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pickupyourwill

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catefrances

marriage as we have come to know it is just a social construct.

pickupyourwill

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justam

I think marriage is a huge topic.

It can be made simple, by viewing it in an idealized form, but mostly it is a very long-term relationship that requires effort from both the husband and the wife.

I think that a marriage is as good or bad as the two people involved.

If a couple is lucky, they are both concerned about the children they've made and therefore have incentive to work out their problems as they come up. If they're lucky, they stay in love or find they fall in love with each other again and again.

Childless couples can be less self-less if they feel so inclined, and maybe that's good, and maybe that's bad? It's good if they want to BOLT, it's bad if they want to learn how to rise up to a challenge.

Having children you care about more than yourself often inspires people to go the extra mile (even if one is doing it by sheer force of will!).

To me the topic is large though because there are so many examples of horrible situations out there! (not that there aren't examples of beautiful situations too, but we all hear stories about the worst ones...)

I feel a happy family group is a gift to everyone though, so, it's worth trying for.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

i think the reason all these old couples have been married for 50 years is because they cheated like crazy and didnt have video evidence everywhere like now. they just accepted it and swept it under the rug.

or maybe i just watch too much Mad Men

pickupyourwill

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pickupyourwill

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BinauralJam

pickupyourwill wrote:

okay so I heard this the other night on Chelsea Lately--and it really struck a chord. I think they were talking about Charlie Sheen--maybe not, sorry Charlie if its not you--missed the first part of the conversation--but it was some male celebrity, nonetheless, whom has cheated in the past. So, apparantly the most recent girl had just left him because he cheated on her or something. Then the other comics were sarcastically saying what a shocker it was--that she should have seen it coming.

Then Chelsea made a great statement about how every girl thinks they're different, that they're the one he won't cheat on, that they have a better understanding of him and can make him so happy he'll never even look at another...because girls are stupid. and its true, we are...when it comes to guys. even if its a guy who doesn't cheat--any guy will eventually become bored of his mate--no matter how pretty, sexy, skinny, skilled, submissive, deep, smart, etc, she is, because there is no perfect person out there!! everybody has their own issues--we're all human.

So I think it can be applied to guys also. Every guy thinks he's different, too--this time it will be different--they're the exact opposite of that person, yada, yada, yada. bottom line is, you just have to make it work with the person you're already with. communicate,respect ,laugh, etc. make great, lasting memories.

everything we've done has been done in history before. even relationships. we're no different from the rest.

I put this in the moving train area because I think too many people give up on marriages that could work.

Nice!!
no matter how pretty, sexy, skinny, skilled, submissive, deep, smart = thing's that don't hurt. there's times when i read stories and i think what a schmuck , but the truth is ALL those things you read about could be you!!! it seems to me to about effort, caring and a lot of LUCK!!, So good LUCK LADIES & GENTALMAN, it's a roll of the dice, i don't care how smart, sexy or funny you think you are.

Soulfire42

catefrances wrote:

marriage as we have come to know it is just a social construct.

So is your ability to read, write, speak and otherwise communicate... but that doesn't mean it can't have value or purpose, right?

catefrances

Soulfire42 wrote:

catefrances wrote:

marriage as we have come to know it is just a social construct.

So is your ability to read, write, speak and otherwise communicate... but that doesn't mean it can't have value or purpose, right?

actually no my ability to speak, write and read was something i was born with. how it was channelled and developed may be seen as a social construct but i can tell you left to myself and within the family i grew up with, that ability would have flourished as it has regardless of any greater social contact.

catefrances

pickupyourwill wrote:

I agree, catefrances. It is an institution for people that want to be institutionalized. but for most people it does start out with true love, that can still be experienced in small sparks throughout the years.

I'm happy for the people out there that are single, divorced, etc. and love their freedom. My situation, however, does not call for that. Though I've thought about it many times, it is much more complicated when children are involved. I would love to have a single person's freedom--but I have a child, and my life is no longer only about me. I gave complete freedom up when I gave birth. I would die for my son in a heartbeat. I brought him into this world, its my responsibility to help him all the way through it. He deserves the things I could have achieved but didn't--and dammit I'm gonna help him get there. He is my only purpose in this life. He will not struggle the way my husband and I have. He will never know that kind of pain, but he will be aware of it. And he won't repeat our cursed cycle of despair--I'll be damn sure of that.

well i have children and have never been married. i never really felt the need to and would never have been talked into it. admittedly when i was younger marriage looked like something i could do but as i got older towards my late 20s, i came to the realisation that the institution of marriage wasnt something i needed.
my children have always come first but i would never sacrifice my freedom and i dont see why it would be necessary. whilst i support my children fully i have the freedom to pursue whatever it is i wish to... and never do i so to the detriment of my children. so when you say you gave up complete freedom when you gave birth i dont understand. but i do respect the choice youve made.

Cosmo

I heard a comedian (Donald Glover) do a bit regarding Tiger Woods.
The basic premise was, Mrs. Woods should have known what she was getting into. He is Tiger Woods.
Tiger Woods is (arguably) the greatest golfer of all time. He makes millions of dollars playing golf... he make millions more in endorsements... he's good looking... he's (book) smart... he's known by women (who knows he's rich and famous) around the world... and he has a job that takes him on the road a lot.. and away from you, Mrs. Woods.
...
Mrs. Woods HAS to believe that her vagina... is the Tiger Woods of vaginas.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

I heard a comedian (Donald Glover) do a bit regarding Tiger Woods.
The basic premise was, Mrs. Woods should have known what she was getting into. He is Tiger Woods.
Tiger Woods is (arguably) the greatest golfer of all time. He makes millions of dollars playing golf... he make millions more in endorsements... he's good looking... he's (book) smart... he's known by women (who knows he's rich and famous) around the world... and he has a job that takes him on the road a lot.. and away from you, Mrs. Woods.
...
Mrs. Woods HAS to believe that her vagina... is the Tiger Woods of vaginas.

tiger woods is at fault here. not his wife. if he didnt think he could remain faithful then why did he get married. and dont give me that bullshit about maybe he did think he could have been faithful... cause if you dry that out you could fertilise a hectare.

Claireack

I wasn't quite sure what the OP meant. Is that all relationships are doomed?

Soulfire42

catefrances wrote:

Soulfire42 wrote:

catefrances wrote:

marriage as we have come to know it is just a social construct.

So is your ability to read, write, speak and otherwise communicate... but that doesn't mean it can't have value or purpose, right?

actually no my ability to speak, write and read was something i was born with. how it was channelled and developed may be seen as a social construct but i can tell you left to myself and within the family i grew up with, that ability would have flourished as it has regardless of any greater social contact.

Your ability to love was something you were born with. How it was channeled (whether marriage or something else) is just as much a social construct as your ability to read, write, speak, etc in the manners you do. They would not have flourished, as you say, were you left purely on your own. See some examples of isolated humans and you'll have to agree. You are writing in English and such because you've bought into a social construct, which is a quite useful one. Marriage is a social construct, fine. However, it can also be a quite useful one in the societies we live in. Surely you can see that? Yes, it may have problems, but it obviously has some usefulness too. I'd caution you against being so dismissive of things or labeling them dismissively when you appear to happen to not agree with them. We all live in a socially constructed world and we need to get over that as something we can simply dismiss or ignore. Just because something is a social construct does not mean it has no value.

Godfather.

one of the greatest gifts ever given to me is my wife and then my son came and things just got better.

Godfather.

blackredyellow

justam wrote:

I think that a marriage is as good or bad as the two people involved.

That pretty much sums it up...

To me, these sort of debates are pointless... It seems either you believe in marriage, or you don't. People who have never been married seem to have a preconceived notion of whether it's good or bad... And typically people who are in great marriages think it's good, and people in (or had) bad marriages think it's a bad thing.

Soulfire42

blackredyellow wrote:

justam wrote:

I think that a marriage is as good or bad as the two people involved.

That pretty much sums it up...

To me, these sort of debates are pointless... It seems either you believe in marriage, or you don't. People who have never been married seem to have a preconceived notion of whether it's good or bad... And typically people who are in great marriages think it's good, and people in (or had) bad marriages think it's a bad thing.

Yep, that assessment pretty much works for me too. Haha

gabers

Claireack wrote:

I wasn't quite sure what the OP meant. Is that all relationships are doomed?

I think she meant to say that eventually, all men cheat. If that means the relationship is doomed depends on the tolerance of the female. Of course this could go either way.

catefrances

blackredyellow wrote:

justam wrote:

I think that a marriage is as good or bad as the two people involved.

That pretty much sums it up...

To me, these sort of debates are pointless... It seems either you believe in marriage, or you don't. People who have never been married seem to have a preconceived notion of whether it's good or bad... And typically people who are in great marriages think it's good, and people in (or had) bad marriages think it's a bad thing.

i have no preconceived idea on whether marriage is good or bad......... all i know is its not for me.


but my question is... why are people in bad marriages???

catefrances

Soulfire42 wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Soulfire42 wrote:

So is your ability to read, write, speak and otherwise communicate... but that doesn't mean it can't have value or purpose, right?

actually no my ability to speak, write and read was something i was born with. how it was channelled and developed may be seen as a social construct but i can tell you left to myself and within the family i grew up with, that ability would have flourished as it has regardless of any greater social contact.

Your ability to love was something you were born with. How it was channeled (whether marriage or something else) is just as much a social construct as your ability to read, write, speak, etc in the manners you do. They would not have flourished, as you say, were you left purely on your own. See some examples of isolated humans and you'll have to agree. You are writing in English and such because you've bought into a social construct, which is a quite useful one. Marriage is a social construct, fine. However, it can also be a quite useful one in the societies we live in. Surely you can see that? Yes, it may have problems, but it obviously has some usefulness too. I'd caution you against being so dismissive of things or labeling them dismissively when you appear to happen to not agree with them. We all live in a socially constructed world and we need to get over that as something we can simply dismiss or ignore. Just because something is a social construct does not mean it has no value.

sorry gonna have to disagree with my ability to read, write and speak being a social construct. the means of developing them may be social constructs but ability can not be.

i am not 'dismissive' of marriage.. ive never said it was crap... nor did i say it had no value. alls i said was it was a social construct... one ive come to not subscribe to. for me its a contract, a legal contract isnt going to make me feel any different about the person im with. and thats what i see it as... a legal contract founded on someones morality. its ok for two people to live together if theyre married but the same 'privileges' arent afforded two people who merely chooose to live together as a 'married' couple but are just as committed to each other and to making their relationship work without the need for that piece of paper. my children are seen as illegitimate without the presence of their father by my side as 'the husband' .and thats the social construct im speaking of.

justam

pickupyourwill, I felt that the whole topic of marriage was such a huge thing that I didn't address your first idea, but I want to do that now.

I think that you are probably right. Many women make the mistake of thinking that this cheating guy that they love will change because they are "so special" and it ain't the case. Men who are like that, are just like that. It's something in THEM.

It doesn't matter who they are in love with, it doesn't matter how beautiful their wives are, it doesn't matter how much they are in love (!!!), they just work out their stress or insecurities that way. (Yes, I said insecurities. :geek: )

BUT, that's not to say that love doesn't exist. It does. I don't think that cheating necessarily means lack of love. (And I know that's a contradiction to some people.)

However, I think some women are kind of stupid and that makes them vulnerable to their own delusions. They have these inflated fantasies of being different and THEN they are surprised that the guy that cheated on his last wife is cheatin' on them.

Good God, why be surprised?!! Shouldn't they go INTO the relationship with their eyes open?

blackredyellow

catefrances wrote:

but my question is... why are people in bad marriages???

not sure what you are asking.... why do they stay in bad marriages or why are some marriages bad?

catefrances

blackredyellow wrote:

catefrances wrote:

but my question is... why are people in bad marriages???

not sure what you are asking.... why do they stay in bad marriages or why are some marriages bad?

please i know why some marriages are bad.. :roll: im asking why people stay in bad marriages, or relationships they consider ' marriages' ?

blackredyellow

catefrances wrote:

blackredyellow wrote:

catefrances wrote:

but my question is... why are people in bad marriages???

not sure what you are asking.... why do they stay in bad marriages or why are some marriages bad?

please i know why some marriages are bad.. :roll: im asking why people stay in bad marriages, or relationships they consider ' marriages' ?

I'm sure since you're so smart, you can figure it out... :roll:

but... My marriage is good so I'm guessing, but it's probably because the process of getting out of the relationship seems too hard... all things are relative... if it's a terrible marriage, then nothing is stopping people, but if it's just kinda bad (or good & bad or maybe people think the grass is greener), then when you have kids, a house, bank accounts, debts, possessions, etc., I think getting through that mess probably seems worse than just riding out a less than ideal relationship.

Actually, I don't think this is just a problem with people in marriages at all, just long term relationships in general. Doing a little paperwork to end a marriage is far less of a headache then losing your house, figuring out custody, who gets what, etc etc etc..

GTFLYGIRL

catefrances wrote:

why people stay in bad marriages, or relationships they consider ' marriages' ?

many people give in to security under pressure. many people are afraid of being alone.

i couldn't dream of having to answer to someone in the manner that many of my married friends have to. i guess people just get used to it... creatures of habit... or they want it... security... gives them a sense of purpose... or something... IDK...

since my first big break-up (with a boyfriend) at age 18... i decided love was difficult enough without having to bring the law into it. don't really understand many people's "need" to get married... or what their real motivators are.... but for many... chances are... neither do they... :?

SPEEDY MCCREADY

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

catefrances wrote:

why people stay in bad marriages, or relationships they consider ' marriages' ?

many people give in to security under pressure. many people are afraid of being alone.

i couldn't dream of having to answer to someone in the manner that many of my married friends have to. i guess people just get used to it... creatures of habit... or they want it... security... gives them a sense of purpose... or something... IDK...

since my first big break-up (with a boyfriend) at age 18... i decided love was difficult enough without having to bring the law into it. don't really understand many people's "need" to get married... or what their real motivators are.... but for many... chances are... neither do they... :?

marriage is for suckers.....

BinauralJam

I'm a Sucker!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: What are ya gona do, i need the security, i know one thing, i sure wasn't happy single.

pandora

the difference between a good and bad relationship is whether both parties have their needs met. It is what brings us together and keeps us together. If your relationships are based on the golden rule, to always treat others the way you would like to be treated, they will be lasting and fulfilling. Not everyone cheats because they respect their partner and do not want to hurt them and they would not want their partner to cheat on them. It is mutual, an understanding of the love and trust shared. There isn't a need to cheat because both parties have their needs met. As far as changing people, we all change over time hopefully for the better. But you can't go into a relationship with a list of things to change about your partner. You are together to share a life and learn together. And yes long term relationships are work, there are up and downs, disappointments, challenges, but the longer you are together the better it gets, because the loving bond grows stronger. I agree, many leave relationships that could have overcome an obstacle and become stronger from it, this is unfortunate, to give up on love.

catefrances

blackredyellow wrote:

catefrances wrote:

please i know why some marriages are bad.. :roll: im asking why people stay in bad marriages, or relationships they consider ' marriages' ?

I'm sure since you're so smart, you can figure it out... :roll:

but... My marriage is good so I'm guessing, but it's probably because the process of getting out of the relationship seems too hard... all things are relative... if it's a terrible marriage, then nothing is stopping people, but if it's just kinda bad (or good & bad or maybe people think the grass is greener), then when you have kids, a house, bank accounts, debts, possessions, etc., I think getting through that mess probably seems worse than just riding out a less than ideal relationship.

Actually, I don't think this is just a problem with people in marriages at all, just long term relationships in general. Doing a little paperwork to end a marriage is far less of a headache then losing your house, figuring out custody, who gets what, etc etc etc..

nope cant figure it out. :P

i guess i shoulda said i know why, i just dont understand. to be that unhappy and to be 'stuck' would be the death of me.