Health & Safety Regulations

__ Posts: 6,651
edited April 2010 in A Moving Train
There have been many conversations lately about government infringement (or lack thereof) upon the rights of individuals through health and safety regulation. My belief is that these issues are not black and white, and that judgments must be made, taking costs and benefits into consideration. But some people seem to believe that things are more clear cut, and that some regulations are OBVIOUSLY an infringement upon people's rights and should not be enacted. I am genuinely confused about what people think are reasonable versus unreasonable regulations. So I would like to know what all of you thing about these:

1. Car seat requirements
2. Seat belt requirements for adults
3. Seat belt requirements for children
4. Speed limits
5. Stop signs and traffic lights
6. Driver's license requirements
7. Car insurance requirements
8. Health insurance requirements
9. Medical license requirements
10. Healthcare regulations (sterilization of instruments, etc.)
11. Spa regulations (sterilization of instruments, etc.)
12. Fish pedicure bans
13. Tattoo regulations (sterilization of instruments, etc.)
14. Tattoo age requirements
15. Smoking age requirements
16. Drinking age requirements
17. Marijuana bans
18. Heroin bans
19. Mandatory education
20. Child labor laws
21. Childcare facility regulations
22. Child neglect laws and the ways in which they are implemented
23. Child abuse laws and the ways in which they are implemented
24. Laws regulating the sexual activity of minors
25. Laws regulating the sexual activity of adults
26. Prostitution bans
27. Requirements that prostitutes wear condoms (where prostitution is legal)
28. Strip club regulations
29. Regulations in strip clubs that serve food
30. Laws requiring you to spay/neuter your pets
31. Laws forbidding abuse of pets
32. Laws forbidding cockfighting and dog fights
33. ADA laws
34. Laws requiring stairs to be a certain height
35. Child pornography laws
36. Laws regulating the disposal of human remains
37. Workplace safety laws
38. Laws requiring the availability of nutritional information for food
39. Taxpayer-funded sidewalks
40. Taxpayer-funded bicycle lanes
41. Laws requiring car manufacturers to provide seat belts in all vehicles
42. Laws requiring car manufacturers to provide air bags in all vehicles
43. Laws that prohibit smoking on airplanes.
44. Laws that prohibit smoking indoors in bars
45. Laws that prohibit smoking indoors in hospitals
46. Seat belt requirements on airplanes
47. Being made to put your seat back in it's upright position, put your tray tables up, and stow away all carry-ons under the seat in front of you during take-off and landing on airplanes
48. Laws forbidding train drivers from texting
49. Laws forbidding car drivers from texting
50. Regulations about what food can be served at schools

Okay, those are just the first ones I thought of. Please list others, too, if you's like.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    What about laws that:
    1. Require inspection of meats before they're sold to consumers. (USDA)
    2. Require that drinking water be treated before it's used by consumers. (Clean Water Act - EPA)
    3. Require that aircraft comply with safety inspections and communications. (FAA)
    4. Prohibit usury (excessive interest charged by lenders) <none>
    5. Prohibit dumping of hazardous waste into our environment. (EPA)
    6. Require a minimum wage. (Labor)
    7. Provide Medicare and Social Security to our seniors. <Social Security, Medicare>
    8. Require that you be paid overtime if you work over a set number of hours. (Labor)
    9. Require licensing of broadcasters so nobody interferes with another's signal. (FCC)
    10. Mandate that the Internet abide by strict TCP/IP and other guidelines so that every time you type "community.pearljam.com" in your browser you're brought to this site, and ONLY to this site. (FCC)
    11. Require that motor vehicles pass tests before they're sold (HTSPFA)
    12. Prohibit companies from selling defective or dangerous products. (various)
    13. Require your house be properly wired and grounded for electrical circuits. (various)
    14. Require that your house be structurally sound so as not to collapse if an earthquake hits. (various)
    15. Prohibit use of dangerous substances in your house, such as asbestos insulation, or lead pipes or paint. (various)
    16. Protect your savings accounts so if your bank fails, you don't lose your money (FDIC)


    And so on...
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • haffajappahaffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    people used to always tell me "i'm going to buy this exact same car seat cheaper in the US"
    to which I would reply, "feel free, ma'am... but you won't be allowed to use it legally in Canada."


    our car seat regulations are a lot stricter...


    your drinking age is crap though!!!!!!!!!!!!
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • #17 reminds me of a sign I saw yesterday. 'Sign spinners' were cool for a while, but have lost their novelty. Now I just see men holding signs that advertise local businesses. Written on a green sign: "Doctor and Marijuana $60."
    "May you live in interesting times."
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    Will any of you anti-regulation folks address even some of these and tell us why you feel that way? Please.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Without getting in to every single one of these and my own personal beliefs of which are necessary and which aren't, a good deal of the regulations below make sense when they are determined locally-- which also includes choosing to not adopt them at all.

    Glancing at the list, I am against insurance requirements of any sort. Insurance companies only wield the power that they do because they've weasled their way into law. That's where "regulations" start to rob people, and ultimately provide a system where people feel that they are acting justly in taking advantage of a system that's also actively exploitative by using the strong arm of the law. The problem is that undoing this mess that has been created can only be done with a complete collapse of the system. Adding more government and rules requiring insurance only strengthens the insurance cartel, not weakens it. Apply this same logic to oil subsidies, supporting bad American car companies, big pharma, etc... If given the opportunity, the market WILL select businesses that make the most sense-- the cleanest, the greenest, the cheapest, and the best will win in the end as long as the bad businesses are not supported through coercion.

    Also generally speaking, if there is an age, be it 21, 18, or 13 where someone is a minor and incapable of making "adult" decisions, laws should protect them. So I would agree with car seat requirements on my good faith estimate that they actually make sense, and that there's no better or equivalent product out there. I honestly know nothing about them. I don't see why a concerned parent shouldn't be able to come up with their own solution either, if it's equal. Seat belts for adults on the other hand, I don't think should be a requirement.

    The more locally things are run, the bigger the pool to choose from in terms of how society can operate best through different combinations of laws. Ideally, eliminating a lot of the laws in place eliminates the moral hazzard that they create. Laws against Marijuana, but not against alcohol, give many people a false sense of security that alcohol, because of it's legal status over pot makes it seem safer than pot. After all-- it's regulated, right? I think differently. During prohibition, not only was alcohol as dangerous to consume as it is now, it was also dangerous to obtain. Without prohibition, we would not have had the Al Capones of the world.

    I would like to address your whole list sometime soon.

    I'd like to say that laws that protect people's lives and property are most important, and can usually be handled with some basic laws against murder, theft, and fraud.



    scb wrote:
    There have been many conversations lately about government infringement (or lack thereof) upon the rights of individuals through health and safety regulation. My belief is that these issues are not black and white, and that judgments must be made, taking costs and benefits into consideration. But some people seem to believe that things are more clear cut, and that some regulations are OBVIOUSLY an infringement upon people's rights and should not be enacted. I am genuinely confused about what people think are reasonable versus unreasonable regulations. So I would like to know what all of you thing about these:

    1. Car seat requirements
    2. Seat belt requirements for adults
    3. Seat belt requirements for children
    4. Speed limits
    5. Stop signs and traffic lights
    6. Driver's license requirements
    7. Car insurance requirements
    8. Health insurance requirements
    9. Medical license requirements
    10. Healthcare regulations (sterilization of instruments, etc.)
    11. Spa regulations (sterilization of instruments, etc.)
    12. Fish pedicure bans
    13. Tattoo regulations (sterilization of instruments, etc.)
    14. Tattoo age requirements
    15. Smoking age requirements
    16. Drinking age requirements
    17. Marijuana bans
    18. Heroin bans
    19. Mandatory education
    20. Child labor laws
    21. Childcare facility regulations
    22. Child neglect laws and the ways in which they are implemented
    23. Child abuse laws and the ways in which they are implemented
    24. Laws regulating the sexual activity of minors
    25. Laws regulating the sexual activity of adults
    26. Prostitution bans
    27. Requirements that prostitutes wear condoms (where prostitution is legal)
    28. Strip club regulations
    29. Regulations in strip clubs that serve food
    30. Laws requiring you to spay/neuter your pets
    31. Laws forbidding abuse of pets
    32. Laws forbidding cockfighting and dog fights
    33. ADA laws
    34. Laws requiring stairs to be a certain height
    35. Child pornography laws
    36. Laws regulating the disposal of human remains
    37. Workplace safety laws
    38. Laws requiring the availability of nutritional information for food
    39. Taxpayer-funded sidewalks
    40. Taxpayer-funded bicycle lanes
    41. Laws requiring car manufacturers to provide seat belts in all vehicles
    42. Laws requiring car manufacturers to provide air bags in all vehicles
    43. Laws that prohibit smoking on airplanes.
    44. Laws that prohibit smoking indoors in bars
    45. Laws that prohibit smoking indoors in hospitals
    46. Seat belt requirements on airplanes
    47. Being made to put your seat back in it's upright position, put your tray tables up, and stow away all carry-ons under the seat in front of you during take-off and landing on airplanes
    48. Laws forbidding train drivers from texting
    49. Laws forbidding car drivers from texting
    50. Regulations about what food can be served at schools

    Okay, those are just the first ones I thought of. Please list others, too, if you's like.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    Thanks, Vinny, for your thoughtful post!

    My opinion on insurance is that I think it's a racket, but I'm torn. I think everyone should have healthcare coverage, but I don't think it should be through private, for-profit companies. That's one reason I support single-payer. But, given the lack of a public option in the new healthcare bill, I can understand why people would be made to have coverage. Same with car insurance. People are made to have coverage to protect the victims of accidents, so they're not SOL if they're hit by someone who can't afford to pay for damages. I sure don't want to be hit by someone without car insurance! So I feel like this law is there to protect me as a potential accident victim. On the other hand, since insurance companies are a racket, I don't want to be their victim either. And the kicker is, if everyone had healthcare coverage, car insurance would be a lot less necessary. But I have no faith whatsoever in the "free market," so if we are going to be made to have insurance - or even feel compelled to purchase insurance of our own free will - I think the insurance companies should be highly regulated.

    Regarding car seats, I don't know what you mean when you say a concerned parent should be able to come up with their own solution. But here's another question for you: If we require car seats, should we also provide them (at least for those families who can't afford them)? That's a HUGE problem where I live/work.

    And regarding seat belts for adults, I'm torn. On the one hand, I think adults can make their own decisions about the extent to which they want to protect themselves. But, on the other hand, I can think of two reasons to require seat belts: 1. We, the taxpayers, really do pay more money to cover the medical costs of people who are in accidents and weren't wearing seat belts. (Another argument in support of mandatory car insurance, perhaps?) 2. If I'm in a car with you and you're not wearing a seat belt and we get into an accident, your lack of restraint in the car puts me at greater risk of injury/death. So, to a certain extent, I think it really IS a violation of the rights of others for people to not wear seat belts. So seat belt laws do protect people's lives and property/money, which you said are most important. (There's really no way to get out of violating SOMEONE'S right here.)

    Regarding drugs & alcohol, do you think there are ANY drugs that should be prohibited? And, for the drugs that should be legal, do you think they should be regulated?

    Basically my whole perspective on regulation in general is that it's just complicated. I can usually see both sides (though I may think one side has a much stronger case than the other).
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    I heard a story on NPR today that made me think of the argument that the government has no right to dictate how parents raise their children:

    Tragedy Shines Light On Plight Of Yemeni Child Brides
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126110751

    I think it just goes to show, again, that what's right and wrong and what should or shouldn't be regulated is really all relative.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    Thanks, Vinny, for your thoughtful post!

    My opinion on insurance is that I think it's a racket, but I'm torn. I think everyone should have healthcare coverage, but I don't think it should be through private, for-profit companies. That's one reason I support single-payer. But, given the lack of a public option in the new healthcare bill, I can understand why people would be made to have coverage. Same with car insurance. People are made to have coverage to protect the victims of accidents, so they're not SOL if they're hit by someone who can't afford to pay for damages. I sure don't want to be hit by someone without car insurance! So I feel like this law is there to protect me as a potential accident victim. On the other hand, since insurance companies are a racket, I don't want to be their victim either. And the kicker is, if everyone had healthcare coverage, car insurance would be a lot less necessary. But I have no faith whatsoever in the "free market," so if we are going to be made to have insurance - or even feel compelled to purchase insurance of our own free will - I think the insurance companies should be highly regulated.

    Regarding car seats, I don't know what you mean when you say a concerned parent should be able to come up with their own solution. But here's another question for you: If we require car seats, should we also provide them (at least for those families who can't afford them)? That's a HUGE problem where I live/work.

    And regarding seat belts for adults, I'm torn. On the one hand, I think adults can make their own decisions about the extent to which they want to protect themselves. But, on the other hand, I can think of two reasons to require seat belts: 1. We, the taxpayers, really do pay more money to cover the medical costs of people who are in accidents and weren't wearing seat belts. (Another argument in support of mandatory car insurance, perhaps?) 2. If I'm in a car with you and you're not wearing a seat belt and we get into an accident, your lack of restraint in the car puts me at greater risk of injury/death. So, to a certain extent, I think it really IS a violation of the rights of others for people to not wear seat belts. So seat belt laws do protect people's lives and property/money, which you said are most important. (There's really no way to get out of violating SOMEONE'S right here.)

    Regarding drugs & alcohol, do you think there are ANY drugs that should be prohibited? And, for the drugs that should be legal, do you think they should be regulated?

    Basically my whole perspective on regulation in general is that it's just complicated. I can usually see both sides (though I may think one side has a much stronger case than the other).

    Seatbelts:

    If I'm not wearing a seatbelt, and I'm not the cause of the accident (someone else is), that person is responsible for whatever damages I sustain. My not wearing a seatbelt caused no harm to anyone, and wasn't going to either. It's only after I get hit while it is someone else's mistake, that it becomes an issue. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for anyone's damages, but charities will choose to do so.

    Your argument for the driver needing a seatbelt with a passenger in the car is about the best argument I've ever heard for seatbelt laws. The second best is that the driver (or anyone in the car) is a potential projectile when not wearing a belt. Again, I think it should be up to cities and towns to figure this out for themselves. I'm still not big on this law for how rare these circumstances that we just described actually occur, and I also think that someone harmed in the passenger seat for a driver's mistake of not willing to wear a seatbelt has grounds to sue for negligence, if it can be proven. No seatbelt law required, but justice is still served.

    No drug should be made illegal at a federal level-- and I personally would advocate the same at state and local levels-- but again, allow each locality to figure these things out on their own. It is up to people to educate themselves about any substance they put into their body, whether the FDA approves it or not. It's something you HAVE to do anyway, if you wish to live a longer, healthier life. If you don't, that's also your prerogative. Your family and friends should have more to do with influencing your personal behavior than a government agency, which will be inevitably co-opted by special interests, who ultimately impose their will on you by force.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    Than

    Regarding car seats, I don't know what you mean when you say a concerned parent should be able to come up with their own solution. But here's another question for you: If we require car seats, should we also provide them (at least for those families who can't afford them)? That's a HUGE problem where I live/work.

    My idea about car seats is simply that a parent should be able to provide an equal substitution for a car seat if they so choose. Whatever this contraption is, I have no idea. Some sweet harness with roll bars might suffice :D

    Do I think taxpayer dollars should pay for car seats? No. And not because I don't sympathize with the cause. Most people sympathize with the cause. It's more of a question if government is the best vehicle to deliver the solution to this problem. I don't think it is. Actually, I think people see government as a solution because of it's sheer size and power ONLY.

    So is there a moral obligation on the part of all people to help each other out? I would say that I personally feel it in myself, but I'm not going to advocate holding a gun to someone else's head who doesn't feel this way, only for the end result to be not delivered as well as it would have been if it was done charitably and voluntarily.
  • KDH12KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    a problem with your "let the town" handle their own laws is that as someone who travels a lot I would not want to know the intricacies of every law in every town

    in this world we are all too interconnected....

    if my town does not reacquire seat belts but then I drive 3 blocks down to a hardware store in the other town which requires seat belts..... should I be required to follow your laws

    a good example is towns or counties that are dry, don't you think that people drive ten minutes to get beer in the next town/county then take it home to drink it?
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    KDH12 wrote:
    a problem with your "let the town" handle their own laws is that as someone who travels a lot I would not want to know the intricacies of every law in every town

    in this world we are all too interconnected....

    if my town does not reacquire seat belts but then I drive 3 blocks down to a hardware store in the other town which requires seat belts..... should I be required to follow your laws

    a good example is towns or counties that are dry, don't you think that people drive ten minutes to get beer in the next town/county then take it home to drink it?

    That's why freedom just happens to work best almost everywhere.

    Also, if you like to drink, it's best that you don't live in a dry town.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    Seatbelts:

    If I'm not wearing a seatbelt, and I'm not the cause of the accident (someone else is), that person is responsible for whatever damages I sustain. My not wearing a seatbelt caused no harm to anyone, and wasn't going to either. It's only after I get hit while it is someone else's mistake, that it becomes an issue.

    I disagree. I think the person who hit you is responsible for the damages you would have sustained had you been wearing a seat belt, and you are responsible for the additional damages you sustained due to not wearing a seat belt. I think both people need to take responsibility for their part. The guy who wasn't wearing a seatbelt may not have been the primary cause of harm or chosen to get hit, but he did chose to put himself at greater risk, knowing an accident was a possibility.
    Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for anyone's damages, but charities will choose to do so.

    We can agree or disagree about what SHOULD happen, but do you not think it's a good argument given was DOES happen?
    Your argument for the driver needing a seatbelt with a passenger in the car is about the best argument I've ever heard for seatbelt laws. The second best is that the driver (or anyone in the car) is a potential projectile when not wearing a belt. Again, I think it should be up to cities and towns to figure this out for themselves. I'm still not big on this law for how rare these circumstances that we just described actually occur, and I also think that someone harmed in the passenger seat for a driver's mistake of not willing to wear a seatbelt has grounds to sue for negligence, if it can be proven. No seatbelt law required, but justice is still served.

    Yeah, the projectile scenario is pretty much what I had in mind - for drivers or passengers. I really don't think this is extremely rare, though, and I think it would be common if not for seat belt laws. While I agree that whoever in the car is hit by the flying seatbeltless dude should be able to sue, I hardly think the ability to sue means justice is served and therefor no law is required. The idea of regulation is to keep innocent people from getting hurt or killed in the first place. Being able to sue will hardly make up for the loss of a life.
    No drug should be made illegal at a federal level-- and I personally would advocate the same at state and local levels-- but again, allow each locality to figure these things out on their own. It is up to people to educate themselves about any substance they put into their body, whether the FDA approves it or not. It's something you HAVE to do anyway, if you wish to live a longer, healthier life. If you don't, that's also your prerogative. Your family and friends should have more to do with influencing your personal behavior than a government agency, which will be inevitably co-opted by special interests, who ultimately impose their will on you by force.

    But what do you say about regulation of legal drugs?
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    scb wrote:
    Than

    Regarding car seats, I don't know what you mean when you say a concerned parent should be able to come up with their own solution. But here's another question for you: If we require car seats, should we also provide them (at least for those families who can't afford them)? That's a HUGE problem where I live/work.

    My idea about car seats is simply that a parent should be able to provide an equal substitution for a car seat if they so choose. Whatever this contraption is, I have no idea. Some sweet harness with roll bars might suffice :D

    Do I think taxpayer dollars should pay for car seats? No. And not because I don't sympathize with the cause. Most people sympathize with the cause. It's more of a question if government is the best vehicle to deliver the solution to this problem. I don't think it is. Actually, I think people see government as a solution because of it's sheer size and power ONLY.

    So is there a moral obligation on the part of all people to help each other out? I would say that I personally feel it in myself, but I'm not going to advocate holding a gun to someone else's head who doesn't feel this way, only for the end result to be not delivered as well as it would have been if it was done charitably and voluntarily.

    Okay, so let me add another dimension to this problem - one of taxpayer self-interest rather than moral obligation: There are many times, at the state hospital where I work, when our labor and delivery unit has to turn laboring women away because we are full. The #1 reason we are full is because we can't allow babies to go home without a car seat. We've already determined in this conversation that the state should protect babies by requiring car seats (or some other such as-yet-non-existent device that would probably be too costly for some as well). I would argue that, in the long run, it would save us (the taxpayer) money and protect the health of the other patients if we could get car seats to these parents and discharge them. So, in this case, should we provide car seats?
  • KDH12KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    you know I am real tired of the argument of

    regulation=less freedom

    even with laws or regulation there is still free will, I only wear my seat belt about 60% of the time and that is my choice

    you still have the freedom of choice however there might be consequences, either a ticket from a police officer or your head going through the windshield.... make your choice and live your life


    I feel this loss of freedom thing is a taking point

    some could argue that under Bush, the deregulation king, we had less freedoms.. remember he was the one the gave telecom companies immunity for allowing the government to spy on our emails and text messages
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    scb wrote:
    Than

    Regarding car seats, I don't know what you mean when you say a concerned parent should be able to come up with their own solution. But here's another question for you: If we require car seats, should we also provide them (at least for those families who can't afford them)? That's a HUGE problem where I live/work.

    My idea about car seats is simply that a parent should be able to provide an equal substitution for a car seat if they so choose. Whatever this contraption is, I have no idea. Some sweet harness with roll bars might suffice :D

    Do I think taxpayer dollars should pay for car seats? No. And not because I don't sympathize with the cause. Most people sympathize with the cause. It's more of a question if government is the best vehicle to deliver the solution to this problem. I don't think it is. Actually, I think people see government as a solution because of it's sheer size and power ONLY.

    So is there a moral obligation on the part of all people to help each other out? I would say that I personally feel it in myself, but I'm not going to advocate holding a gun to someone else's head who doesn't feel this way, only for the end result to be not delivered as well as it would have been if it was done charitably and voluntarily.

    Okay, so let me add another dimension to this problem - one of taxpayer self-interest rather than moral obligation: There are many times, at the state hospital where I work, when our labor and delivery unit has to turn laboring women away because we are full. The #1 reason we are full is because we can't allow babies to go home without a car seat. We've already determined in this conversation that the state should protect babies by requiring car seats (or some other such as-yet-non-existent device that would probably be too costly for some as well). I would argue that, in the long run, it would save us (the taxpayer) money and protect the health of the other patients if we could get car seats to these parents and discharge them. So, in this case, should we provide car seats?

    Simply put, not having a car seat demonstrates a pretty large lack of foresight after a 9 month pregnancy.
  • KDH12KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    I think you forget that you live in a country where 2/3 of the population is not as smart as you... or should I say us ;)


    you can not hold everyone to your own standards or expectations
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    KDH12 wrote:
    I think you forget that you live in a country where 2/3 of the population is not as smart as you... or should I say us ;)


    you can not hold everyone to your own standards or expectations

    You see, that's EXACTLY the problem. Allow people to think, and they will have to think. Thinking has just about been criminalized in this country, or at least HIGHLY discouraged. Giving away a car seat isn't exactly going to teach those parents to put the bottle in the baby's mouth, and not its ear either. Seriously, if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, what would YOU do? Call someone up and get some money Western Union? Beg a little? Maybe hit up the ATM assuming you might have been socking away what you could to prepare for your bundle of joy to enter the world?
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    KDH12 wrote:
    you know I am real tired of the argument of

    regulation=less freedom

    even with laws or regulation there is still free will, I only wear my seat belt about 60% of the time and that is my choice

    you still have the freedom of choice however there might be consequences, either a ticket from a police officer or your head going through the windshield.... make your choice and live your life


    I feel this loss of freedom thing is a taking point

    some could argue that under Bush, the deregulation king, we had less freedoms.. remember he was the one the gave telecom companies immunity for allowing the government to spy on our emails and text messages

    whilst driving i wear a seatbelt(when i do) not for safety reasons but cause if the cops pull me over im gone.

    when im a passenger(an extremly rare occurrence) i wear a seatbelt not for safety reasons but so as not to disadvantage the driver due to lost points and fines attributed to them.

    oh and i never wear a seatbelt if its provided in a coach or bus.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    scb wrote:
    Okay, so let me add another dimension to this problem - one of taxpayer self-interest rather than moral obligation: There are many times, at the state hospital where I work, when our labor and delivery unit has to turn laboring women away because we are full. The #1 reason we are full is because we can't allow babies to go home without a car seat. We've already determined in this conversation that the state should protect babies by requiring car seats (or some other such as-yet-non-existent device that would probably be too costly for some as well). I would argue that, in the long run, it would save us (the taxpayer) money and protect the health of the other patients if we could get car seats to these parents and discharge them. So, in this case, should we provide car seats?

    Simply put, not having a car seat demonstrates a pretty large lack of foresight after a 9 month pregnancy.

    Aside from the problem I have with your judgment/stereotype of people with poverty levels that are incomprehensible to most Americans, you didn't answer my question.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    You see, that's EXACTLY the problem. Allow people to think, and they will have to think. Thinking has just about been criminalized in this country, or at least HIGHLY discouraged. Giving away a car seat isn't exactly going to teach those parents to put the bottle in the baby's mouth, and not its ear either. Seriously, if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, what would YOU do? Call someone up and get some money Western Union? Beg a little? Maybe hit up the ATM assuming you might have been socking away what you could to prepare for your bundle of joy to enter the world?

    The idea that people without resources just need to be taught to think is offensive. As for what you would do if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, people do find a way (it's not like they live at the hospital 'til their kid's too old to need a car seat) - it's just that it takes longer and in the meantime we have to turn patients away. For the record, not having a (safe) ride home is the number one reason discharges are delayed hospital-wide, not just on the maternity wards.
  • KDH12KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    KDH12 wrote:
    I think you forget that you live in a country where 2/3 of the population is not as smart as you... or should I say us ;)


    you can not hold everyone to your own standards or expectations

    You see, that's EXACTLY the problem. Allow people to think, and they will have to think. Thinking has just about been criminalized in this country, or at least HIGHLY discouraged. Giving away a car seat isn't exactly going to teach those parents to put the bottle in the baby's mouth, and not its ear either. Seriously, if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, what would YOU do? Call someone up and get some money Western Union? Beg a little? Maybe hit up the ATM assuming you might have been socking away what you could to prepare for your bundle of joy to enter the world?


    incorrect it is not about thinking, it is about knowledge and education

    I say give them the car seat then refer them to a parenting class which will teach them the difference between the ear and the mouth.

    I can not compare what I would do what they should do, since we have a difference in means
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    scb wrote:
    Okay, so let me add another dimension to this problem - one of taxpayer self-interest rather than moral obligation: There are many times, at the state hospital where I work, when our labor and delivery unit has to turn laboring women away because we are full. The #1 reason we are full is because we can't allow babies to go home without a car seat. We've already determined in this conversation that the state should protect babies by requiring car seats (or some other such as-yet-non-existent device that would probably be too costly for some as well). I would argue that, in the long run, it would save us (the taxpayer) money and protect the health of the other patients if we could get car seats to these parents and discharge them. So, in this case, should we provide car seats?

    Simply put, not having a car seat demonstrates a pretty large lack of foresight after a 9 month pregnancy.

    Aside from the problem I have with your judgment/stereotype of people with poverty levels that are incomprehensible to most Americans, you didn't answer my question.

    I thought I did, honestly. To clarify: No, I don't believe it's the taxpayer's responsibility. I believe that if this problem is as big as you say it is, that it would be better if someone stepped up and started an organization to provide for this cause directly, and fundraise. What about seeking help from a nearby church?

    I didn't judge anyone, and I live in one of New York's poorest cities. I'm sure I witness exactly what you're talking about every day without quite being on the front lines like you are. I don't feel that the best way to break the cycle of poverty is to always give things away at the taxpayer's expense.
  • KDH12KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    In Illinois I believe that medicaid provides a car seat to those in need
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    KDH12 wrote:
    KDH12 wrote:
    I think you forget that you live in a country where 2/3 of the population is not as smart as you... or should I say us ;)


    you can not hold everyone to your own standards or expectations

    You see, that's EXACTLY the problem. Allow people to think, and they will have to think. Thinking has just about been criminalized in this country, or at least HIGHLY discouraged. Giving away a car seat isn't exactly going to teach those parents to put the bottle in the baby's mouth, and not its ear either. Seriously, if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, what would YOU do? Call someone up and get some money Western Union? Beg a little? Maybe hit up the ATM assuming you might have been socking away what you could to prepare for your bundle of joy to enter the world?


    incorrect it is not about thinking, it is about knowledge and education

    I say give them the car seat then refer them to a parenting class which will teach them the difference between the ear and the mouth.

    I can not compare what I would do what they should do, since we have a difference in means

    Let's see where knowledge and education takes you without the ability to think.

    Again, I'm all for giving the car seat. I'll donate a car seat tomorrow to the hospital down the street in honor of this thread. However, the rest of the city / state / country shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else's car seat when putting away 50 cents per day over the duration of the pregnancy would probably cover it.
  • KDH12KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    your over simplifying

    not to mention that you keep bringing up thinking which is an abstract brain function

    we all are thinking all the time, even while we sleep

    your are confusing thinking with education and decision making
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    You see, that's EXACTLY the problem. Allow people to think, and they will have to think. Thinking has just about been criminalized in this country, or at least HIGHLY discouraged. Giving away a car seat isn't exactly going to teach those parents to put the bottle in the baby's mouth, and not its ear either. Seriously, if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, what would YOU do? Call someone up and get some money Western Union? Beg a little? Maybe hit up the ATM assuming you might have been socking away what you could to prepare for your bundle of joy to enter the world?

    The idea that people without resources just need to be taught to think is offensive. As for what you would do if the hospital wasn't going to allow you to take your baby home, people do find a way (it's not like they live at the hospital 'til their kid's too old to need a car seat) - it's just that it takes longer and in the meantime we have to turn patients away. For the record, not having a (safe) ride home is the number one reason discharges are delayed hospital-wide, not just on the maternity wards.

    Nowhere did I even say that people need to be taught to think. Thinking occurs naturally. It simply blows my mind that at some point, it doesn't to occur to someone that they have to take their baby home from the hospital, and that there's probably a best way to do it-- especially if money IS the issue. We all know that money problems DO NOT happen overnight, unless you've got a severe gambling problem.

    I could never find myself in that situation. I just couldn't. So what does that make me? Even if I some how was in that every situation, give me a phone and an hour and I believe I would have it solved.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    KDH12 wrote:
    I say give them the car seat then refer them to a parenting class which will teach them the difference between the ear and the mouth.
    KDH12 wrote:
    In Illinois I believe that medicaid provides a car seat to those in need

    But does it pay for parenting classes? ;)
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    edited April 2010
    I could never find myself in that situation. I just couldn't. So what does that make me?

    Privileged. ;)
    Even if I some how was in that every situation, give me a phone and an hour and I believe I would have it solved.
    I'll donate a car seat tomorrow to the hospital down the street in honor of this thread.

    Okay, then, I challenge you to do it! Tomorrow, without spending any money, without borrowing money or a car seat from friends or family, and without doing anything illegal - and maybe we should also say without a car - obtain a car seat within an hour. (We really should also have you assume that you're 73 hours post-cesarean and have no support from a partner or family.) Then donate the car seat to a local hospital (preferably one that serves a resource-limited population). :D

    Edit to add: I forgot to mention that you live in a rural part of the state, 150 miles away.
    Post edited by _ on
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    KDH12 wrote:
    I say give them the car seat then refer them to a parenting class which will teach them the difference between the ear and the mouth.
    KDH12 wrote:
    In Illinois I believe that medicaid provides a car seat to those in need

    But does it pay for parenting classes? ;)

    I think your comment is in jest here, but it does raise a good point. The line does need to be drawn somewhere, no?
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    scb wrote:
    Edit to add: I forgot to mention that you live in a rural part of the state, 150 miles away.

    150 miles from where? NYC? Try 60. Also, come to Newburgh and use the world "rural," see if anyone knows what you're talking about.
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