interview with Kenneth O'Keefe - Gaza flotilla Activist

Pepe Silvia

_outlaw wrote:

does anyone see now why people refer to hamas rockets as fireworks? and it's funny how in the video, the interviewer, just like most israel apologists, says that "it doesn't matter how many people these rockets kill, theyre sent with the intention of killing people." tell me, what about the blockade that restricts building supplies, medicine, food, etc? is that not done with the intention of killing people?

straight from the asses mouth:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

fuck

Jason P wrote:

I feel the leaders of this ship put lives at risk with their actions. Intentional or not, they share responsibility along with the commandos.

No they don't. The commandos are the ones who pulled the trigger, and they boarded a ship illegally in international waters.

tell me do you blame any of the captains for any deaths from the vessels that were boarded by somali pirates?

fuck

yosi wrote:

Ok, Outlaw, I'll put the same question to you. Do you support Hamas?

i support the palestinians' right to vote for whoever they want to in a democratic election.

i support the struggle of the palestinian people.

but do i support hamas? no not really, i think both hamas and fatah have many problems and my brother-in-law who is from Gaza has told me countless stories of the ridiculous things hamas does there.

what does this have to do with the flotilla or with the fact that the palestinians are forced to live under a brutal occupation whether in gaza or the west bank, or even inside israel?

rafie

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

Dude, I watched the video. Why do you keep insisting that I haven't? Because if my response to the video is different than yours then I must not have watched it?

no, because you seemed to be making claims that are untrue like saying he was "screaming wild-eyed" now you backtrack saying maybe wild-eyed is subjective, was your claim of him 'screaming' subjective, too?

your second response (the 1st being nothing but an eye roll) you said
"I especially liked the part where he goes on an extended rant about Israel's nefarious motivations, but as soon as he's asked about Hamas he turns on a dime and is suddenly reticent to speak for others. Classic, and so very familiar in style and tone."

which just isn't true. he said israel's actions show they do not want peace, she asked if hamas wants peace and he said he can't speak for them and then proceeded to denounce them. your 2nd response was very misleading and had someone read that and not seen the video it would seem he refused to say anything negative about hamas

look up rocket attacks, you will see the overwhelming majority are fired at sderot, which isn't an illegal settlement but there used to be an arab village there....until it was destroyed, the arabs forced out and sderot built on top of the ashes and was founded in 1953, a few years AFTER the UN partition plan and Israel's declaration of independence.

the other rocket attacks happened in:

Ganei Tal - which was an illegal settlement in the Gaza Stip until israel pulled out in 2005.

Netiv Ha'asara - which was founded in 1982 after the camp david accords forced them out of their previous illegal settlement and AFTER the UN partition plan and israeli declaration of independence..

Bror Hayil - which was founded BEFORE the israeli declaration of independence and AFTER the UN partition plan.

Hod Hasharon - which became a city in 1990 AFTER the UN partition plan and israeli declaration of independence..

Bitha - again, created AFTER the UN partition plan and israeli declaration of independence.

Ashdod - founded in 1956 AFTER the UN partition plan and israeli declaration of independence..

Netivot - founded in 1956 AFTER the UN partition plan and israeli declaration of independence..

Pepe, I just want to get something clear, in your opinion (from what I understand by the post above) any Israeli settlement founded after november 29th 1947 (the UN partition plan) is illegal?

Pepe Silvia

Jason P wrote:

I don't think much of what goes on between Jewish / Mideast relations is rational. But I think that the leaders of the flotilla knew going in that Israel wasn't going to let them make it past the blockage.

I also understand they were trying to bring world attention to this situation (mission accomplished). But they did so at an unnecessary risk of their lives. Here are several suggestions for future flotillas:

i think the Malcolm X quote he gave sums up his feelings:
"If you're not willing to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary."

Jason P wrote:

1) Have the deck and boat well lit several miles before hitting the blockade line

2) Actually, scratch suggestion #1 . . . Don't try it under the cover of darkness. The Israelis have sophisticated tracking methods and are able to track you. Darkness significantly increases confusion and chaos.

they were staying in international waters for just this reason, they have said they were waiting until day break to move closer to Israel's waters

Jason P wrote:

3) Web cameras that broadcast live should be set up around the boat along all major corridors and rooms.

they DID have webcams and such on several parts of the boat but before raiding the flotilla Israel jammed all communications (which is also illegal to jam communications and radar) so the live feed couldn't go out and then they confiscated ALL the footage and equipment without returning any of it to their rightful owners. if Israel has nothing to hide why do they only release short, <1min clips?

Jason P wrote:

4) No weapons. No guns. No knives. No spoons. Nothing.

they didn't have any guns

Jason P wrote:

5) Stage a sit in / chain yourself to the boat in protest

I feel the leaders of this ship put lives at risk with their actions. Intentional or not, they share responsibility along with the commandos.

is that really a reasonable action when the commandos are opening fire and shooting people including 1 from <1 1/2 ft away twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head? i really can't think of too many people that would just sit down in the middle of that

fuck

yosi wrote:

Ok, this is very simple, any community that is inside sovereign Israeli territory and not either in Gaza (there used to be settlements in Gaza, but there are none there any longer) or in the West Bank, are not illegal. What exactly is wrong with Israel establishing communities within its own borders? Again, Sderot, Ashdod, etc are not illegal under any definition of the term.

hahaha, funny you mention 'sovereignty' since we all know that Israel is the country that most has no respect for sovereignty at all! in fact, the attack on the flotilla is proof! they attacked a turkish-flag bearing boat in international waters. can you imagine if iranian commandos boarded an israeli ship in international waters? it'd be considered an act of war by everyone.

additionally, Lebanon has officially recorded nearly 7000 Israeli violations (by land, sea, and air) of UNSC 1701 since 2006.

Israel obviously has no respect for the sovereignty of the Gaza territory which it claims it no longer occupies.

Pepe Silvia

rafie wrote:

Pepe, I just want to get something clear, in your opinion (from what I understand by the post above) any Israeli settlement founded after november 29th 1947 (the UN partition plan) is illegal?

no but the manner in which many of those places were founded would make people a little pissed. i wonder what would happen if 50 years ago mexico destroyed Tuscon and built a city on top of it?

yosi

_outlaw wrote:

yosi wrote:

Ok, Outlaw, I'll put the same question to you. Do you support Hamas?

i support the palestinians' right to vote for whoever they want to in a democratic election.

i support the struggle of the palestinian people.

but do i support hamas? no not really, i think both hamas and fatah have many problems and my brother-in-law who is from Gaza has told me countless stories of the ridiculous things hamas does there.

what does this have to do with the flotilla or with the fact that the palestinians are forced to live under a brutal occupation whether in gaza or the west bank, or even inside israel?

I'm just curious, because you seem so quick to dismiss the problems of Hamas and lay all blame exclusively on Israel. So a follow up question, do you think Hamas shares any portion of the blame whatsoever for the continuation of the conflict?

fuck

rafie wrote:

Pepe, I just want to get something clear, in your opinion (from what I understand by the post above) any Israeli settlement founded after november 29th 1947 (the UN partition plan) is illegal?

of course not, ethnic cleansing is perfectly legal!

Jason P

Pepe Silvia wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I don't think much of what goes on between Jewish / Mideast relations is rational. But I think that the leaders of the flotilla knew going in that Israel wasn't going to let them make it past the blockage.

I also understand they were trying to bring world attention to this situation (mission accomplished). But they did so at an unnecessary risk of their lives. Here are several suggestions for future flotillas:

i think the Malcolm X quote he gave sums up his feelings:
"If you're not willing to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary."

Jason P wrote:

1) Have the deck and boat well lit several miles before hitting the blockade line

2) Actually, scratch suggestion #1 . . . Don't try it under the cover of darkness. The Israelis have sophisticated tracking methods and are able to track you. Darkness significantly increases confusion and chaos.

they were staying in international waters for just this reason, they have said they were waiting until day break to move closer to Israel's waters

Jason P wrote:

3) Web cameras that broadcast live should be set up around the boat along all major corridors and rooms.

they DID have webcams and such on several parts of the boat but before raiding the flotilla Israel jammed all communications (which is also illegal to jam communications and radar) so the live feed couldn't go out and then they confiscated ALL the footage and equipment without returning any of it to their rightful owners. if Israel has nothing to hide why do they only release short, <1min clips?

Jason P wrote:

4) No weapons. No guns. No knives. No spoons. Nothing.

they didn't have any guns

Jason P wrote:

5) Stage a sit in / chain yourself to the boat in protest

I feel the leaders of this ship put lives at risk with their actions. Intentional or not, they share responsibility along with the commandos.

is that really a reasonable action when the commandos are opening fire and shooting people including 1 from <1 1/2 ft away twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head? i really can't think of too many people that would just sit down in the middle of that

Allright Pepe, I concede defeat in this discussion. Pardon the pun, but it looks like I brought a knife to a gunfight.

Pepe & Yosi . . . good luck.

yosi

Pepe, so from your last post I understand that you recognize that the rockets are no longer being fired at "illegal settlements," but rather at communities inside Israel. So why do you keep claiming that the rockets are "mostly" being fired at "illegal settlements" when since 2005 they have been fired EXCLUSIVELY at communities in Israel proper?

fuck

yosi wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

yosi wrote:

Ok, Outlaw, I'll put the same question to you. Do you support Hamas?

i support the palestinians' right to vote for whoever they want to in a democratic election.

i support the struggle of the palestinian people.

but do i support hamas? no not really, i think both hamas and fatah have many problems and my brother-in-law who is from Gaza has told me countless stories of the ridiculous things hamas does there.

what does this have to do with the flotilla or with the fact that the palestinians are forced to live under a brutal occupation whether in gaza or the west bank, or even inside israel?

I'm just curious, because you seem so quick to dismiss the problems of Hamas and lay all blame exclusively on Israel. So a follow up question, do you think Hamas shares any portion of the blame whatsoever for the continuation of the conflict?

the whole notion of dividing blame only serves to decrease israel's responsibility in the conflict as the occupier and oppressor. i think hamas has certainly added to the division of the palestinian people which is a problem but it has nothing to do with israeli occupation and oppression which is the core of the issue in this conflict. i think hamas is just a name that could be replaced by any palestinian resistance organization and Israel is just using them as an excuse to help further their goals. indeed hamas has proven to be a little more difficult to deal with than israel had hoped - if fatah had control of gaza like israel and the US had hoped, then the land grab in the west bank would definitely be easier since news headlines would not be dominated by things like "Israel fucks up again and kills 9 civilians on a gaza-bound humanitarian aid mission"...

if this conflict is to end, then the responsibility lies on Israel, not hamas. so do i think hamas shares any portion of the blame for the continuation of the conflict? not in any way that's truly relevant. if israel wants peace they can have it any time they want

yosi

Ok, I disagree with you and think you're wrong about Hamas. Certainly Israel has a lot to do, but I think that even were Israel to start to do everything necessary for peace tomorrow Hamas would remain a roadblock. I just do not think there can be peace until Hamas is dealt with in some way, either through the organization changing itself or by the organization being suppressed by a more clear-sighted Palestinian leadership.

fuck

yosi wrote:

Ok, I disagree with you and think you're wrong about Hamas. Certainly Israel has a lot to do, but I think that even were Israel to start to do everything necessary for peace tomorrow Hamas would remain a roadblock. I just do not think there can be peace until Hamas is dealt with in some way, either through the organization changing itself or by the organization being suppressed by a more clear-sighted Palestinian leadership.

why? they have called for a two-state solution just like everyone else has. why has israel repeatedly ignored this? in fact, why has israel been acting AGAINST it by pushing forward with settlement expansion and home eviction/demolitions?

what roadblock does Hamas present?

yosi

Hamas, in my view, is an organization committed to the violent destruction of Israel. They say as much in plain language in their charter, which they refuse on principle to repudiate despite repeated calls that they do so in the cause of peace. In fact Hamas first came to prominence by introducing suicide bombings into this conflict in the mid-90's, in the middle of the Oslo process, at the exact moment when it seemed that peace was closest at hand. In other words Hamas has always done everything it could to UNDERMINE PEACE, not to further it. Hamas' ideology is totalitarian and antisemitic, which can again be plainly seen in their charter, as well as in much of the media they produce. They believe that all of historic Palestine is land given by God to Muslims, and as such they believe that it would be nothing less than heresy to renounce the claim to all the land, including Israel. They have said that they would accept a two state solution for a finite period of time (I believe it was 50 years), but they were very careful to frame this pronouncement in the context of Muhammad's tactical truce's during which he increased his strength so as to be victorious when hostility resumed, the clear implication being that Hamas would fully expect hostilities to resume eventually. This is hardly an acceptance of the two state solution. They refuse to even accept the legitimacy of Israel's existence in principle (as opposed to accepting its physical reality), which again doesn't indicate a desire for peaceful coexistence. I mean saying that Hamas wants peace with Israel is like saying that the Nazis wanted peace with Poland.

rafie

_outlaw wrote:

rafie wrote:

Pepe, I just want to get something clear, in your opinion (from what I understand by the post above) any Israeli settlement founded after november 29th 1947 (the UN partition plan) is illegal?

of course not, ethnic cleansing is perfectly legal!

How is your response here in any way connected to the question I asked Pepe? O.K. outlaw, I understand from this post that you believe that Israel has no right to exist at all. That kind of makes continuous debate with you kind of pointless. Have a good weekend, I am done with you.

fuck

yosi wrote:

Hamas, in my view, is an organization committed to the violent destruction of Israel. They say as much in plain language in their charter, which they refuse on principle to repudiate despite repeated calls that they do so in the cause of peace.

You know something? This is completely irrelevant. their charter is not relevant any longer because Hamas has called for a two-state solution - the same thing the entire international community has called for - "in the cause of peace." Unlike Israel. So... who really is committed to whose destruction?

In fact Hamas first came to prominence by introducing suicide bombings into this conflict in the mid-90's, in the middle of the Oslo process, at the exact moment when it seemed that peace was closest at hand. In other words Hamas has always done everything it could to UNDERMINE PEACE, not to further it.

...and yet, they've still called for a two-state solution and Israel has been ignoring this... why?

Hamas' ideology is totalitarian and antisemitic, which can again be plainly seen in their charter, as well as in much of the media they produce.

And Israel is anti-Arab, but atleast Hamas has called for a two-state solution... you know I can just keep repeating this every day because I know you'll just ignore it everytime. There's no response to it if you support Israel because how can you defend Israel when they have been doing everything to undermine the two-state solution which is supported by the entire world?

They believe that all of historic Palestine is land given by God to Muslims, and as such they believe that it would be nothing less than heresy to renounce the claim to all the land, including Israel.

that just sounds outright idiotic! Land is given to them by God? oh.. wait a minute... where have I heard this before... oh, the Zionist charter! How they believe that all the land is given by God to Jews and that it would be nothing less than heresy to renounce the claim to all the land... yes, in fact the Israeli foreign minister has basically said as much several times.

They have said that they would accept a two state solution for a finite period of time (I believe it was 50 years), but they were very careful to frame this pronouncement in the context of Muhammad's tactical truce's during which he increased his strength so as to be victorious when hostility resumed, the clear implication being that Hamas would fully expect hostilities to resume eventually. This is hardly an acceptance of the two state solution.

Uhh... this is just all bullshit. is this what the israeli propaganda machine feeds you? Hamas said that they would accept a two-state solution provided that a referendum that includes ALL Palestinians would support such a notion... israel, on the other hand, has not made any attempts at peace. in fact, they've only hindered all efforts with their ongoing settlement building, home evictions, and every now and then they like to remind the palestinians (or lebanese) how awesome they are by massacring a few thousand of them

They refuse to even accept the legitimacy of Israel's existence in principle (as opposed to accepting its physical reality), which again doesn't indicate a desire for peaceful coexistence. I mean saying that Hamas wants peace with Israel is like saying that the Nazis wanted peace with Poland.

[/quote][/quote]
haha nice Nazi comparison, of course if anyone made any comparison of Israel to the Nazis (which is actually a much more legitimate comparison than some broke down organization like Hamas) then you would flip out.

as for the notion of accepting Israel's existence, it's no excuse for Israel's lack of any effort to move forward- Israel has been doing everything to kill the two-state solution since even before Hamas became prominent - take a look at the increase in settlement building in the West Bank during the Oslo process - you think Hamas' suicide bombings is what hurt that? ha!

also: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la- ... ion-center

fuck

rafie wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

rafie wrote:

Pepe, I just want to get something clear, in your opinion (from what I understand by the post above) any Israeli settlement founded after november 29th 1947 (the UN partition plan) is illegal?

of course not, ethnic cleansing is perfectly legal!

How is your response here in any way connected to the question I asked Pepe? O.K. outlaw, I understand from this post that you believe that Israel has no right to exist at all. That kind of makes continuous debate with you kind of pointless. Have a good weekend, I am done with you.

I don't think the Apartheid regime in South Africa had any right to exist as a white supremacist state. I don't think the Nazi regime had any right to exist as a pure Aryan state. Likewise, you're absolutely right! I don't think Israel has any right to exist as a Jewish-only state, with no defined borders since they only keep stealing more Palestinian land. The notion of the Zionist entity is a racist, discriminatory one that should never be accepted because it is just absolutely disgusting. The fact that Zionists refuse to coexist with palestinians in a binational solution because it "threatens the existence of Israel as a jewish state" is absolutely disgusting. zionists would rather continue the conflict than give up their title as a jewish-supreme state. this of course not even mentioning the fact that israel is founded on ethnic cleansing, a fact not even worth debating. and what kind of argument are you going to bring up (if you choose to debate back): "oh, the americas were founded on ethnic cleansing too! remember the native americans??" that was fucking CENTURIES ago. there are people who are still alive who were kicked out of their homes waiting to return, there are MILLIONS of people living in refugee camps right now due to the creation of the zionist entity on their homeland. this is why i can never support the two-state solution because it does not have any justice for those who were kicked out of their homes and those massacred when the zionists took control of the land. it's unjust.

everyone (rightly) thinks if an Arab says to drive the jews out of palestine, it's ridiculous. well, that's exactly what the zionists did to the palestinians 60 years ago! that injustice should not be ignored as if it never happened.

Pepe Silvia

_outlaw wrote:

yosi wrote:

They believe that all of historic Palestine is land given by God to Muslims, and as such they believe that it would be nothing less than heresy to renounce the claim to all the land, including Israel.

that just sounds outright idiotic! Land is given to them by God? oh.. wait a minute... where have I heard this before... oh, the Zionist charter! How they believe that all the land is given by God to Jews and that it would be nothing less than heresy to renounce the claim to all the land... yes, in fact the Israeli foreign minister has basically said as much several times.

like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqKCOlpXx6Y

not only did god give them the land they are happy and proud they killed jesus and they will kill the cameraman and the Palestinians

yosi

This is a direct quote from the Hamas charter.

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

So yeah, Hamas believes God gave them the land. I don't believe that about the Jews. Neither did most of the people that established Israel (they were almost all stridently secular).