sit by and let it continue its wanton destructive policies.
So what troubles me about your comments (and the same is true of Byrnzie) is that you don't seem (at least in my opinion, based on what I've seen you write) that interested in the actual resolution of the conflict. You just seem interested in expressing your outrage over historical injustices about which none of us can do anything.
No, I am extremely interested in resolving this conflict. The issue here is that because I don't want to resolve it your way, or a Zionist's way, then "I'm not interested in the actual resolution of the conflict." There has to be justice for those who were stripped of a homeland and for those who continue to live in the harshest conditions of refugee camps
Wouldn't it be more productive to try to get better treatment for the refugees RIGHT NOW from the countries that host them? Or to push for more international investment in the Palestinian economy? Or maybe instead of painting all of Israel with one giant brush, you could think about trying to strengthen the many elements of Israeli society that are fighting for a just peace. You could donate money to Israeli human rights organizations, or groups that foster peaceful dialogue, or a whole range of other groups. Triumphant, for all our disagreements over politics and history, is at least involved in charity work that directly aids Palestinian children. I find that very noble, and is definitely something to be praised. And it's practical. You can talk about the illegitimacy of Israel all you want, but it isn't going anywhere, so wouldn't it be better to move on and try to make the best of reality as it is?
lol, do you know anything about me? I don't need to sit here and defend myself and tell you all I'm doing, we're having a discussion about Israel-Palestine, what kind of foolish shit is this?
What I don't agree with is that the Israelis should be forced to give up everything to give "peace" to Hezbollah and the rest of the bloodthirsty vultures in the Middle East.
yeah, those filthy arabs that just suck the blood straight out of jews! we should kill all the arabs!!!!!!
Did you know Hezbollah is actually listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization?
Triumphant, for all our disagreements over politics and history, is at least involved in charity work that directly aids Palestinian children. I find that very noble, and is definitely something to be praised. And it's practical. ?
TA is to be praised but there are a lot of people aiding the Palestinians, either directly (in the field) or indirectly (via organisations or financially). But the thing is... we shouldn't be. This situation should not exist.
And why should 'we' focus on making the life of the palestinian refugees in other countries better? How about focusing on making life in THEIR country what it should be.
You present the current situation as a fait accompli and nothing can be done so move on... I can understand why Israel doesn't want to 'dwell' on the past since it's creation.... we all do. But blinkers and shrugging of shoulders is not the solution.
To Electric Delta - the israelis forced to give up everything???? :roll:
What is the point in dwelling on what happened in 1948?! Israel isn't going to agree to its own dissolution, so what the hell is the point of this discussion?!
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
"yeah, those filthy arabs that just suck the blood straight out of jews! we should kill all the arabs!!!!!!"
Here's a better thought, "Outlaw", instead of our "killing the arabs," maybe the Palestinians should stop firing rockets and blowing themselves up in shopping malls. Give me a break.
"yeah, those filthy arabs that just suck the blood straight out of jews! we should kill all the arabs!!!!!!"
Here's a better thought, "Outlaw", instead of our "killing the arabs," maybe the Palestinians should stop firing rockets and blowing themselves up in shopping malls. Give me a break.
when is the last time that happened electric delta????
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
What is the point in dwelling on what happened in 1948?! Israel isn't going to agree to its own dissolution, so what the hell is the point of this discussion?!
the point in talking about what happend in 1948 is the same point as talking about any history. you don't think what happend in 1948 is in any way related to where we are today with this conflict?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"yeah, those filthy arabs that just suck the blood straight out of jews! we should kill all the arabs!!!!!!"
Here's a better thought, "Outlaw", instead of our "killing the arabs," maybe the Palestinians should stop firing rockets and blowing themselves up in shopping malls. Give me a break.
except the year leading up to the start of the blockade there was only a single suicide bombing......and as for the rockets....more israeli's die in traffic every year than have died total from the rockets and the overwhelming majority are fired at sderot, which used to be an arab village of najd until the city was wiped out and sderot built on top of the ashes....
maybe if israel stopped stealing land that isn't theirs and stopped expanding their illegal settlements and all their other crimes there wouldn't be any reaction of firing rockets.
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Triumphant, for all our disagreements over politics and history, is at least involved in charity work that directly aids Palestinian children. I find that very noble, and is definitely something to be praised. And it's practical. ?
there are a lot of people aiding the Palestinians, either directly (in the field) or indirectly (via organisations or financially). But the thing is... we shouldn't be. This situation should not exist.
And why should 'we' focus on making the life of the palestinian refugees in other countries better? How about focusing on making life in THEIR country what it should be.
You present the current situation as a fait accompli and nothing can be done so move on... I can understand why Israel doesn't want to 'dwell' on the past since it's creation.... we all do. But blinkers and shrugging of shoulders is not the solution.
you are so out of line yosi. You have no right to single me out to use against _outlaw and make false accusations just because it's suits your agenda. he is more proactive and productive than i'll ever be. just because people aren't openly talking about what they are doing, doesn't mean it's not happening. far from it.
What is the point in dwelling on what happened in 1948?! Israel isn't going to agree to its own dissolution, so what the hell is the point of this discussion?!
in that case, Israel isn't going to agree to a just two-state solution either, which only becomes more apparent every day, so what the fuck is the point of discussing it in general?
yosi thinks it's perfectly fine to ignore the injustices Israel has committed over the past several years. "forget about the past, let's look to the future".... funny that this comes from Israel, who only invokes the pains the holocaust has caused the jewish people all the time. i guess remembering historical injustices is only ok when it's not you who committed them?
the point of discussing the one-state solution is that a two-state solution is becoming impossible, especially with the ongoing increase of settlements in east jerusalem and the west bank. land swaps may have been acceptable to the palestinian leadership but that could only go so far and eventually Israel won't be able to justify the land it's stealing by suggesting "land swaps." Keep in mind that the land it's stealing is the most fertile land in the west bank. additionally the two-state solution marginalizes the palestinians currently living in israel and facing discrimination as well as the millions living in refugee camps waiting to return. it is illogical to assume that these palestinians should simply ignore the fact that their homes were taken from them and that nothing will be done about this.
i'm sure apartheid south africa suggested that black people should ignore the injustices committed to them and should simply try to make their lives in the bantustans better...
JERUSALEM — Israeli bulldozers destroyed six buildings, including at least three homes, in contested east Jerusalem on Tuesday, resuming the demolition of Palestinian property after a halt aimed at encouraging peace talks.
Jerusalem house demolitions are a volatile issue because of conflicting Israeli and Palestinian claims to the city's eastern sector. Israel sees it as part of its capital city, while Palestinians want it for their own future capital.
The municipality said none of the structures razed were homes, and that all had been illegally built and were not populated. The demolitions were carried out by a court order, the municipality said in a statement.
But Palestinians disputed those claims, saying three of the demolished structures were homes and one was a warehouse. Two daybeds and bags crammed with children's clothing and kitchen utensils were strewn outside one of the buildings.
Basem Isawi, 48, an unemployed contractor, stood stony-faced amid the rubble of his unfinished home, forbidding his six children to come out of the nearby house where they currently live to see what had happened to it.
Isawi said he built the almost-finished home illegally for about $25,000 because he was convinced the municipality would deny him a permit. He had been notified of the impending demolition but did not know when it was slated to happen, he said.
"We watched them destroy the house, and we couldn't do anything," Isawi said. Police said the demolitions were carried out without incident.
Since October, no houses had been demolished in the eastern sector of the city until Tuesday. The demolitions seemed to indicate a move away from the unofficial freeze on them, which Israel imposed after much criticism from Washington.
On Monday, a Jerusalem municipal committee gave preliminary approval to 32 new apartments in a Jewish neighborhood in east Jerusalem, rolling back a decision earlier this year to quietly put new projects on hold. And in recent weeks, the municipality has begun demolishing small, uninhabited structures, such as sheds, built without permits in east Jerusalem.
Palestinians say both demolitions and settlement construction undermine their efforts to establish a state on territory Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war.
Saeb Erekat, an aide to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the demolitions. "This government of Israel has been given the choice between settlements and peace and it is obvious that it chose settlements," he said.
The office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would not comment Tuesday.
In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said the U.S. is "concerned" about the demolitions and disagrees with some aspects of Israeli policy. "We continue to oppose and will make clear to the government of Israel that we oppose unilateral actions that prejudge negotiations," he said.
Israel says it is only enforcing the law against building violations, but Palestinians say discriminatory planning practices make it impossible for them to get permits, leaving them no choice but to build illegally and risk demolition.
About a third of Jerusalem's 750,000 residents are Palestinian. They have residency status in Jerusalem and receive Israeli social benefits, but do not hold Israeli citizenship.
Also Tuesday, Hamas police in Gaza clashed with demonstrators from a hardline Islamist group.
The Hizb ut-Tahrir movement, which advocates a world run according to Islamic law, wanted to demonstrate in Gaza City but were refused permission. Several dozen backers defied the ban and threw rocks at police, who fired in the air, wounding a bystander, hospital officials and Hamas said.
Hizb ut-Tahrir said dozens of its backers were arrested. It was the first known clash between the Islamic rulers of Gaza and the movement.
Later Tuesday, one Palestinian was killed and four wounded in a clash on the Gaza border, Gaza hospital officials said. Palestinians said Israeli forces fired tank shells and they responded with mortars. The Israeli military said suspicious figures approached the border fence and soldiers fired at them.
A bulldozer demolishes a house in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hanina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010. Israeli bulldozers destroyed at least two homes and two other buildings in contested east Jerusalem on Tuesday, resuming the demolition of Palestinian property after a halt aimed at encouraging peace talks. (AP Photo/Olivier Fitoussi)
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Triumphant, I am so very sorry that I paid you a compliment. From now on I promise only to insult you.
Outlaw, Israelis do not want a one-state solution. What you are proposing is to force Israelis to accept an outcome which would mean the dissolution of their state. How is that just or democratic?
Regarding 1948, I am not saying that history should be forgotten, I'm just saying that you can't undo history, so what is the point in dwelling on history in a manner that is utterly unproductive when it comes to today's conflict? If you were talking about both sides setting up some sort of truth and reconciliation commission to go over the crimes of both sides that would be one thing. But your discussion of history is aimed solely at arguing that Israel's very existence is a crime, and that the state should therefore be wiped out. That isn't going to happen, so you aren't adding anything productive to the conversation. And I actually find what you're saying deeply offensive, and somewhat racist.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
But your discussion of history is aimed solely at arguing that Israel's very existence is a crime, and that the state should therefore be wiped out.
No one is suggesting that Israel should be wiped out. :roll: What is racist is Israel not wanting the Palestinians, who were the original inhabitants of the land before Israel's creation and who were chased from their homes, to return where they belong for fear of the 'jewishness' being lost or 'overpowered' by arabs.
I'm just saying that you can't undo history, so what is the point in dwelling on history in a manner that is utterly unproductive when it comes to today's conflict?
History cannot be undone but amends can be made therefore the 'dwelling' is valid. But Israel is not interested in making amends.
Comments
As for Mearsheimer, I've taken classes with him, and taken the opportunity to speak with him personally. The man is a brilliant political theorist, but his knowledge of history leaves a lot to be desired, and his knowledge of the Middle East is especially thin. I have a lot of respect for his theoretical work, but all the other stuff about the "Lobby," etc (at least what I've read, which is a lot of it) is shoddy scholarship at best, and at worst verges on outright racism.
So what troubles me about your comments (and the same is true of Byrnzie) is that you don't seem (at least in my opinion, based on what I've seen you write) that interested in the actual resolution of the conflict. You just seem interested in expressing your outrage over historical injustices about which none of us can do anything. Wouldn't it be more productive to try to get better treatment for the refugees RIGHT NOW from the countries that host them? Or to push for more international investment in the Palestinian economy? Or maybe instead of painting all of Israel with one giant brush, you could think about trying to strengthen the many elements of Israeli society that are fighting for a just peace. You could donate money to Israeli human rights organizations, or groups that foster peaceful dialogue, or a whole range of other groups. Triumphant, for all our disagreements over politics and history, is at least involved in charity work that directly aids Palestinian children. I find that very noble, and is definitely something to be praised. And it's practical. You can talk about the illegitimacy of Israel all you want, but it isn't going anywhere, so wouldn't it be better to move on and try to make the best of reality as it is?
every man dies. Not every man really lives. true that."
Triumphant Angel, I agree peace is an easy word to throw around.
What I don't agree with is that the Israelis should be forced to give up everything to give "peace" to Hezbollah and the rest of the bloodthirsty vultures in the Middle East.
Did you know Hezbollah is actually listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization?
No, I am extremely interested in resolving this conflict. The issue here is that because I don't want to resolve it your way, or a Zionist's way, then "I'm not interested in the actual resolution of the conflict." There has to be justice for those who were stripped of a homeland and for those who continue to live in the harshest conditions of refugee camps lol, do you know anything about me? I don't need to sit here and defend myself and tell you all I'm doing, we're having a discussion about Israel-Palestine, what kind of foolish shit is this?
LOL
Damn.. and here I was thinking Israel was a fine example of equal rights and opportunities (as you seem to mention every time you can)....
The thing is, I don't think I could trust them. International and independent human rights organisations, yes - of course.
TA is to be praised but there are a lot of people aiding the Palestinians, either directly (in the field) or indirectly (via organisations or financially). But the thing is... we shouldn't be. This situation should not exist.
And why should 'we' focus on making the life of the palestinian refugees in other countries better? How about focusing on making life in THEIR country what it should be.
You present the current situation as a fait accompli and nothing can be done so move on... I can understand why Israel doesn't want to 'dwell' on the past since it's creation.... we all do. But blinkers and shrugging of shoulders is not the solution.
To Electric Delta - the israelis forced to give up everything???? :roll:
Here's a better thought, "Outlaw", instead of our "killing the arabs," maybe the Palestinians should stop firing rockets and blowing themselves up in shopping malls. Give me a break.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
except the year leading up to the start of the blockade there was only a single suicide bombing......and as for the rockets....more israeli's die in traffic every year than have died total from the rockets and the overwhelming majority are fired at sderot, which used to be an arab village of najd until the city was wiped out and sderot built on top of the ashes....
maybe if israel stopped stealing land that isn't theirs and stopped expanding their illegal settlements and all their other crimes there wouldn't be any reaction of firing rockets.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yosi thinks it's perfectly fine to ignore the injustices Israel has committed over the past several years. "forget about the past, let's look to the future".... funny that this comes from Israel, who only invokes the pains the holocaust has caused the jewish people all the time. i guess remembering historical injustices is only ok when it's not you who committed them?
the point of discussing the one-state solution is that a two-state solution is becoming impossible, especially with the ongoing increase of settlements in east jerusalem and the west bank. land swaps may have been acceptable to the palestinian leadership but that could only go so far and eventually Israel won't be able to justify the land it's stealing by suggesting "land swaps." Keep in mind that the land it's stealing is the most fertile land in the west bank. additionally the two-state solution marginalizes the palestinians currently living in israel and facing discrimination as well as the millions living in refugee camps waiting to return. it is illogical to assume that these palestinians should simply ignore the fact that their homes were taken from them and that nothing will be done about this.
i'm sure apartheid south africa suggested that black people should ignore the injustices committed to them and should simply try to make their lives in the bantustans better...
Israeli bulldozers raze 6 east Jerusalem buildings
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38218480/ns ... tn_africa/
by DIAA HADID
Associated Press Writer
updated 7/13/2010 6:54:03 PM ET
JERUSALEM — Israeli bulldozers destroyed six buildings, including at least three homes, in contested east Jerusalem on Tuesday, resuming the demolition of Palestinian property after a halt aimed at encouraging peace talks.
Jerusalem house demolitions are a volatile issue because of conflicting Israeli and Palestinian claims to the city's eastern sector. Israel sees it as part of its capital city, while Palestinians want it for their own future capital.
The municipality said none of the structures razed were homes, and that all had been illegally built and were not populated. The demolitions were carried out by a court order, the municipality said in a statement.
But Palestinians disputed those claims, saying three of the demolished structures were homes and one was a warehouse. Two daybeds and bags crammed with children's clothing and kitchen utensils were strewn outside one of the buildings.
Basem Isawi, 48, an unemployed contractor, stood stony-faced amid the rubble of his unfinished home, forbidding his six children to come out of the nearby house where they currently live to see what had happened to it.
Isawi said he built the almost-finished home illegally for about $25,000 because he was convinced the municipality would deny him a permit. He had been notified of the impending demolition but did not know when it was slated to happen, he said.
"We watched them destroy the house, and we couldn't do anything," Isawi said. Police said the demolitions were carried out without incident.
Since October, no houses had been demolished in the eastern sector of the city until Tuesday. The demolitions seemed to indicate a move away from the unofficial freeze on them, which Israel imposed after much criticism from Washington.
On Monday, a Jerusalem municipal committee gave preliminary approval to 32 new apartments in a Jewish neighborhood in east Jerusalem, rolling back a decision earlier this year to quietly put new projects on hold. And in recent weeks, the municipality has begun demolishing small, uninhabited structures, such as sheds, built without permits in east Jerusalem.
Palestinians say both demolitions and settlement construction undermine their efforts to establish a state on territory Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war.
Saeb Erekat, an aide to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the demolitions. "This government of Israel has been given the choice between settlements and peace and it is obvious that it chose settlements," he said.
The office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would not comment Tuesday.
In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said the U.S. is "concerned" about the demolitions and disagrees with some aspects of Israeli policy. "We continue to oppose and will make clear to the government of Israel that we oppose unilateral actions that prejudge negotiations," he said.
Israel says it is only enforcing the law against building violations, but Palestinians say discriminatory planning practices make it impossible for them to get permits, leaving them no choice but to build illegally and risk demolition.
About a third of Jerusalem's 750,000 residents are Palestinian. They have residency status in Jerusalem and receive Israeli social benefits, but do not hold Israeli citizenship.
Also Tuesday, Hamas police in Gaza clashed with demonstrators from a hardline Islamist group.
The Hizb ut-Tahrir movement, which advocates a world run according to Islamic law, wanted to demonstrate in Gaza City but were refused permission. Several dozen backers defied the ban and threw rocks at police, who fired in the air, wounding a bystander, hospital officials and Hamas said.
Hizb ut-Tahrir said dozens of its backers were arrested. It was the first known clash between the Islamic rulers of Gaza and the movement.
Later Tuesday, one Palestinian was killed and four wounded in a clash on the Gaza border, Gaza hospital officials said. Palestinians said Israeli forces fired tank shells and they responded with mortars. The Israeli military said suspicious figures approached the border fence and soldiers fired at them.
A bulldozer demolishes a house in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hanina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010. Israeli bulldozers destroyed at least two homes and two other buildings in contested east Jerusalem on Tuesday, resuming the demolition of Palestinian property after a halt aimed at encouraging peace talks. (AP Photo/Olivier Fitoussi)
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Outlaw, Israelis do not want a one-state solution. What you are proposing is to force Israelis to accept an outcome which would mean the dissolution of their state. How is that just or democratic?
Regarding 1948, I am not saying that history should be forgotten, I'm just saying that you can't undo history, so what is the point in dwelling on history in a manner that is utterly unproductive when it comes to today's conflict? If you were talking about both sides setting up some sort of truth and reconciliation commission to go over the crimes of both sides that would be one thing. But your discussion of history is aimed solely at arguing that Israel's very existence is a crime, and that the state should therefore be wiped out. That isn't going to happen, so you aren't adding anything productive to the conversation. And I actually find what you're saying deeply offensive, and somewhat racist.
History cannot be undone but amends can be made therefore the 'dwelling' is valid. But Israel is not interested in making amends.