so who then?

Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
edited June 2010 in A Moving Train
with all this bush and obama bashing who do you guy's think did a good job as president...in our time and why, I liked Clinton (Slick Willy) I remember the economy being better with him in for 2 terms.

Godfather.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I actually liked Slick Willy as well ... He didn't do anything earth-shattering, but he kept our neighbor to the south afloat and didn't make any terrible errors on an international scale.
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    I liked Clinton for a time, until NAFTA and the gun ban. Never liked either Bush or Obama, that won't change. I'm really ready for a Libertarian/Constitutionalist.
  • BG44858BG44858 Posts: 25
    jimmy carter of course
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    Dave
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    unsung wrote:
    I liked Clinton for a time, until NAFTA and the gun ban. Never liked either Bush or Obama, that won't change. I'm really ready for a Libertarian/Constitutionalist.
    ...
    Just to set the record straight and get the facts into the statement, NAFTA was the brainchild of President Ronald Reagan and the agreement was ratified during the G.H.W. Bush term.

    November 13, 1979
    While officially declaring his candidacy for President, Ronald Reagan proposes a “North American Agreement” which will produce “a North American continent in which the goods and people of the three countries will cross boundaries more freely.”

    January 1981
    President Ronald Reagan proposes a North American common market.

    December 17, 1992
    Official signing of NAFTA by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, US president George Bush, and Mexican president Carlos Salinas de Gortari, subject to its final approval by the federal Parliaments of the three countries.

    source: http://www.fina-nafi.org/eng/integ/chro ... menu=integ
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    yeah Clinton was great, we didn't have 2 big wars, he was smarter and killed people through sanctions rather than military action...
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    _outlaw wrote:
    yeah Clinton was great, we didn't have 2 big wars, he was smarter and killed people through sanctions rather than military action...

    Wow - talk about selective memory. Maybe you forget how he bombed eastern Europe ... mainly to take the pressure off himself and the Monica situation.

    I also believe his actions or lack thereof contribited a lot to 9/11.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    know1 wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    yeah Clinton was great, we didn't have 2 big wars, he was smarter and killed people through sanctions rather than military action...

    Wow - talk about selective memory. Maybe you forget how he bombed eastern Europe ... mainly to take the pressure off himself and the Monica situation.

    I also believe his actions or lack thereof contribited a lot to 9/11.
    I was being sarcastic, but yeah I know about the Balkan war efforts.

    As for 9/11, every US president for the past couple decades up until George W Bush himself contributed to it.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    know1 wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    yeah Clinton was great, we didn't have 2 big wars, he was smarter and killed people through sanctions rather than military action...

    Wow - talk about selective memory. Maybe you forget how he bombed eastern Europe ... mainly to take the pressure off himself and the Monica situation.

    I also believe his actions or lack thereof contribited a lot to 9/11.

    The airstrikes in the former Yugoslavia were part of a NATO operation, not a unilateral, unpopular war like Iraq was the second time around. There was also more than a little genocide going on there. The Balkans was not some sideshow diversion. A few of my in-laws actually had to escape from Bosnia to avoid winding up in a mass grave.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    know1 wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    yeah Clinton was great, we didn't have 2 big wars, he was smarter and killed people through sanctions rather than military action...

    Wow - talk about selective memory. Maybe you forget how he bombed eastern Europe ... mainly to take the pressure off himself and the Monica situation.

    I also believe his actions or lack thereof contribited a lot to 9/11.
    ...
    Selective memory? Did you select to forget about the bombardment of Milosovic's artillery upon civilian populations in the former Yugoslavia? The U.S. Naval F-18s and A-6s were the most capable resource to take out those artillery positions.
    But, yeah... I see your point. Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • South of SeattleSouth of Seattle West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    Cosmo wrote:
    Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.
    NERDS!
  • Stypo420Stypo420 Posts: 519
    I think Bill Clinton was the greatest republican president ever!
  • Dave Abruzzeze or however you spell it.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Cosmo wrote:
    Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.
    ...
    Yes. But, we can use the rationalization, "Hey... at least we're not bombing anyone" and feel better about ourselves.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • South of SeattleSouth of Seattle West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    Cosmo wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.
    ...
    Yes. But, we can use the rationalization, "Hey... at least we're not bombing anyone" and feel better about ourselves.
    The only bombs we should be dropping on them are ones made of Aid and Food.
    NERDS!
  • Cosmo wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.
    ...
    Yes. But, we can use the rationalization, "Hey... at least we're not bombing anyone" and feel better about ourselves.
    or maybe we should use sanctions, since those work so well for North Korea and Cuba.
  • Cosmo wrote:

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.
    ...
    Yes. But, we can use the rationalization, "Hey... at least we're not bombing anyone" and feel better about ourselves.
    The only bombs we should be dropping on them are ones made of Aid and Food.
    i dont think you can fight off gangs of machete wielding psychos with a loaf of bread.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Cosmo wrote:
    Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.

    Like we've been doing with Palestine for how many years now??????
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    MrSmith wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    or maybe we should use sanctions, since those work so well for North Korea and Cuba.

    No No No, just keep bombing the shit out of them. They're arabs and Muslims. The world doesn't need them... :roll:

    I wonder what your position would be if YOU were born Muslim or arab and had 9-11 almost everyday in your country.....But it's ok man, keep bombing them cuz they're dirty Arabs/muslims....what's the definition of terrorism again?????
  • badbrains wrote:
    MrSmith wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    or maybe we should use sanctions, since those work so well for North Korea and Cuba.

    No No No, just keep bombing the shit out of them. They're arabs and Muslims. The world doesn't need them... :roll:

    I wonder what your position would be if YOU were born Muslim or arab and had 9-11 almost everyday in your country.....But it's ok man, keep bombing them cuz they're dirty Arabs/muslims....what's the definition of terrorism again?????
    you calling me a racist?
  • FlaggFlagg Posts: 5,856
    Cosmo wrote:
    Our bombing of their military positions was much worse than the ethnic cleansing going on at that time. We should have just sat it out and pretended that we didn't see it, huh?

    Like we're doing with Darfur right now.

    Yep
    DAL-7/5/98,10/17/00,6/9/03,11/15/13
    BOS-9/28/04,9/29/04,6/28/08,6/30/08, 9/5/16, 9/7/16, 9/2/18
    MTL-9/15/05, OTT-9/16/05
    PHL-5/27/06,5/28/06,10/30/09,10/31/09
    CHI-8/2/07,8/5/07,8/23/09,8/24/09
    HTFD-6/27/08
    ATX-10/4/09, 10/12/14
    KC-5/3/2010,STL-5/4/2010
    Bridge School-10/23/2010,10/24/2010
    PJ20-9/3/2011,9/4/2011
    OKC-11/16/13
    SEA-12/6/13
    TUL-10/8/14
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I actually liked Slick Willy as well ... He didn't do anything earth-shattering, but he kept our neighbor to the south afloat and didn't make any terrible errors on an international scale.

    Apart from bombing Iraq in his first week in office and overseeing 8 years of daily bombing raids and sanctions which killed an estimated 500,000 children.

    Oh, and he was at the helm when Bosnia and Rwanda were being ravaged and millions slaughtered and chose to sit back and allow the slaughter to continue. In fact, he didn't just allow the slaughter in Bosnia to continue for 3 years, but he encouraged it by preventing the Bosnian Muslims from arming and defending themselves.

    What a hero!
  • So BYRNZIE,

    Who IS your favorite American President?

    My guess is your favorite leader is not American at all....

    Does he pray East 5 times a day?
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I actually liked Slick Willy as well ... He didn't do anything earth-shattering, but he kept our neighbor to the south afloat and didn't make any terrible errors on an international scale.

    Apart from bombing Iraq in his first week in office and overseeing 8 years of daily bombing raids and sanctions which killed an estimated 500,000 children.

    Oh, and he was at the helm when Bosnia and Rwanda were being ravaged and millions slaughtered and chose to sit back and allow the slaughter to continue. In fact, he didn't just allow the slaughter in Bosnia to continue for 3 years, but he encouraged it by preventing the Bosnian Muslims from arming and defending themselves.

    What a hero!

    I never said he was a hero. Its all relative. And as you are so fond of evoking the concept of international law, let's also note that the sanctions on Iraq were UN-imposed, not the unilateral product of American decision-making, and that the entire world stood by while genocide occured in Rwanda, even though there were UN officials on the ground there. This isn't all on Willy. People are always going on about how terrible colonialism was and African self-determination, but they want to have their cake and eat it too by arguing that its up to the US and other Western powers to prevent those people from slaughtering each other. Why didn't the African decision-makers and UN peacekeepers do something about Rwanda?
  • i was wondering. is it possible to be in such a powerful position and not make a decision that kills people? i bet its incredibly difficult to make any decision, even minor ones, that doesnt cause at least a few deaths. Even Ghandi killed people with his decisions who would have lived had he made a different one.

    maybe the only true sign of a good president is one who kills the fewest amount of people.

    but fuck, there are nearly 9 billion of us. its kinda hard not to kill someone.
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Godfather. wrote:
    with all this bush and obama bashing who do you guy's think did a good job as president...in our time and why, I liked Clinton (Slick Willy) I remember the economy being better with him in for 2 terms.

    Godfather.


    all of them do both good and bad things. i would say in recent years it was Clinton for me. Seemed to me he learned that in order to be a president you need to remember you don't just govern those that voted for you. Having the republican controlled congress helped him get that pretty quickly. He had a tough go and was a bit of a sleeze, but I thought he did a good job of managing the country.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    with all this bush and obama bashing who do you guy's think did a good job as president...in our time and why, I liked Clinton (Slick Willy) I remember the economy being better with him in for 2 terms.

    Godfather.


    all of them do both good and bad things. i would say in recent years it was Clinton for me. Seemed to me he learned that in order to be a president you need to remember you don't just govern those that voted for you. Having the republican controlled congress helped him get that pretty quickly. He had a tough go and was a bit of a sleeze, but I thought he did a good job of managing the country.


    except his actions helped cause the economic crisis we are in now and allowed banks and hedge funds and all those people to merge

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%8 ... Bliley_Act


    oh and i forget what he called it but he allowed the timber industry to go onto federally protected land and wildlife preserves and cut down whatever tree the timber industry felt would be a fire hazard and naturally a lot of sequoias and old growth forest were targeted
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    with all this bush and obama bashing who do you guy's think did a good job as president...in our time and why, I liked Clinton (Slick Willy) I remember the economy being better with him in for 2 terms.

    Godfather.


    all of them do both good and bad things. i would say in recent years it was Clinton for me. Seemed to me he learned that in order to be a president you need to remember you don't just govern those that voted for you. Having the republican controlled congress helped him get that pretty quickly. He had a tough go and was a bit of a sleeze, but I thought he did a good job of managing the country.


    except his actions helped cause the economic crisis we are in now and allowed banks and hedge funds and all those people to merge

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%8 ... Bliley_Act


    oh and i forget what he called it but he allowed the timber industry to go onto federally protected land and wildlife preserves and cut down whatever tree the timber industry felt would be a fire hazard and naturally a lot of sequoias and old growth forest were targeted

    Like I said, they all do good and bad, the current crisis was not caused by one person or one thing. I am not going to come on here and say he was perfect, but he did more for budget balancing and debt reduction than most presidents. To me he was pretty centrist and that is an important aspect of what is needed to be a good leader. No president has not done things they regret or that turned out to have unforseen consequences that weren't good.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I never said he was a hero. Its all relative. And as you are so fond of evoking the concept of international law, let's also note that the sanctions on Iraq were UN-imposed, not the unilateral product of American decision-making, and that the entire world stood by while genocide occured in Rwanda, even though there were UN officials on the ground there. This isn't all on Willy. People are always going on about how terrible colonialism was and African self-determination, but they want to have their cake and eat it too by arguing that its up to the US and other Western powers to prevent those people from slaughtering each other. Why didn't the African decision-makers and UN peacekeepers do something about Rwanda?

    It's not relative at all.

    As for the sanctions on Iraq being U.N imposed, do you also think that both Iraq wars were waged by the U.N, or were they sought and waged primarily by the U.S?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions
    'A non-express goal of the sanctions held by some was the removal of Saddam Hussein. It was openly stated in the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, expressing a sense of the U.S. Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton,[12] that U.S. policy was to "replace that regime" in Iraq,[13] to force Hussein from power, an outcome not referenced in the resolutions. And in 1991, Paul Lewis wrote in the New York Times: "Ever since the trade embargo was imposed on Aug. 6, after the invasion of Kuwait, the United States has argued against any premature relaxation in the belief that by making life uncomfortable for the Iraqi people it will eventually encourage them to remove President Saddam Hussein from power."[14] The economic sanctions failed to topple Saddam, and may have helped further entrench his rule.'

    Why didn't the African decision-makers and UN peacekeepers do something about Rwanda?

    The African decision makers appealed to the U.N to intervene but the U.N - hindered by the U.S, France, and Britain - hand their hands tied.
    The U.N peacekeepers wanted to do something about it but were ordered not to.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_th ... ted_States
    'In the US, President Bill Clinton and US Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright repeatedly refused to take action.[11] US government documents declassfied in 2004 indicate the Clinton administration knew Rwanda was being engulfed by genocide in April 1994, but buried the information to justify its inaction. Senior US officials privately used the word genocide within 16 days of the start of the killings, but chose not to do so publicly because Clinton had already decided not to intervene. Intelligence reports obtained using the US Freedom of Information Act show the cabinet and almost certainly the president had been told of a planned "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis" before the slaughter reached its peak.'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Ge ... rican_role
    A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response to the genocide:

    1. The U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
    2. Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
    3. Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
    4. The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
    5. U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.
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