I have met all my son's teachers and like them all but his math teacher is special in a way that she communicates
and explains the work in a way the kid's understand...yes I went to see my son's classes with out warning
I have met all my son's teachers and like them all but his math teacher is special in a way that she communicates
and explains the work in a way the kid's understand...yes I went to see my son's classes with out warning
Godfather.
Yeah, there are some special teachers out there for sure. One teacher I had in highschool (I'm only one year out), Mr. Costello was a FANTASTIC teacher, but also was always there for advice when I needed it. Even now, he answers e-mails promptly when I'm in a bind (whether it be educational or personal) and is loved by everybody. He's leaving the school this year, and lets just say, I'm glad I'm not there now. It wouldn't be highschool with out him.
Good that you're involved in your kids education!
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I have met all my son's teachers and like them all but his math teacher is special in a way that she communicates
and explains the work in a way the kid's understand...yes I went to see my son's classes with out warning
Godfather.
Yeah, there are some special teachers out there for sure. One teacher I had in highschool (I'm only one year out), Mr. Costello was a FANTASTIC teacher, but also was always there for advice when I needed it. Even now, he answers e-mails promptly when I'm in a bind (whether it be educational or personal) and is loved by everybody. He's leaving the school this year, and lets just say, I'm glad I'm not there now. It wouldn't be highschool with out him.
Good that you're involved in your kids education!
what do think of the world so far(after H.S) and are you or do you plan on going to collage ?
1979 I left school...kicked out and had to get a GED but the world changed that year..not so good but got better after I realized my mistakes and did my best to correct them....choose wisely my friend it can be a long road back
I have met all my son's teachers and like them all but his math teacher is special in a way that she communicates
and explains the work in a way the kid's understand...yes I went to see my son's classes with out warning
Godfather.
Yeah, there are some special teachers out there for sure. One teacher I had in highschool (I'm only one year out), Mr. Costello was a FANTASTIC teacher, but also was always there for advice when I needed it. Even now, he answers e-mails promptly when I'm in a bind (whether it be educational or personal) and is loved by everybody. He's leaving the school this year, and lets just say, I'm glad I'm not there now. It wouldn't be highschool with out him.
Good that you're involved in your kids education!
We had a Mr. Costello at my high school (i'm 4 years out) he looked a bit like Alfred Molina.
I have an older brother which usually gave me the benefit of avoiding bad teachers... My mom would request which teachers I had if she knew there was a particularly bad one coming.
There are a few teachers that really are a big part of your life as a student I think - at least for some of us I guess. I still communicate with one of them every now and then)
My degree is in education and I've taught and coached in high school. My mom was a teacher, my Dad's degee was in education and he's worked as a teacher, my sister-in-law is a teacher. Let's just say I have more than an outsider's view of education - at least in my area.
That being said, I personally believe our school systems are terrible and that there are likely more bad teachers and administrators than good ones. There are so many things that bother me about the state of education that I don't even know where to begin, but suffice it to say the school systems and many of the teachers are doing a large disservice to their students, society and tax paying citizens.
Okay, but that doesn't answer my question. How do you decide who's a shitty teacher and who's a good one?
For those of you talking about shitty teachers versus good teachers.... I'd like to know how you propose that we measure which teachers are shitty and which ones are good.
Considering that the original poster was named teacher of the year, there is obviously at least one way to measure which teachers are doing better. I am sure if you actually asked teachers they could think of tons more.
Also, I can't help but notice that there seems to be more talk about shitty teachers than most any other profession, which I think only serves to propagate the idea that it's the teachers' fault that our education system isn't better. Is this what you believe?
There are of course shitty people in every profession. Except most professions if you are bad at your job you don't get regular raises every year. In fact in most professions if you aren't very good at your job your employer has the option of canning your ass. With teachers as long as you have seniority, unless you do something really bad like beat or molest a kid, it is pretty hard to fire you. And not only that but if you are teaching the same grade year after year, once you develop a lesson plan you job gets easier (so essentially as your job gets easier you make more money).
The teachers here don't get regular raises every year - they actually take home less this year than they did last year - and when they do get raises they are only cost-of-living raises unless they've earned a master's degree or some such thing that moves them to the next "step". (There are only 3 steps.)
I'll point out that, although we don't always meet them in person, we spend many more years of our lives employing the services of trash collectors, mail carriers, physicians, etc. - and yet we don't hear half as much judgement about them, especially not as a group.
I think if you add up the actual time with these people, teachers are going to win hands down. And I don't think it's an indication of being undervalued at all. I think it's the fact that people value education so highly that leads them to criticize poor teachers. And my perception is that bad teachers are rarely fired due to poor performance, could be wrong. Seems like they only get fired for 1) molesting/hurting kids 2) budget cuts.
Thanks. Is it all public school teachers? Every teacher I've known has been in the union.
I don't think we really value education at all in this society. We say we do and that that gives us a right to sit around complaining about teachers, but we never put our money where our mouths are and really provide teachers with the resources they need to succeed. Maybe it's true that bad teachers are rarely fired, but I think bad teachers are the exception, not the rule, but we talk about "bad teachers" in general as if many more teachers are bad and they - not lack of support of education - are to blame for all the failures of the school systems.
Here, at least, public school teachers are not necessarily in the union, though most of them - including the good teachers - choose to be.
Teachers should be held to a higher standard than other professions because it is so hard for them to be fired for poor performance. I HAVE to be union employee and am disgusted by my co-workers on a daily basis. The union protects the poor performers much more than the positve hard working ones. Unfortunately for everyone that means bad teachers get to keep their jobs for quite a long time as long as they do the MINIMUM required not to get fired. That just seems wrong. They are public employees more or less and that gives the right to people to complain more than most other professions. I don't know of one profession I have had where I was not held accountable for my performance. If kids do great, then perfect the teacher gets rewards and accolades, but if the kids do poorly they talk about the underfunded schools and how hard their job is. Poor you. it is never the teachers fault. They should be held accountable for how their kids perform. I am not saying tie their pay to how their kids do as far as grades go, but there should be an improvement in every class room as far as testable knowledge. one kid can not care and screw off, but on average a whole class should improve or the teacher needs to change something up and be held accountable if that trend continues.
And what if the whole class is filled with kids who don't care and screw off?
I'm sure there is a very blurred line and a large grey area, but you should be able to associate who is on which end of the spectrum... take for example (and i'm not trying to be biased) my mom: shows up to work 2 hours before to prepare, make worksheets, keeps her class interactive and always has the highest enrollment (she is an ESL teacher). Her coworker: brings an acoustic guitar to class and sings (this is her idea of teaching ESL)...
And one of the best teachers I ever had used to bring his acoustic guitar to class and sing (he taught English). I never came to class on time and didn't turn in half my work for that class, but I sure learned a lot about life - and about English - that has served me long after I forgot whatever the other teachers had to say. It's all very subjective and different teachers have huge positive impacts on people's lives in different ways, I think.
I'm sure there is a very blurred line and a large grey area, but you should be able to associate who is on which end of the spectrum... take for example (and i'm not trying to be biased) my mom: shows up to work 2 hours before to prepare, make worksheets, keeps her class interactive and always has the highest enrollment (she is an ESL teacher). Her coworker: brings an acoustic guitar to class and sings (this is her idea of teaching ESL)...
And one of the best teachers I ever had used to bring his acoustic guitar to class and sing (he taught English). I never came to class on time and didn't turn in half my work for that class, but I sure learned a lot about life - and about English - that has served me long after I forgot whatever the other teachers had to say. It's all very subjective and different teachers have huge positive impacts on people's lives in different ways, I think.
But isn't it saying something when there are only 4 people enrolled in her class?
This and she pretends to be "sick" to get months off to go to Europe. She goes on "stress leave" that magically falls during the summer (and this is a program funded by the government, so our tax dollars go to good use every summer to pay for her wages whiles shes off in Europe, plus the substitute teacher's wage) but you can't do anything because she's in the union. This literally happens EVERY summer.
My degree is in education and I've taught and coached in high school. My mom was a teacher, my Dad's degee was in education and he's worked as a teacher, my sister-in-law is a teacher. Let's just say I have more than an outsider's view of education - at least in my area.
That being said, I personally believe our school systems are terrible and that there are likely more bad teachers and administrators than good ones. There are so many things that bother me about the state of education that I don't even know where to begin, but suffice it to say the school systems and many of the teachers are doing a large disservice to their students, society and tax paying citizens.
Okay, but that doesn't answer my question. How do you decide who's a shitty teacher and who's a good one?
I think the issue is a lot bigger than determing who is a bad teacher. I think the whole system/administration needs to be overhauled. I think it gives a lot of lip service, but it doesn't back that up with its actions, policies and general display of apathy.
Once the system is fixed, evaluating teachers shouldn't be much different than evaluating personnel in any other profession.
I maintain the system ALLOWS so many teachers to be bad.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Teachers are really underpaided. Its such an important job and not enough money is given to our education system.
I would say that I wouldn't have a problem with teachers being paid more if the system was changed so that the extra money went to teachers who were really good at their jobs; rather than the system most places we have now where the highest paid teachers are the ones who have showed up for the longest (and have managed to avoid showing up drunk or touching kids). In Ontario for example the teachers in the highest pay grade (the ones with the most senority) can make 6 figures.
I don't know where you live, but where I live there are NO teachers that make six-figures. All teachers here make within 10K - 20K of each other, and it's not based on seniority, but on tier-level you aim for. With the budget crunch going on everywhere, what I see around here is a lot of ageism disguised as "I'm a good teacher and deserve to stay, while that old bat that has been here forever should go." Regardless of the fact that the old bat is a good teacher. But somehow they're not good because they're older. There are some bad teachers of all ages that should go, but just to categorically say that old teachers that have been showing up forever are bad--or to imply the same--is just another form of self-serving discrimination.
I am against seeing teachers "who are really good" at their jobs get extra pay until I see what "really good" means. If it means that you work at a cushy school where you have mostly upper middle class parents and kids that score really well on standardized tests, then you are really rewarding the laziest, although admittedly brightest and least masochistic teachers for being lazy and smart enough to know easy pickings when they see it. Am I a little jealous? Could be. I work in a poverty-ridden school that "never" makes the standardized tests. Rate of homework turn-in averaged 5 of 24 students all year despite varying motivational enticements. Parent night netted me those five parents. 95% of the kids are second-language learners. 50% of my class is made up of students not at this school 2 years ago. I once called a parent to say that their kid was not doing a science fair project and if they didn't do one, they'd fail in science. The parent's response? "I told my child they don't have to do anything they don't want to. I don't care if my child gets a zero. Got it?" Oh, yeah. I did. So, by many subjective measures my colleagues and I would appear to be very BAD teachers. One look at our standardize scores will "prove" it.
What's GOOD, though? The fact of the matter is I myself am not always a bad teacher. I teach summer school where all of my motivated students (nearly all) from around the city gained between one and two years in reading. Parents, some of them teachers themselves at the "best" schools in the city say that I am the BEST teacher their kid has ever had and shower me with gifts because their kids make such huge gains. I have to admit, I love being loved. I love being the best of teachers...I would love to get paid for being the best accordingly. I deserve it. I'm the best! I like touting that my students have made phenomenal advances in reading, if that's what I'm teaching. I'm the same teacher, but my location changes whether I'm the cream of the crop or the dregs of teaching. Among the very best teachers in the city and the very worst. That's me. I am one talented woman. Although, actually, what I do is roughly the same in both locations (I use a lot more ESL strategies with the ELL students, doh.) The difference I see between the two sets of students is not me...I'm the same person. What I see the difference as is parental involvement and motivation to see a student succeed. At the school where I'm fantastic, I'm fantastic because it's not all me. When the student goes home, the parent continues the learning day by working with the child to make certain, at the minimum, that homework is completed and often checked by an adult. In other words, teaching continues. Practice makes sure that learning gets into long-term memory for the student. At the school where I suck, when the student goes home, that is the end of the learning day. The child has only what they paid attention to in class. And tomorrow the student has only what he or she can remember of yesterday. Sometimes, that is almost nothing. Nothing plus nothing ... well, even a bad teacher can do that math--unless they are too old to, or too old and too drunk to, or too old and too busy groping to. Heck, all three. Fire the old teachers already! Old women are useless. Lose 'em.
So, when deciding who's good and who's a bad teacher, something very fair is going to have to happen. Teachers teaching at "easy" schools should not also be able to pick up on easy money, while teachers who are working much harder at the more challenging schools should not automatically be labeled as "bad" when students under-perform. As the best teacher in the city and the worst one, I do have something to contribute to the conversation and solution.
Btw, I'm not an "old teacher," nor am I a "new one." I'm somewhere in the middle. I've been teaching about 10 years. But I am a woman of the middle-aged variety who knows that someday, sooner rather than later, I'm going to be an old woman. And I know that when I get there, I'm a prime candidate for being written off, both literally and figuratively, no matter how vital I or my contributions may be. It really is stomach turning to me to hear what some of my younger colleagues have to say about the "old" teachers at our school...teachers who really are some of the true gems, but who are women who are old and therefore "worthless."
There's GOOD accountants who really do want to go the extra mile to save the client taxes, and BAD accountants who only want the fee and do only the minumum work necessary.
There's GOOD garbage collectors who will bend down and pick up that tomato-sauced wax paper from inside the pizza box that fell out, and BAD garbage collectors who hop right back on the truck leaving the tomato-sauced wax paper from inside the pizza box to blow around the neighborhood all day unitl Sparky the short-legged, steel-balled dog shreds it.
There's GOOD teachers who really have the students' learning & growth first & formost in their agenda and there's BAD teachers--you know, the meat grinders from The Wall.
In the legal profession....
ok, well maybe not ALL professions have GOOD, but anyway,
I'd never want to be a teacher....
You have to perform almost every moment, every day
You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
You have to deal with each of their parents
You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
There's GOOD accountants who really do want to go the extra mile to save the client taxes, and BAD accountants who only want the fee and do only the minumum work necessary.
There's GOOD garbage collectors who will bend down and pick up that tomato-sauced wax paper from inside the pizza box that fell out, and BAD garbage collectors who hop right back on the truck leaving the tomato-sauced wax paper from inside the pizza box to blow around the neighborhood all day unitl Sparky the short-legged, steel-balled dog shreds it.
There's GOOD teachers who really have the students' learning & growth first & formost in their agenda and there's BAD teachers--you know, the meat grinders from The Wall.
just by your post alone I have to give teachers credit for choosing a job with those work conditions it's been a few years..30+ years but remember all the crap we put our teachers through and I remember a few grinders also but over all good teachers back then.
Godfather.
In the legal profession....
ok, well maybe not ALL professions have GOOD, but anyway,
I'd never want to be a teacher....
You have to perform almost every moment, every day
You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
You have to deal with each of their parents
You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
1) You have to perform almost every moment, every day
2) You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
3) You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
4) You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
5) You have to deal with each of their parents
6) You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
7) There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
I work in manufacturing.
1) Same in every job here. Teachers are not unique.
2) Sometimes dealing with "adults" is tougher. I'd say teachers are not entirely unique, depending on your job and how many people you have to interact with.
3) Teacher are not unique.
4) Teachers are not unique.
5) HERE is where teachers are fairly unique and is a BIG problem.
6) Teachers are not unique.
7) teachers are not unique.
1) You have to perform almost every moment, every day
2) You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
3) You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
4) You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
5) You have to deal with each of their parents
6) You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
7) There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
I work in manufacturing.
1) Same in every job here. Teachers are not unique.
2) Sometimes dealing with "adults" is tougher. I'd say teachers are not entirely unique, depending on your job and how many people you have to interact with.
3) Teacher are not unique.
4) Teachers are not unique.
5) HERE is where teachers are fairly unique and is a BIG problem.
6) Teachers are not unique.
7) teachers are not unique.
1 out of 5 ain't bad.
By "perform" I mean in front of an "audience" requiring forethought of the presentation/lesson plans. I don't mean "perfrom" as in "work".
"interact" with is not the same as being "100% in charge of 100% of the time".
Do you mean manufacture as in an assembly line? That's the same as being a teacher?
Maybe you're not kidding about the 1 out of 5?!?!
1) You have to perform almost every moment, every day
2) You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
3) You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
4) You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
5) You have to deal with each of their parents
6) You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
7) There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
1) You have to perform almost every moment, every day
2) You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
3) You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
4) You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
5) You have to deal with each of their parents
6) You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
7) There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
I work in manufacturing.
1) Same in every job here. Teachers are not unique.
2) Sometimes dealing with "adults" is tougher. I'd say teachers are not entirely unique, depending on your job and how many people you have to interact with.
3) Teacher are not unique.
4) Teachers are not unique.
5) HERE is where teachers are fairly unique and is a BIG problem.
6) Teachers are not unique.
7) teachers are not unique.
1 out of 5 ain't bad.
By "perform" I mean in front of an "audience" requiring forethought of the presentation/lesson plans. I don't mean "perfrom" as in "work".
"interact" with is not the same as being "100% in charge of 100% of the time".
Do you mean manufacture as in an assembly line? That's the same as being a teacher?
Maybe you're not kidding about the 1 out of 5?!?!
There are jobs where you are "performing" in front of an "audience" most of the day. And much requires planning. I think it is silly to think otherwise.
Being in charge...you don't think anyone runs a department of people all day long? 24 hours? Making decisions all day?
No, I'm talking about managers...heck, my job basically has me "teaching" most days and interacting with over 500 people throughout the year...just in my plant...not to mention those outside.
Anyhow, I think it is silly that people think Teachers have a much different job then some other do in other fields. The parent aspect is the 1 thing that separate them. And, I'm not sure if it's better dealing with kids or with adults....especially when you are tyring to get them to do something they don't like.
I'm sure there is a very blurred line and a large grey area, but you should be able to associate who is on which end of the spectrum... take for example (and i'm not trying to be biased) my mom: shows up to work 2 hours before to prepare, make worksheets, keeps her class interactive and always has the highest enrollment (she is an ESL teacher). Her coworker: brings an acoustic guitar to class and sings (this is her idea of teaching ESL)...
And one of the best teachers I ever had used to bring his acoustic guitar to class and sing (he taught English). I never came to class on time and didn't turn in half my work for that class, but I sure learned a lot about life - and about English - that has served me long after I forgot whatever the other teachers had to say. It's all very subjective and different teachers have huge positive impacts on people's lives in different ways, I think.
But isn't it saying something when there are only 4 people enrolled in her class?
This and she pretends to be "sick" to get months off to go to Europe. She goes on "stress leave" that magically falls during the summer (and this is a program funded by the government, so our tax dollars go to good use every summer to pay for her wages whiles shes off in Europe, plus the substitute teacher's wage) but you can't do anything because she's in the union. This literally happens EVERY summer.
I don't think having only 4 students NECESSARILY tells us she's a bad teacher. Also, I don't know enough about how her school's leave program works. If she's violating the rules, then obviously that's a problem. Is school year-round in Canada?
I never came to class on time and didn't turn in half my work for that class
Perhaps you shouldn't be condemning others for not valuing education. :shock:
Yet I still learned enough to score high enough on the AP English exam to get credit for all the required college English courses, which was kind of the purpose of the class. Regardless, I'm pretty sure I haven't condemned others for not valuing education. It's 7:30 AM that I don't value.
I don't know where you live, but where I live there are NO teachers that make six-figures. All teachers here make within 10K - 20K of each other, and it's not based on seniority, but on tier-level you aim for. With the budget crunch going on everywhere, what I see around here is a lot of ageism disguised as "I'm a good teacher and deserve to stay, while that old bat that has been here forever should go." Regardless of the fact that the old bat is a good teacher. But somehow they're not good because they're older. There are some bad teachers of all ages that should go, but just to categorically say that old teachers that have been showing up forever are bad--or to imply the same--is just another form of self-serving discrimination.
I am against seeing teachers "who are really good" at their jobs get extra pay until I see what "really good" means. If it means that you work at a cushy school where you have mostly upper middle class parents and kids that score really well on standardized tests, then you are really rewarding the laziest, although admittedly brightest and least masochistic teachers for being lazy and smart enough to know easy pickings when they see it. Am I a little jealous? Could be. I work in a poverty-ridden school that "never" makes the standardized tests. Rate of homework turn-in averaged 5 of 24 students all year despite varying motivational enticements. Parent night netted me those five parents. 95% of the kids are second-language learners. 50% of my class is made up of students not at this school 2 years ago. I once called a parent to say that their kid was not doing a science fair project and if they didn't do one, they'd fail in science. The parent's response? "I told my child they don't have to do anything they don't want to. I don't care if my child gets a zero. Got it?" Oh, yeah. I did. So, by many subjective measures my colleagues and I would appear to be very BAD teachers. One look at our standardize scores will "prove" it.
What's GOOD, though? The fact of the matter is I myself am not always a bad teacher. I teach summer school where all of my motivated students (nearly all) from around the city gained between one and two years in reading. Parents, some of them teachers themselves at the "best" schools in the city say that I am the BEST teacher their kid has ever had and shower me with gifts because their kids make such huge gains. I have to admit, I love being loved. I love being the best of teachers...I would love to get paid for being the best accordingly. I deserve it. I'm the best! I like touting that my students have made phenomenal advances in reading, if that's what I'm teaching. I'm the same teacher, but my location changes whether I'm the cream of the crop or the dregs of teaching. Among the very best teachers in the city and the very worst. That's me. I am one talented woman. Although, actually, what I do is roughly the same in both locations (I use a lot more ESL strategies with the ELL students, doh.) The difference I see between the two sets of students is not me...I'm the same person. What I see the difference as is parental involvement and motivation to see a student succeed. At the school where I'm fantastic, I'm fantastic because it's not all me. When the student goes home, the parent continues the learning day by working with the child to make certain, at the minimum, that homework is completed and often checked by an adult. In other words, teaching continues. Practice makes sure that learning gets into long-term memory for the student. At the school where I suck, when the student goes home, that is the end of the learning day. The child has only what they paid attention to in class. And tomorrow the student has only what he or she can remember of yesterday. Sometimes, that is almost nothing. Nothing plus nothing ... well, even a bad teacher can do that math--unless they are too old to, or too old and too drunk to, or too old and too busy groping to. Heck, all three. Fire the old teachers already! Old women are useless. Lose 'em.
So, when deciding who's good and who's a bad teacher, something very fair is going to have to happen. Teachers teaching at "easy" schools should not also be able to pick up on easy money, while teachers who are working much harder at the more challenging schools should not automatically be labeled as "bad" when students under-perform. As the best teacher in the city and the worst one, I do have something to contribute to the conversation and solution.
Btw, I'm not an "old teacher," nor am I a "new one." I'm somewhere in the middle. I've been teaching about 10 years. But I am a woman of the middle-aged variety who knows that someday, sooner rather than later, I'm going to be an old woman. And I know that when I get there, I'm a prime candidate for being written off, both literally and figuratively, no matter how vital I or my contributions may be. It really is stomach turning to me to hear what some of my younger colleagues have to say about the "old" teachers at our school...teachers who really are some of the true gems, but who are women who are old and therefore "worthless."
I would add that this attitude about teachers, especially older ones, being worthless is passed on to the students, who then treat their teachers and classes like they are worthless. My mom once had a student tell her, "Why should I listen to you? You're just a teacher; you haven't gotten anywhere in life and no one even respects you."
Anyhow, I think it is silly that people think Teachers have a much different job then some other do in other fields. The parent aspect is the 1 thing that separate them. And, I'm not sure if it's better dealing with kids or with adults....especially when you are tyring to get them to do something they don't like.
Whether or not teachers' jobs are "different" than other fields is irrelevant. (Though I'd have to say they generally are.) Teachers' jobs are more important than most other jobs.
Anyhow, I think it is silly that people think Teachers have a much different job then some other do in other fields. The parent aspect is the 1 thing that separate them. And, I'm not sure if it's better dealing with kids or with adults....especially when you are tyring to get them to do something they don't like.
Whether or not teachers' jobs are "different" than other fields is irrelevant. (Though I'd have to say they generally are.) Teachers' jobs are more important than most other jobs.
I'd venture to guess that if we as a society valued Parenthood as much as we should, we wouldn't have to worry as much about "bad teachers" or under-valuing education.
Teachers certainly have an important job. It's nice that they get 1/4 of the year to unwind and get ready for another 3/4 year of work.
I don't think having only 4 students NECESSARILY tells us she's a bad teacher. Also, I don't know enough about how her school's leave program works. If she's violating the rules, then obviously that's a problem. Is school year-round in Canada?
No, basically my mom is an ESL teacher, she works for a school board but the program she's been doing for the last 4 or 5 years is funded by the government... basically it is a program that offers ESL courses to immigrants who couldn't otherwise afford to pay a private school. They make really decent money but their contracts outline they work all 4 seasons with 2 week breaks in between courses. So this teacher - instead of teaching elsewhere where she gets the summer off - stays in this program but suddenly gets "stressed" every summer, and goes on a 6 week vacation (paid for by the taxpayers, in a sense). With budget shortfalls rampant all over the province I don't think is really fair that she gets away with it but because she is in the union there's nothing they can do, even though everyone knows it happens.
Apparently the lady is a total bitch to everyone she works with as well :shock: ...some teachers won't even teach at the same school if they know she's working there.
Teachers should be held to a higher standard than other professions because it is so hard for them to be fired for poor performance. I HAVE to be union employee and am disgusted by my co-workers on a daily basis. The union protects the poor performers much more than the positve hard working ones. Unfortunately for everyone that means bad teachers get to keep their jobs for quite a long time as long as they do the MINIMUM required not to get fired. That just seems wrong. They are public employees more or less and that gives the right to people to complain more than most other professions. I don't know of one profession I have had where I was not held accountable for my performance. If kids do great, then perfect the teacher gets rewards and accolades, but if the kids do poorly they talk about the underfunded schools and how hard their job is. Poor you. it is never the teachers fault. They should be held accountable for how their kids perform. I am not saying tie their pay to how their kids do as far as grades go, but there should be an improvement in every class room as far as testable knowledge. one kid can not care and screw off, but on average a whole class should improve or the teacher needs to change something up and be held accountable if that trend continues.
And what if the whole class is filled with kids who don't care and screw off?
it is the job of the teacher to not have that. Simple enough, if the kids don't care it is the job of the educators to reach out and grab them. You cannot get through life worrying about what ifs...Kids need tachers who won't let that stop them. If the people don't want to give that much effort they should choose a different profession.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Teachers should be held to a higher standard than other professions because it is so hard for them to be fired for poor performance. I HAVE to be union employee and am disgusted by my co-workers on a daily basis. The union protects the poor performers much more than the positve hard working ones. Unfortunately for everyone that means bad teachers get to keep their jobs for quite a long time as long as they do the MINIMUM required not to get fired. That just seems wrong. They are public employees more or less and that gives the right to people to complain more than most other professions. I don't know of one profession I have had where I was not held accountable for my performance. If kids do great, then perfect the teacher gets rewards and accolades, but if the kids do poorly they talk about the underfunded schools and how hard their job is. Poor you. it is never the teachers fault. They should be held accountable for how their kids perform. I am not saying tie their pay to how their kids do as far as grades go, but there should be an improvement in every class room as far as testable knowledge. one kid can not care and screw off, but on average a whole class should improve or the teacher needs to change something up and be held accountable if that trend continues.
And what if the whole class is filled with kids who don't care and screw off?
it is the job of the teacher to not have that. Simple enough, if the kids don't care it is the job of the educators to reach out and grab them. You cannot get through life worrying about what ifs...Kids need tachers who won't let that stop them. If the people don't want to give that much effort they should choose a different profession.
I don't feel like your sense of what all teachers should be doing is really grounded in reality for all teachers.
Let me tell you about my mom's class: My mom teaches high school special ed and, because she handles them best, gets many of the behaviorly disordered and emotionally disturbed kids, as well as kids who just have major learning disabilities. It's nothing short of a miracle that her kids generally improve. She gets all kinds of students with all different kinds of learning disabilities in one class together, so there is no specific teaching method that can be used for the whole class.
She deals with kids who are violent, who are in gangs, who threaten her, who start fights in her classroom, who are kicked out of other schools, who are serial child molesters, who murder people, and who then call her from prison to say she's the best teacher they ever had. She deals with kids who miss school on a regular basis because they are homeless, pregnant, high, apathetic, too poor to get a ride when they miss the bus, have to work to support their parents/siblings/children, etc. She deals with kids who regularly come to class completely high but come to school to sell drugs. She deals with kids who are bounced around from foster home to foster home, who are rarely able to participate in any sports team or extracurricular activity, and who are ridiculed by the rest of the student body for being in special ed. And these are just their social problems that affect their education - they still have the myriad learning disabilities that got them put in her class in the first place.
When kids are dealing with these social issues, they are much less able to focus and learn. (Remember Maslow's heirarchy of needs? Remember Ed's story about dropping out of school because the teachers couldn't understand that he was falling asleep in class because he was up late working to pay his bills?) Because she knows this - and because she loves the kids and knows that they need to know it and trust her before they will learn from her - my mom helps them get pregnancy tests and prenatal care and throws them baby showers. She gives them rides home from school and gives them and their parents rides to work. She uses her last bit of money to buy them food when they can't afford to eat. She spends her prep periods and after school time listening to & helping kids who just turned 18 and are being kicked out of their foster homes, who don't know how to handle their parents' drug addiction, who are too afraid to mingle with the other kids at lunch or ride the buses home, or who just need extra help with their homework. She even gives some of the kids her home phone number and they call her at night, on weekends, over the summers, and long after they have graduated when they find themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle, with no one they can turn to for support.
And in between all of this, she must teach the kids. She must ensure that every single one of them progresses at a standardized rate, despite their non-standard abilities and situations. She must meet the goals set by people who have never taught special ed and face the judement of people who have never taught at all.
So, on behalf of my mom & all the other hard-working teachers out there in reality, I take offense to your suggestion that teachers whose classes are filled with kids who don't care and who screw off are simply not putting forth a good enough effort and should choose another profession. Actually, the more I think about it, the more offended I become.
Comments
and explains the work in a way the kid's understand...yes I went to see my son's classes with out warning
Godfather.
Good that you're involved in your kids education!
what do think of the world so far(after H.S) and are you or do you plan on going to collage ?
1979 I left school...kicked out and had to get a GED but the world changed that year..not so good but got better after I realized my mistakes and did my best to correct them....choose wisely my friend it can be a long road back
Godfather.
I have an older brother which usually gave me the benefit of avoiding bad teachers... My mom would request which teachers I had if she knew there was a particularly bad one coming.
There are a few teachers that really are a big part of your life as a student I think - at least for some of us I guess. I still communicate with one of them every now and then)
Okay, but that doesn't answer my question. How do you decide who's a shitty teacher and who's a good one?
The teachers here don't get regular raises every year - they actually take home less this year than they did last year - and when they do get raises they are only cost-of-living raises unless they've earned a master's degree or some such thing that moves them to the next "step". (There are only 3 steps.)
I don't think we really value education at all in this society. We say we do and that that gives us a right to sit around complaining about teachers, but we never put our money where our mouths are and really provide teachers with the resources they need to succeed. Maybe it's true that bad teachers are rarely fired, but I think bad teachers are the exception, not the rule, but we talk about "bad teachers" in general as if many more teachers are bad and they - not lack of support of education - are to blame for all the failures of the school systems.
Here, at least, public school teachers are not necessarily in the union, though most of them - including the good teachers - choose to be.
And what if the whole class is filled with kids who don't care and screw off?
And one of the best teachers I ever had used to bring his acoustic guitar to class and sing (he taught English). I never came to class on time and didn't turn in half my work for that class, but I sure learned a lot about life - and about English - that has served me long after I forgot whatever the other teachers had to say. It's all very subjective and different teachers have huge positive impacts on people's lives in different ways, I think.
This and she pretends to be "sick" to get months off to go to Europe. She goes on "stress leave" that magically falls during the summer (and this is a program funded by the government, so our tax dollars go to good use every summer to pay for her wages whiles shes off in Europe, plus the substitute teacher's wage) but you can't do anything because she's in the union. This literally happens EVERY summer.
I think the issue is a lot bigger than determing who is a bad teacher. I think the whole system/administration needs to be overhauled. I think it gives a lot of lip service, but it doesn't back that up with its actions, policies and general display of apathy.
Once the system is fixed, evaluating teachers shouldn't be much different than evaluating personnel in any other profession.
I maintain the system ALLOWS so many teachers to be bad.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Perhaps you shouldn't be condemning others for not valuing education. :shock:
I don't know where you live, but where I live there are NO teachers that make six-figures. All teachers here make within 10K - 20K of each other, and it's not based on seniority, but on tier-level you aim for. With the budget crunch going on everywhere, what I see around here is a lot of ageism disguised as "I'm a good teacher and deserve to stay, while that old bat that has been here forever should go." Regardless of the fact that the old bat is a good teacher. But somehow they're not good because they're older. There are some bad teachers of all ages that should go, but just to categorically say that old teachers that have been showing up forever are bad--or to imply the same--is just another form of self-serving discrimination.
I am against seeing teachers "who are really good" at their jobs get extra pay until I see what "really good" means. If it means that you work at a cushy school where you have mostly upper middle class parents and kids that score really well on standardized tests, then you are really rewarding the laziest, although admittedly brightest and least masochistic teachers for being lazy and smart enough to know easy pickings when they see it. Am I a little jealous? Could be. I work in a poverty-ridden school that "never" makes the standardized tests. Rate of homework turn-in averaged 5 of 24 students all year despite varying motivational enticements. Parent night netted me those five parents. 95% of the kids are second-language learners. 50% of my class is made up of students not at this school 2 years ago. I once called a parent to say that their kid was not doing a science fair project and if they didn't do one, they'd fail in science. The parent's response? "I told my child they don't have to do anything they don't want to. I don't care if my child gets a zero. Got it?" Oh, yeah. I did. So, by many subjective measures my colleagues and I would appear to be very BAD teachers. One look at our standardize scores will "prove" it.
What's GOOD, though? The fact of the matter is I myself am not always a bad teacher. I teach summer school where all of my motivated students (nearly all) from around the city gained between one and two years in reading. Parents, some of them teachers themselves at the "best" schools in the city say that I am the BEST teacher their kid has ever had and shower me with gifts because their kids make such huge gains. I have to admit, I love being loved. I love being the best of teachers...I would love to get paid for being the best accordingly. I deserve it. I'm the best! I like touting that my students have made phenomenal advances in reading, if that's what I'm teaching. I'm the same teacher, but my location changes whether I'm the cream of the crop or the dregs of teaching. Among the very best teachers in the city and the very worst. That's me. I am one talented woman. Although, actually, what I do is roughly the same in both locations (I use a lot more ESL strategies with the ELL students, doh.) The difference I see between the two sets of students is not me...I'm the same person. What I see the difference as is parental involvement and motivation to see a student succeed. At the school where I'm fantastic, I'm fantastic because it's not all me. When the student goes home, the parent continues the learning day by working with the child to make certain, at the minimum, that homework is completed and often checked by an adult. In other words, teaching continues. Practice makes sure that learning gets into long-term memory for the student. At the school where I suck, when the student goes home, that is the end of the learning day. The child has only what they paid attention to in class. And tomorrow the student has only what he or she can remember of yesterday. Sometimes, that is almost nothing. Nothing plus nothing ... well, even a bad teacher can do that math--unless they are too old to, or too old and too drunk to, or too old and too busy groping to. Heck, all three. Fire the old teachers already! Old women are useless. Lose 'em.
So, when deciding who's good and who's a bad teacher, something very fair is going to have to happen. Teachers teaching at "easy" schools should not also be able to pick up on easy money, while teachers who are working much harder at the more challenging schools should not automatically be labeled as "bad" when students under-perform. As the best teacher in the city and the worst one, I do have something to contribute to the conversation and solution.
Btw, I'm not an "old teacher," nor am I a "new one." I'm somewhere in the middle. I've been teaching about 10 years. But I am a woman of the middle-aged variety who knows that someday, sooner rather than later, I'm going to be an old woman. And I know that when I get there, I'm a prime candidate for being written off, both literally and figuratively, no matter how vital I or my contributions may be. It really is stomach turning to me to hear what some of my younger colleagues have to say about the "old" teachers at our school...teachers who really are some of the true gems, but who are women who are old and therefore "worthless."
In all professions, there's good and bad.
There's GOOD accountants who really do want to go the extra mile to save the client taxes, and BAD accountants who only want the fee and do only the minumum work necessary.
There's GOOD garbage collectors who will bend down and pick up that tomato-sauced wax paper from inside the pizza box that fell out, and BAD garbage collectors who hop right back on the truck leaving the tomato-sauced wax paper from inside the pizza box to blow around the neighborhood all day unitl Sparky the short-legged, steel-balled dog shreds it.
There's GOOD teachers who really have the students' learning & growth first & formost in their agenda and there's BAD teachers--you know, the meat grinders from The Wall.
In the legal profession....
ok, well maybe not ALL professions have GOOD, but anyway,
I'd never want to be a teacher....
You have to perform almost every moment, every day
You have to deal with a classroom of children, preteens or teenagers
You have to face that same bunch everyday whether you like them or not
You have to pretend that you like some kids when you don't
You have to deal with each of their parents
You have to deal with each of the personalities and adjust to each of their learning styles.
There's no way that they could get adequately compensated for doing all that yucky stuff.
I work in manufacturing.
1) Same in every job here. Teachers are not unique.
2) Sometimes dealing with "adults" is tougher. I'd say teachers are not entirely unique, depending on your job and how many people you have to interact with.
3) Teacher are not unique.
4) Teachers are not unique.
5) HERE is where teachers are fairly unique and is a BIG problem.
6) Teachers are not unique.
7) teachers are not unique.
1 out of 5 ain't bad.
By "perform" I mean in front of an "audience" requiring forethought of the presentation/lesson plans. I don't mean "perfrom" as in "work".
"interact" with is not the same as being "100% in charge of 100% of the time".
Do you mean manufacture as in an assembly line? That's the same as being a teacher?
Maybe you're not kidding about the 1 out of 5?!?!
#5 might be the biggest deterrent for me..
There are jobs where you are "performing" in front of an "audience" most of the day. And much requires planning. I think it is silly to think otherwise.
Being in charge...you don't think anyone runs a department of people all day long? 24 hours? Making decisions all day?
No, I'm talking about managers...heck, my job basically has me "teaching" most days and interacting with over 500 people throughout the year...just in my plant...not to mention those outside.
Anyhow, I think it is silly that people think Teachers have a much different job then some other do in other fields. The parent aspect is the 1 thing that separate them. And, I'm not sure if it's better dealing with kids or with adults....especially when you are tyring to get them to do something they don't like.
Hahaha...I messed that up, meant 1 out of 7...but it was #5 that was different so got stuck in my head.
I don't think having only 4 students NECESSARILY tells us she's a bad teacher. Also, I don't know enough about how her school's leave program works. If she's violating the rules, then obviously that's a problem. Is school year-round in Canada?
Yet I still learned enough to score high enough on the AP English exam to get credit for all the required college English courses, which was kind of the purpose of the class. Regardless, I'm pretty sure I haven't condemned others for not valuing education. It's 7:30 AM that I don't value.
I would add that this attitude about teachers, especially older ones, being worthless is passed on to the students, who then treat their teachers and classes like they are worthless. My mom once had a student tell her, "Why should I listen to you? You're just a teacher; you haven't gotten anywhere in life and no one even respects you."
What grade level do you teach?
Whether or not teachers' jobs are "different" than other fields is irrelevant. (Though I'd have to say they generally are.) Teachers' jobs are more important than most other jobs.
I'd venture to guess that if we as a society valued Parenthood as much as we should, we wouldn't have to worry as much about "bad teachers" or under-valuing education.
Teachers certainly have an important job. It's nice that they get 1/4 of the year to unwind and get ready for another 3/4 year of work.
Apparently the lady is a total bitch to everyone she works with as well :shock: ...some teachers won't even teach at the same school if they know she's working there.
it is the job of the teacher to not have that. Simple enough, if the kids don't care it is the job of the educators to reach out and grab them. You cannot get through life worrying about what ifs...Kids need tachers who won't let that stop them. If the people don't want to give that much effort they should choose a different profession.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
talk about biased..
I guess you're not out to make friends around here. :roll:
I don't feel like your sense of what all teachers should be doing is really grounded in reality for all teachers.
Let me tell you about my mom's class: My mom teaches high school special ed and, because she handles them best, gets many of the behaviorly disordered and emotionally disturbed kids, as well as kids who just have major learning disabilities. It's nothing short of a miracle that her kids generally improve. She gets all kinds of students with all different kinds of learning disabilities in one class together, so there is no specific teaching method that can be used for the whole class.
She deals with kids who are violent, who are in gangs, who threaten her, who start fights in her classroom, who are kicked out of other schools, who are serial child molesters, who murder people, and who then call her from prison to say she's the best teacher they ever had. She deals with kids who miss school on a regular basis because they are homeless, pregnant, high, apathetic, too poor to get a ride when they miss the bus, have to work to support their parents/siblings/children, etc. She deals with kids who regularly come to class completely high but come to school to sell drugs. She deals with kids who are bounced around from foster home to foster home, who are rarely able to participate in any sports team or extracurricular activity, and who are ridiculed by the rest of the student body for being in special ed. And these are just their social problems that affect their education - they still have the myriad learning disabilities that got them put in her class in the first place.
When kids are dealing with these social issues, they are much less able to focus and learn. (Remember Maslow's heirarchy of needs? Remember Ed's story about dropping out of school because the teachers couldn't understand that he was falling asleep in class because he was up late working to pay his bills?) Because she knows this - and because she loves the kids and knows that they need to know it and trust her before they will learn from her - my mom helps them get pregnancy tests and prenatal care and throws them baby showers. She gives them rides home from school and gives them and their parents rides to work. She uses her last bit of money to buy them food when they can't afford to eat. She spends her prep periods and after school time listening to & helping kids who just turned 18 and are being kicked out of their foster homes, who don't know how to handle their parents' drug addiction, who are too afraid to mingle with the other kids at lunch or ride the buses home, or who just need extra help with their homework. She even gives some of the kids her home phone number and they call her at night, on weekends, over the summers, and long after they have graduated when they find themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle, with no one they can turn to for support.
And in between all of this, she must teach the kids. She must ensure that every single one of them progresses at a standardized rate, despite their non-standard abilities and situations. She must meet the goals set by people who have never taught special ed and face the judement of people who have never taught at all.
So, on behalf of my mom & all the other hard-working teachers out there in reality, I take offense to your suggestion that teachers whose classes are filled with kids who don't care and who screw off are simply not putting forth a good enough effort and should choose another profession. Actually, the more I think about it, the more offended I become.