Ehud Barak says no international investigation

Pepe Silvia

he says he wants to put that on the shelf for a certain time while israel moves ahead with their own independent investigation :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NizarAbboud ... RDBOgIMDY0

catefrances

well thats that then.... we can breathe a sigh of relief that the israelis are onto it. :roll:

Pepe Silvia

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... d-1.297586

Barak urges UN to shelve plan to probe Gaza flotilla raid
Defense Minister: Israel will hold Lebanon accountable for any blockade-busting ships it sends to Gaza, any violence that erupts as a result.

By Reuters and The Associated Press

NEW YORK - Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Monday urged UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to shelve plans for a UN-backed independent investigation of the deadly Israeli commando raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla last month.

Speaking to reporters after he met with Ban in New York, Barak said he told Ban the UN should suspend plans to set up an inquiry into Israel's May 31 interception, in which the Israel killed nine Turks, of the six-ship Gaza aid convoy.

"We expressed our view that for the time being, as long as ... new flotillas are in the preparation, it's probably better to leave it [a UN investigation] on the shelf for a certain
time," Barak said.

He said the five-person panel Israel has established, which includes two foreign observers, would be sufficient for now.

"We are moving ahead with our independent investigation, which we believe is clearly independent, reliable, credible and should be allowed to work," Barak said.

It was not clear if Barak meant Israel might accept Ban's proposal at a later date.

After his meeting with Ban, Barak stated that Israel will hold Lebanon accountable for the blockade-busting ship headed for Gaza, as well as any violence which might erupt as a result of Israel's attempt to stop.

Lebanon said earlier on Monday it would allow an aid ship bound for the Gaza Strip to sail despite warnings from Israel that it had the right to use all necessary means to stop ships
that try to sail from Lebanon to Gaza.

"we see the government of Lebanon responsible by granting permission for another ship with activists and aid on board to embark for Cyprus on a new attempt to reach the Palestinian territory," Barak told reporters Monday.

"As a result [of an Israeli attempt to stop the flotilla from reaching Gaza], there could be friction that could lead to violence, which is totally unnecessary," Barak said in a brief statement.

The Turkish group that sent the flotilla intercepted by the Israelis on May 31 has also vowed to send more ships to the blockaded territory, which is home to 1.5 million Palestinians.

polaris_x

my theory on gaza

israel's motive for the blockade on gaza has always been said to be a military blockade on it's enemy, hamas ... yet, every independent observer has indicated that it fails in every aspect because the blockade has done nothing but allow hamas to grow both in popularity but in it's coffers ...

so, my approach in general is always to look for the obvious ... sometimes the obvious doesn't appear to be so because of preconceived notions ... in this case - i believe the blockade on gaza has done exactly what it was meant to do ... punish the civilian but at the same time strengthen hamas ... the reason being that a strong hamas presence means any action towards peace can be delayed ... let's face it ... israel wants nothing to do with peace as it relates to a two-state solution ... it currently controls everything and continues to expand - there is no motivation to cede from this current course ... the actual casualty rate suffered on the israeli side is nominal compared to the palestinian side and is likely considered worthwhile if it means not having to succumb to a two-state solution ...

so, the reality is that no matter the lip service paid to the hamas rhetoric ... israel currently needs hamas ... similar to how the US needed saddam ... without saddam - the US could not invade iraq ... without hamas - israel would be forced to negotiate and withdraw ... something israel has no interest in doing ...

puremagic

So Israel threatens the UN with attacks against Lebanon, not Turkey, unless they are allowed to conduct their own investigation into their raid on the flotilla. Someone needs to remind Barak that Israel killed 8 Turkish citizens and 1 American citizen, not to mention the injured. Of course, the US is silent on this matter, but it no longer matters because the

United States Supreme Court just upheld in a 6-3 ruling that

-The First Amendment does not protect humanitarian groups or others who advise foreign terrorist organizations, even if the support is aimed at legal activities or peaceful settlement of disputes, the Supreme Court ruled Monday. -

http://www.qword.com/search.php?lang=en ... 0&q=google

So, Pepe, it doesn’t make a difference now about how the people of Gaza are treated, unless, they can defeat Israel in a war, they’re fucked. Unless, any other Arab country wants to go to war with Israel, they’re fucked.

The U.S. Supreme Court just informed the world’s victims of political violence that you’re on your own unless, of course, they or their land is of some value to us.

Pepe Silvia

polaris_x wrote:

my theory on gaza

israel's motive for the blockade on gaza has always been said to be a military blockade on it's enemy, hamas ... yet, every independent observer has indicated that it fails in every aspect because the blockade has done nothing but allow hamas to grow both in popularity but in it's coffers ...

so, my approach in general is always to look for the obvious ... sometimes the obvious doesn't appear to be so because of preconceived notions ... in this case - i believe the blockade on gaza has done exactly what it was meant to do ... punish the civilian but at the same time strengthen hamas ... the reason being that a strong hamas presence means any action towards peace can be delayed ... let's face it ... israel wants nothing to do with peace as it relates to a two-state solution ... it currently controls everything and continues to expand - there is no motivation to cede from this current course ... the actual casualty rate suffered on the israeli side is nominal compared to the palestinian side and is likely considered worthwhile if it means not having to succumb to a two-state solution ...

so, the reality is that no matter the lip service paid to the hamas rhetoric ... israel currently needs hamas ... similar to how the US needed saddam ... without saddam - the US could not invade iraq ... without hamas - israel would be forced to negotiate and withdraw ... something israel has no interest in doing ...

that's not entirely true....a lil over 4 years ago israel said:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

polaris_x

Pepe Silvia wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

my theory on gaza

israel's motive for the blockade on gaza has always been said to be a military blockade on it's enemy, hamas ... yet, every independent observer has indicated that it fails in every aspect because the blockade has done nothing but allow hamas to grow both in popularity but in it's coffers ...

so, my approach in general is always to look for the obvious ... sometimes the obvious doesn't appear to be so because of preconceived notions ... in this case - i believe the blockade on gaza has done exactly what it was meant to do ... punish the civilian but at the same time strengthen hamas ... the reason being that a strong hamas presence means any action towards peace can be delayed ... let's face it ... israel wants nothing to do with peace as it relates to a two-state solution ... it currently controls everything and continues to expand - there is no motivation to cede from this current course ... the actual casualty rate suffered on the israeli side is nominal compared to the palestinian side and is likely considered worthwhile if it means not having to succumb to a two-state solution ...

so, the reality is that no matter the lip service paid to the hamas rhetoric ... israel currently needs hamas ... similar to how the US needed saddam ... without saddam - the US could not invade iraq ... without hamas - israel would be forced to negotiate and withdraw ... something israel has no interest in doing ...

that's not entirely true....a lil over 4 years ago israel said:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

i think this is lip service ...

Pepe Silvia

it could be but it is also admitting collective punishment

polaris_x

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it could be but it is also admitting collective punishment

yeah ... but i also say that part of their motivation was to punish the civilians as well ...

Pepe Silvia

polaris_x wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it could be but it is also admitting collective punishment

yeah ... but i also say that part of their motivation was to punish the civilians as well ...

i think it's their leaders turning psychopathic. they have been able to get away with so much shit for DECADES so they feel they can do whatever they want short of just wiping them all out. as long as they can play the victim card and call anyone who criticizes them anti-jew or anti-israeli or anti-semitic to shut them up.

they are able to just take land and displace millions and nothing is done

they are able to run over an american girl with a bulldozer as they knock down homes and nothing is done

they are able to shoot a british jounralist in the head as he and his group were marked as journalists, were holding a white flag and shouting "hello, we are british jounalists" bam and nothing is done

they are able to use commit war crimes and crimes against humanity by using white phosphorous rounds targeted at a UN safehouse with over 700 Palestinians and a UN storehouse with aid (which burned down) and repeatedly lie about it and nothing is done

settlers and the idf abuse Palestinians in the occupied territories and nothing is done

settlers and the idf destroy olive and other tree groves and farm land and nothing is done

it's not everybody but when there is no punishment for that kind of behavior it just keeps happening and keeps getting worse until the international community finally puts its foot down

like pretty much every government to some extent fanatics have hijacked it and they aren't interested in a 2 state solution, in the fanatics eyes their god gave that land to them, end of discussion. all these peace talks and whatnot is just lipservice because they always just take more land from another part of the region.

Pepe Silvia

i just looked up the 2 international members Israel appointed to their investigation....gee, i wonder if they're biased? :roll:

Who's who on Israel's committee on the Gaza flotilla raid?

Observer, David Trimble, 65 (Northern Ireland) - The first minister of Northern Ireland. A Nobel Peace Prize laureate, he was instrumental in securing the Ulster power-sharing agreement between Protestants whom he represented and Catholics known as the Good Friday Agreement that was brokered by U.S. mediator George Mitchell, currently a mediator between Israel and the Palestinians.

Observer, Ken Watkin (Canada) - The former head of the Canadian military's judiciary holding the rank of brigadier-general, Watkin was legal adviser to a Canadian military/civilian board of inquiry investigating the activities of the Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group in Somalia. From 1995-2005 he was counsel in respect of various investigations and inquiries arising from the 1994 genocide in Rwanda. He has also served as legal adviser to the Canadian navy and to Canadian commanders in Bosnia.

sounds pretty good, right? I mean he won a peace prize for helping establish peace with the IRA (though now the US government says that would be an act of terrorism) but in reality....

according to Haaretz:

Trimble joined the "Friends of Israel" initiative launched in Paris some two weeks ago, in which Israel's former ambassador to the United Nations, Dore Gold, was also involved. Gold is considered a close associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

who are the friends of israel you may ask? being a friend doesn't sound too bad...except a member of the Jersulem Post described it as:

The leaders — who include the Nobel Peace Prize laureate David Trimble, Peru’s former president Alejandro Toledo, Italian philosopher Marcello Pera, former United States ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton and British historian Andrew Roberts — say they seek to counter the attempts to delegitimize the State of Israel and its right to live in peace within safe and defensible borders.

The initiative is being launched now, its sponsors said in a statement, because of their outrage and concern about the “unprecedented delegitimation campaign against Israel, driven by the enemies of the Jewish state and perversely assumed by numerous international authorities.”

They added that it differs from previous such efforts in that this initiative “is promoted by people who are not Jewish and whose motivations are based on the deep conviction that Israel is part of the Western world. In fact, today Israel is a fundamental actor for the future of the West. Although the peace process is important, the members of Friends of Israel Initiative are more concerned about the onslaught of radical Islamism as well as the specter of a nuclear Iran since these are threats affecting not only Israel, but the entire world.”

oh, so he's actually a 'leader' in the group, as well? in a group that is so extremely paranoid and thinks the world is out to get israel?

bah, still, he won a nobel peace prize for peace with the IRA so he should see similarities with Hamas and the IRA, right?

or maybe not...

'Stand firm on Hamas,' N. Ireland peacemaker advises Israel

Lord David Trimble calls on international community to "stand firm" regarding Hamas ahead of the Annapolis conference next month.

Comparing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to Northern Ireland is "misleading and demonstrably false," Lord David Trimble, a 1998 Nobel Peace Laureate for his efforts to find a peaceful solution to the conflict in Northern Ireland, said last week. He spoke at the launch in Parliament of his report entitled "Misunderstanding Ulster," published by Conservative Friends of Israel. The lessons of the Northern Ireland peace process had been misunderstood, Trimble said, adding that Israel "is not Ulster." "The more I hear the lessons of Northern Ireland applied to the Middle East, the less I am sure that those lessons have been properly learned," he said.

oh....but surely the general is good to go, right? oh, wait, he was involved in torture scandals and refused to cooperate or testify?

OTTAWA — A House of Commons committee investigating what the federal government may have known about possible prisoner torture in Afghan jails ran into a brick wall Wednesday, with the military's top lawyer refusing to answer questions.

Brig.-Gen. Ken Watkins, the military judge advocate general, claimed solicitor-client privilege about whether he'd seen warnings from a diplomat in Kandahar and whether he'd received direction from the prime minister's office.

"Obviously the coverup continues," said Liberal defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh.

"It is not part of solicitor-client privilege to hide who instructs you or who your client is. If the (Prime Minister's Office or Privy Council Office) instructed these individuals, we ought to know."

Watkins' office was copied on reports written by diplomat Richard Colvin in 2006, which laid out stark warnings about possible torture in Kandahar jails. Senior members of the Conservative cabinet say they never saw the reports.

The judge advocate general has the power to order military police to conduct an investigation if wrongdoing is suspected.

Watkins refused to say whether he -- or anyone else in his office -- saw Colvin's reports.

Colvin was the political officer at the Canadian-run provincial reconstruction base in mid-2006 when Canadian troops began handing over prisoners to Afghan authorities.

New Democrat defence critic Jack Harris said the military's top lawyer had a duty to act, if such startling information was before him.

"He should tell us and he should be able to tell us if he became aware of allegations," Harris said.

Watkins refused to say whether he'd seen published annual reports from the Foreign Affairs Department that detail Afghanistan's abysmal human-rights record. At one point, Watkins wouldn't even acknowledge whether he had read newspaper accounts of torture allegations.

All of it left opposition MPs fuming and Conservative members hinting that the committee's investigation had already turned into an inquisition.

"We've gotten off to a terrible start," said Bloc Quebecois defence critic Claude Bachand.

"I have the greatest respect for the House of Commons," Watkins told exasperated opposition MPs.

But he said his role before the committee was to answer questions about the legal framework governing the transfer of prisoners, not government policy.

While captured Taliban fighters are not considered prisoners under the Geneva conventions, they are accorded the same treatment, said Watkins.

Transferring prisoners, knowing that they face the possibility of torture, violates international law.

The committee also set out a list of witnesses it intends to call.

Gen. Rick Hillier, who retired as chief of defence staff last year, is among the top witnesses.

The committee said it also intends to call retired lieutenant-general Michel Gauthier, who commanded all overseas operations, and Brig.-Gen. David Fraser, the ground commander throughout much of 2006.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay and two former defence ministers -- Gordon O'Connor and Bill Graham -- are also on the witness list.

It's unclear how many of the hearings will be public.

The government has cast a blanket national-security exemption over a lot of information related to the case -- a move that effectively derailed a separate investigation by the Military Police Complaints Commission.

yosi

1) This (the above) is a blatant attack on character. Wait till the report is written before passing judgment.

2) I take it that this means that you think the Goldstone report is garbage, since Goldstone was a hanging judge in apartheid South Africa.