Question for Real band singers...

acoustic guy

I have been singing and playing for a long while but just with friends and at parties never on stage. Now, I have been playing and singing on a pic.
Question is, why do i sound so different a how can I fix it? What I mean is i sound much better in many ways with out a mic, I want to sound the same...

xtremehardy388

It might just be perception. Get comfortable with the voice and KEEP singing...practice makes perfect

mccreadyisgod

It's probably some combination of two things, but there's a third element I'll get to as well.

1) Your voice sounds different to others than it sounds to yourself. It's the old gag where you listen to a recording of yourself, and you look around and say, "Do I really sound like that?" Because of the way travels through the bone structure of your head, especially your jawbone and skull, your voice always sounds different to your own ears than it sounds traveling just through the air.

2) You need to learn proper mic technique. You can't just sing while being in the same room as a microphone; you need to play the mic as it's own instrument, with it's own dynamic properties. That's why good singers will move relative to the mic (if it's hand-held, then move the mic; if it's on a stand, move your head or torso) when they sing louder or softer. If you sing a quieter part, or if the vocal range is in lower registers, it's usually a good idea to be VERY close to the mic (like, lips touch the grill). If you sing louder, or parts that are in higher registers, then move away from the mic a few inches. Really good singers (think Celine Dion, regardless of how you do or don't like her music) will do this flawlessly.

3) The wildcard here is the quality and arrangement of the PA. In a proper setup, you would have a monitor pointed at you as you sing, so you can hear yourself sing over the band or accompaniment. In some instances, a monitor isn't available, which will really screw with a novice singer (and is usually the case at karaoke shows; it's one of the reasons karaoke singers often have a hard time staying in key). In other instances, the monitor is too quiet, too small, or has terrible sound quality. If the main PA overpowers the monitor, then you get the delayed sound of the PA bouncing off the walls of the room, which throws the singer off. That's why Ed has several very loud monitors arranged around his mic, and a very competent sound engineer running the monitor system.

Some singers get to a point where they prefer to hear themselves over the PA rather than a monitor. Others prefer to hear only themselves in the monitor. The current trend is to use In-Ear-Monitors, or IEM's, which are like really expensive earbud headphones with a monitor feed. Ed uses several different monitors, some with only his voice and others with the rest of the band (a necessity when you play large, spread-out stages). But I warn you, singers who blame a bad PA and bad monitor tend to be perceived as divas (even if the sound system or engineer WAS terrible). Learn to sing well, taking advantage of a good PA, or in spite of a bad PA, and you'll be a good singer no matter what.

One trick that some singers use to fix all three issues above: put a heavy-duty (30 dB or higher) ear plug in one ear, so that the sound you hear in that ear is the direct sound from your bone structure. It's kinda like when you see singers (usually in a posed shot in the studio) plugging or covering one ear; it actually does help.

2-feign-reluctance

sound advice. no pun intended.

acoustic guy

mccreadyisgod wrote:

It's probably some combination of two things, but there's a third element I'll get to as well.

1) Your voice sounds different to others than it sounds to yourself. It's the old gag where you listen to a recording of yourself, and you look around and say, "Do I really sound like that?" Because of the way travels through the bone structure of your head, especially your jawbone and skull, your voice always sounds different to your own ears than it sounds traveling just through the air.

2) You need to learn proper mic technique. You can't just sing while being in the same room as a microphone; you need to play the mic as it's own instrument, with it's own dynamic properties. That's why good singers will move relative to the mic (if it's hand-held, then move the mic; if it's on a stand, move your head or torso) when they sing louder or softer. If you sing a quieter part, or if the vocal range is in lower registers, it's usually a good idea to be VERY close to the mic (like, lips touch the grill). If you sing louder, or parts that are in higher registers, then move away from the mic a few inches. Really good singers (think Celine Dion, regardless of how you do or don't like her music) will do this flawlessly.

3) The wildcard here is the quality and arrangement of the PA. In a proper setup, you would have a monitor pointed at you as you sing, so you can hear yourself sing over the band or accompaniment. In some instances, a monitor isn't available, which will really screw with a novice singer (and is usually the case at karaoke shows; it's one of the reasons karaoke singers often have a hard time staying in key). In other instances, the monitor is too quiet, too small, or has terrible sound quality. If the main PA overpowers the monitor, then you get the delayed sound of the PA bouncing off the walls of the room, which throws the singer off. That's why Ed has several very loud monitors arranged around his mic, and a very competent sound engineer running the monitor system.

Some singers get to a point where they prefer to hear themselves over the PA rather than a monitor. Others prefer to hear only themselves in the monitor. The current trend is to use In-Ear-Monitors, or IEM's, which are like really expensive earbud headphones with a monitor feed. Ed uses several different monitors, some with only his voice and others with the rest of the band (a necessity when you play large, spread-out stages). But I warn you, singers who blame a bad PA and bad monitor tend to be perceived as divas (even if the sound system or engineer WAS terrible). Learn to sing well, taking advantage of a good PA, or in spite of a bad PA, and you'll be a good singer no matter what.

One trick that some singers use to fix all three issues above: put a heavy-duty (30 dB or higher) ear plug in one ear, so that the sound you hear in that ear is the direct sound from your bone structure. It's kinda like when you see singers (usually in a posed shot in the studio) plugging or covering one ear; it actually does help.

Wow....Great Information. Thanks.
Now whats a Monitor??? lol
Does an expensive mic help over a cheap one? Whats the difference?

Snoopy Died For Our Sins

like the once great Chris Cornell once said...."never smoke pot and listen to your own music..."

mccreadyisgod

acoustic guy wrote:

Wow....Great Information. Thanks.
Now whats a Monitor??? lol
Does an expensive mic help over a cheap one? Whats the difference?

I'll assume the monitor question was a joke, "lol" and all, but shit, don't be afraid to ask questions people. I didn't know what a monitor was before I started playing in a band.

As for the question of quality for vocal mic:

The cheapest mic I'd personally use is a Shure SM58, and honestly, there's nobody who shouldn't be able to sing well through a 58. It's the industry-standard, and has been for decades. For around $100, it's pretty affordable as well. There are a few mics out there that are nicer, but if you're just starting out it's not worth worrying about. If you want a bright-sounding mic that cuts through the mix, you could look at Shure's Beta 57 and Beta 58 mics, which are a little more expensive ($140-160 range). If you are worried about feedback, then you can't beat the Audix OM-7, the same mic that Ed uses ($230). I could talk about the more expensive models from there, but I don't think you're ready for condenser mics just yet (Shure KSM9, Neumann KMS105, Audix VX10).

acoustic guy

mccreadyisgod wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

Wow....Great Information. Thanks.
Now whats a Monitor??? lol
Does an expensive mic help over a cheap one? Whats the difference?

I'll assume the monitor question was a joke, "lol" and all, but shit, don't be afraid to ask questions people. I didn't know what a monitor was before I started playing in a band.

As for the question of quality for vocal mic:

The cheapest mic I'd personally use is a Shure SM58, and honestly, there's nobody who shouldn't be able to sing well through a 58. It's the industry-standard, and has been for decades. For around $100, it's pretty affordable as well. There are a few mics out there that are nicer, but if you're just starting out it's not worth worrying about. If you want a bright-sounding mic that cuts through the mix, you could look at Shure's Beta 57 and Beta 58 mics, which are a little more expensive ($140-160 range). If you are worried about feedback, then you can't beat the Audix OM-7, the same mic that Ed uses ($230). I could talk about the more expensive models from there, but I don't think you're ready for condenser mics just yet (Shure KSM9, Neumann KMS105, Audix VX10).

No really! What is it?

mccreadyisgod

A monitor is a speaker pointed at the musicians on stage, so they can "monitor" their performance. Monitors are usually for the quieter instruments on stage (think vocals, acoustic instruments, keyboards that don't have their own amps, etc) so they can be heard at the same volume as the louder instruments, like the drums and amps.

Like I mentioned already, it's become even more important to have monitors now that PA systems are so big. With a loud PA in a room, you need a monitor to give you "direct" sound so you aren't completely thrown off by the "indirect" sound of the PA bouncing off the walls of the room.

Monitors are also nice for times when you need to hear someone across the stage from you (think about Mike trying to hear what Stone is playing on the other side of the stage). The drummer often needs to have a little of everything in their monitor, as they tend to sit behind all of the amps.

See this picture here:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/462 ... cfbc_b.jpg

Directly in front of Ed's feet are some speakers angled up toward him. Those are his monitors, also known as "wedges" because of their shape. Also in that shot, on the other side of Jeff, are more monitors that are known as "sidefill" monitors. Many bands playing larger stages and with larger PA's use sidefills to compete with the large PA's used.

In-Ear-Monitors, on the other hand, use a wireless broadcaster and wireless receiver to transmit signals to earbuds that are worn in the musicians' ears. You've undoubtedly seen many musicians wearing these in their ears during performances, and some of the guys in PJ use them as well. They're especially nice for controlling overall volume levels and prevent hearing loss over the long-term.

mfc2006

well, i was going to post some advice, my mccreadyisgod NAILED IT!

the key thing is patience & practice. my voice doesn't sound the same as it did 5 years ago, let alone a year ago. it is a constant evolution of learning new vocal techniques/styles and accentuating the good qualities that you already have when you sing.

CJMST3K

When choosing mics, here's some info that Dave Rat (of Rat Sound) posted on YouTube, giving a test of a few mics, including the OM7 that EV uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvUfXxalD7Q

donjantzen

I can tell you... I've bought a lot of mics over the years. I bought an OM7 directly from Rat Sound and it is hands down one of the best mics I've ever used. How many mics can you think of that you can be recording vocals with the studio monitors on and loud... but it never feeds back or bleeds the monitors into the mic itself? Listen to Ed sing "Crazy Mary" from the Live at the Gorge performances. The OM7 picks up every whisper. That's what made me want to get one... and who better to get it from than Rat Sound? Not making a commercial for them, but they were great to deal with. The OM7 rocks.

CJMST3K

donjantzen wrote:

Listen to Ed sing "Crazy Mary" from the Live at the Gorge performances. The OM7 picks up every whisper.

...that, and a good compressor I assume.

donjantzen

Yeah, I've tried to find what they use for front of house on the vocals. I read what they have in the monitor mix and it's minimal. I found this on the Live Sound International site from Karrie Keyes "We use Ramsa preamps and Lexicon PCM60 on Ed’s vocals along with BSS 690 equalization. No compressors or gates - we don’t need them. It’s pretty organic, raw, clear and fun.”

and this from Mike Scerra “Eddie sings well and has really good mic technique, but his vocal range sits in a place where it could potentially get buried in guitar midrange,” relates Scerra. “I’m not sure exactly what the (Rat) modification is, but I get more gain out of the vocals than with a stock OM-7.”

Who knows... I mean I wanna know... but part of me also wants to keep the Wizard behind the curtain.