Financial discussion RE: Unlistenable 2010 Bootleg

This thread is intended to spark further discussion about some of the issues raised in the Unlistenable 2010 Bootlegs thread http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=134823&start=0. My thoughts below are in response to statements read in that thread. Long post here so if you want to skip to the part in red and ignore the rest - go for it.
Some people expressed a displeasure in receiving a CDR vs. a CD. Others have commented on how we get what we paid for (implying not to expect the best quality for an immediate print recording). Does that mean that if we pay more, we should expect something that had more labor/effort/cost put into it? I'm familiar with how mass production can actually make things cheaper, and the more of a product you sell, the lower the profit margin needs to be per item to still be profitable.. which are a few reasons I can think of that might explain why the Backspacer CD is being sold for less than the bootlegs (even cheaper in stores).. but you would think that if Kufala is burning on demand to fulfill orders, and they are using CDR's, the cost might be lower than the studio albums that have months worth of mixing, design, and marketing efforts wrapped up in them...
Some people expressed opinions that we need to be happy we have boots available that are better than any audience boot ever was and to stop complaining or PJ might just stop making/selling them to us. If we think PJ is making these boots available to us because they think we are nice and we deserve it and they aren't anticipating any profit - why wouldn't the boot be cheaper since the profit motive is missing? My guess is that providing official boots removes the market for audience boots and allows the artist to receive the income stream vs. a bootlegger.. therefore, IMO, it's an income stream where they are making a profit regardless of whether some fans are satisfied with the sound.
Discussion? Is it reasonable to pay $3 more for a bootleg that is described as not mixed and mastered like a studio album would be, is not marketed the same as a studio album so it doesn't carry the marketing expense or sharing of revenue with Target, and is produced on demand where there is no leftover inventory to write off? What are your theories for why a studio album is cheaper to purchase and sounds better?
Full disclosure - I'm willing to pay the price for any PJ CD (boot or studio). They could charge $35 for each new studio album with 6 songs and I'd probably buy it. I like the physical case/CD. I don't care if it is CDR or CD. I do think the official boots sound better than any audience recording. There are a few of the 2010 boots I've heard that do not sound like a good mix to me (i.e. Stone is missing).
Just for reference - These prices are from the PJ Goods section as of today:
Backspacer CD: 13.99
Avocado CD: 16.00
Riot Act CD: 13.00
Bootleg 2010 CD: 16.98
Bootleg 2009 CD: 16.98
Some people expressed a displeasure in receiving a CDR vs. a CD. Others have commented on how we get what we paid for (implying not to expect the best quality for an immediate print recording). Does that mean that if we pay more, we should expect something that had more labor/effort/cost put into it? I'm familiar with how mass production can actually make things cheaper, and the more of a product you sell, the lower the profit margin needs to be per item to still be profitable.. which are a few reasons I can think of that might explain why the Backspacer CD is being sold for less than the bootlegs (even cheaper in stores).. but you would think that if Kufala is burning on demand to fulfill orders, and they are using CDR's, the cost might be lower than the studio albums that have months worth of mixing, design, and marketing efforts wrapped up in them...
Some people expressed opinions that we need to be happy we have boots available that are better than any audience boot ever was and to stop complaining or PJ might just stop making/selling them to us. If we think PJ is making these boots available to us because they think we are nice and we deserve it and they aren't anticipating any profit - why wouldn't the boot be cheaper since the profit motive is missing? My guess is that providing official boots removes the market for audience boots and allows the artist to receive the income stream vs. a bootlegger.. therefore, IMO, it's an income stream where they are making a profit regardless of whether some fans are satisfied with the sound.
Discussion? Is it reasonable to pay $3 more for a bootleg that is described as not mixed and mastered like a studio album would be, is not marketed the same as a studio album so it doesn't carry the marketing expense or sharing of revenue with Target, and is produced on demand where there is no leftover inventory to write off? What are your theories for why a studio album is cheaper to purchase and sounds better?
Full disclosure - I'm willing to pay the price for any PJ CD (boot or studio). They could charge $35 for each new studio album with 6 songs and I'd probably buy it. I like the physical case/CD. I don't care if it is CDR or CD. I do think the official boots sound better than any audience recording. There are a few of the 2010 boots I've heard that do not sound like a good mix to me (i.e. Stone is missing).
Just for reference - These prices are from the PJ Goods section as of today:
Backspacer CD: 13.99
Avocado CD: 16.00
Riot Act CD: 13.00
Bootleg 2010 CD: 16.98
Bootleg 2009 CD: 16.98
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
My best guess is the economies of scales. The marginal cost of 500,000 to a million copies of backspacer is probably less than a few thousand bootleg discs. I doubt that PJ would charge more than necessary in order to fatten their wallets.
Pearl Jam:
Key Arena - Seattle, WA - Sep 21, 2009
Pacific Coliseum - Vancouver, BC - Sep 25, 2011
Key Arena - Seattle, WA - Dec 6, 2013
Eddie Vedder Solo:
Benaroya Hall - Seattle, WA - Jul 15, 2011
Sometimes we all make statements online which under our 'avatar' and 'handle' we'd never make in person or create a persona that is far from our real identity (this is the reason I post with me real name and my pic - you're talking to me - not my online alter ego). This is not aimed at anyone, but just saying it is easy to make anon remarks and statements - often in the that of the moment - that
If we all take the 'heat' and 'hyperbole' out of the discussion and base the comments on pure unemotive fact then we'll get somewhere.
In some posts, people made valid and constructive comments like 'you can't hear stone in the mix on X song on X boot'
In some posts people said 'these are shit and unlistenable'
You tell me which comment deserves fair consideration and which one deserves the scorn other posters heaped upon it?
Thanks
Thanks
I was backing up your remarks in regard to having this discussion without heat and just basing on facts, sorry i got rambling
I guess maybe this is why they say our brains need sleep in order to function properly... I didn't get enough last night
Personally, I will continue to buy as long as they continue to produce. I love having the boots for memoribillia, and the fact that the band knows its listeners care enough about their live shows to continue to do this is just so awesome. These are live recording, and the fact that they sound like being at a live show I enjoy, takes me back to the time and place, friends, people met... Why do people bitch when I most bands won't do this at all!! I feel as though people are becoming too spoiled. This is a luxury for fans, and to complain about it is ridiculous, if you don't like don't buy, simple.
Ok.. I think I need to clarify my purpose of making this post, or maybe I'm reading your post a bit defensively... but I'm not bitching or complaining here. Maybe you meant to make your post in the original thread? The purpose of this thread is to spark an unemotional discussion about the finances and marketing and such that goes into these products and pricing, etc based on issues raised in the other thread. That's all. Just friendly discussion.
Thanks
I apologize, I know that you did not mean to start anything, I made the mistake and should have made reference to the individual who started the other thread. By no means, did I mean to be defensive towards you, him, maybe? but you know, so I am sorry.
One more thing - I'm obviously not a lawyer, but does PJ have to share profits from their show bootlegs now, considering that the shows do consist primarily of songs recorded under Epic's management? The fact that Backspacer was released independently is not something to discount, as their profit margins I would imagine are quite large compared even to the bootlegs... even if Epic doesn't get paid, Kufala certainly take a cut.
In my opinion, the Pearl Jam bootlegs are a good value statement. Would I prefer paying $5 extra for higher quality mixing/mastering? Yes! But am I happy with things in their current state? You bet.
Sorry if this was incoherent at any given point - I'm trying!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
No more, No less!!, I don't expect perfection from a live performance by anyone!!
The bootleg recording quality, while important to me, doesn't have to be "studio quality."
I like the imperfections in the bootlegs... They just feel more natural to me.
Also if you compare the number of tracks on a studio album - 10 to 15 tracks, to what you get on a PJ Bootleg CD - 30-40 tracks...
I think we are getting an EXCELLENT value for the money.
Just my opinion!!!
'98: Seattle: Memorial Stadium 1 & 2
'00: Columbus: Polaris
'03: Columbus: Germain
'10: Columbus: Nationwide Arena
'11: East Troy: Alpine Valley - PJ20 1 & 2 + EV Detroit
'12: Missoula + EV Jacksonville 1 & 2
'13: Chicago / Pittsburgh / Buffalo / Seattle
'14: Cincinnati / St. Louis / Tulsa / Lincoln / Memphis / Detroit / Moline
'15: New York City - Global Citizen Festival
'16: Greenville / Hampton / Raleigh / Columbia / Lexington / Ottawa / Toronto 1 & 2 / Wrigley 1 & 2
'17: Brooklyn - Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony
'18: London 1 & 2 / Seattle 1 & 2 / Missoula / Wrigley 1
'22: Nashville / St. Louis
http://www.livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=170
I don't the band "owes" it to anyone to produce the boots, but I doubt I'll be purchasing any further in the future as the sound just isn't to my liking - I prefer audience boots, if well recorded. That's my decision, but I'm happy for others if they're happy with how they sound now. It's not terrible or unlistenable by any means, it's just a different style of mixing than from when Brett was producing them - for better or worse.
I think the argument "they're just bootlegs!" is weak, however - nobody's asking for perfection, my understanding of any unhappiness is just that they used to be mixed in a certain way and that's changed over time to something some people are less happy with. I don't think they should me made to feel ungrateful, they're customers voicing an opinion. If your favourite restaurant changed chef and the new chef started cooking in a different style to the old chef, some people are inevitably going to be unhappy - just because they're able to taste the difference between one way of cooking and another, doesn't mean they're too picky.
Some folks are happy to just eat whatever's served up, and good for them; it must be nice! I guess I wish the boots were still mixed like they were before, but hey I'm not ripping my hair out over it, it just is what it is. As long as people are still making audience recordings, I'm happy.
i think you've put it perfectly.
I'm happy with the boots, but I've never been as fussy when it comes to bootlegs as I am when it comes to studio albums or food for that matter. I usually only buy the shows I go to and regard them more as a document/momento of the night rather than a pristine recording that needs top be perfect. Like collectin the posts, ticket stubs and t-shirts at a show. i too have noticed different mixes and there are shows I prefer more than others, but as I said, it's not just about the sound for me.
I know the mix will vary depending on what the venue needed, but frankly when I'm listening to the MSG '10 cd, it's annoying to not hear the singer. I'd rather have a soundboard where I can't hear the guitarist and can hear the singer than the other way around.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
|11.6.00Seattle|6.6.03Vegas|6.7.03PHX|5.25.06Boston|7.22.06Gorge|7.23.06Gorge|9.21.09Seattle|9.22.09Seattle |10.6.09LA|11.19.13PHX|11.29.13Portland|12.6.13Seattle |10.22.14Denver| 8.8.18 Seattle | 8.10.18 Seattle
EV Solo |7.15.11 Benaroya|7.16.11 Benaroya|4.13.12PHX|10.30.14Redmond|
TOTD 11.11.16 San Fran
9/22/05 - Halifax
6/19/08 - Camden
6/28/08 - Mansfield
9/07/11 - Montreal
5/05/16 - Quebec City
Do we feel like we are getting a good a deal for our $$$??
I still can't believe how much GREAT music we get for so little money!!!
I know NOTHING compares to seeing a LIVE performance , but Look at how much a ticket to just one show costs.... Add in travel, hotel rooms, food & drink and most of us can't afford to go to more that 1 or 2 shows per tour. But for $17.00 I can enjoy a pretty decent LIVE documentation of a show that I wouldn't have been able to hear, if the boots weren't available.
To me, that's a pretty good bargain!!!
'98: Seattle: Memorial Stadium 1 & 2
'00: Columbus: Polaris
'03: Columbus: Germain
'10: Columbus: Nationwide Arena
'11: East Troy: Alpine Valley - PJ20 1 & 2 + EV Detroit
'12: Missoula + EV Jacksonville 1 & 2
'13: Chicago / Pittsburgh / Buffalo / Seattle
'14: Cincinnati / St. Louis / Tulsa / Lincoln / Memphis / Detroit / Moline
'15: New York City - Global Citizen Festival
'16: Greenville / Hampton / Raleigh / Columbia / Lexington / Ottawa / Toronto 1 & 2 / Wrigley 1 & 2
'17: Brooklyn - Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony
'18: London 1 & 2 / Seattle 1 & 2 / Missoula / Wrigley 1
'22: Nashville / St. Louis
http://www.livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=170
I know what you mean. It's funny that back in '03, we got to download the 64kbps tracks hours after the show then waited a few day's to get the silver CD's in the mail. The '05's, we got the mp3's hours after the show, and imo, they sounded great (wish though it was pressed on CD & available via flac style). From '06 & on, it's been a long wait. Their method isn't the same anymore, and it's all about the touch of mixing & editing. I wish it was all coming directly from the soundboard. No editing, no mixing, no subtracting, all untouched audio from the show. Just the raw feed from the show. Why it takes so long to get these recordings out to the fans.
Hey D!
Ya know, I think those 2005 mp3s sound better than any of the flacs from 2006 on!
9/22/05 - Halifax
6/19/08 - Camden
6/28/08 - Mansfield
9/07/11 - Montreal
5/05/16 - Quebec City
I think The Pixies did the same thing back in '04. After the show you would wait by the merchandise table & buy that show's audio on freshly pressed CD's. I forget now if they were silver Cd's or burned Cdr's. I used to download the Flac's off this cool site the day after!
If Pearl Jam ever did something like this, I would love a 2nd job working @ the back with racks of burners, making copies of the show. I've got experience in dealing with cdr's & dvdr's! Trust me!