9/11 an Act of War

South of Seattle

Just wondering what the general consensus is amongst us.

Was 9/11 an act of war? Or was it just a well thought out attack by a terrorist group?

I often get into discussions with people who try to compare 9/11 with Pearl Harbor and other horrific attacks on the U.S.A. and/or it's property.

I myself don't consider it an act of war. I think we just had a group of terrorists that got in a lucky shot. I consider war a little more substantial than 3 planes being hijacked on a 1 day.

CaPJam

9/11 was a well planned excuse for us to go to invade the middle east for global control. Without oil society would implode. I would not say it was an Act of War, I believe it was the first step of many more to come to gain global order and world domination.

TriumphantAngel

not an ''Act of War"

there's a difference between an "Act of War" and an "Act of Terrorism". war is waged by a Government, terrorism is waged by groups or individuals not directly responsible to a Government.

rebornFixer

An act of terrorism, for the reason Triumphant explained.
It was not any sort of conspiracy (I believe), but it has since been used as an excuse for wars.

JC29856

TriumphantAngel wrote:

not an ''Act of War"

there's a difference between an "Act of War" and an "Act of Terrorism". war is waged by a Government, terrorism is waged by groups or individuals not directly responsible to a Government.

how would you apply this to hamas? just curios...

Godfather.

having a 16 year old son and even hearing the word war scares me but the 9/11 attack was a act of war in my opinion because these people had backing and $$$ support I would guess, I have a friend in NY that was right there and lost many friends and co-workers and he and I have talked about it, hearing his story brought tears to my eyes as he told me about it, bottom line they attacked American's on American soil.

Godfather.

p.s yea yea I know I'm a "redneck american" so sue me.

Flagg

I consider an act of war since Bin Laden actually issued a declaration on war against the US upon the founding of Al Qaeda.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/i ... _1996.html

By his definition it was. But I guess it is tricky seeing as how he is not a formal government. But in his mind, it is a war.

Godfather.

TriumphantAngel wrote:

not an ''Act of War"

there's a difference between an "Act of War" and an "Act of Terrorism". war is waged by a Government, terrorism is waged by groups or individuals not directly responsible to a Government.

sounds like a great way to justify a mass killing. :roll:

Godfather.

Starfall

War? Of course not. What nation attacked us on 9/11? Those responsible weren't acting at the behest of a foreign government. They were fanatical terrorists, like the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhof) and Timothy McVeigh. They weren't even real military.

This wasn't war. This was a heinous, barbaric criminal act, and as such, those responsible should be brought to justice, and by our civilian justice system.

Not by invading other sovereign nations, let alone those that had nothing to do with the attacks.

Drowned Out

Flagg wrote:

I consider an act of war since Bin Laden actually issued a declaration on war against the US upon the founding of Al Qaeda.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/i ... _1996.html

By his definition it was. But I guess it is tricky seeing as how he is not a formal government. But in his mind, it is a war.

Al Qaeda was founded in 96?
Some interesting info here:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... qaeda.html



"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ." -- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook

Cosmo

Hard to say...
Was it more similar to Pearl Harbor... or Oklahoma City?

rebornFixer

Drowned Out wrote:

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ." -- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook

Come on, though ... Fundamentalist groups do exist, its not like this shit is completely made up. Whether there's a unified group that calls itself Al Qaida that has regular meetings and shit is perhaps up for debate. The reality is that Islamic terrorism is probably best characterized as a bunch of fringe groups that talk to each other to a limited exist, at best. The same applies to other forms of terrorism as well.

Drowned Out

rebornFixer wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ." -- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook

Come on, though ... Fundamentalist groups do exist, its not like this shit is completely made up. Whether there's a unified group that calls itself Al Qaida that has regular meetings and shit is perhaps up for debate. The reality is that Islamic terrorism is probably best characterized as a bunch of fringe groups that talk to each other to a limited exist, at best. The same applies to other forms of terrorism as well.

This is important tho....some random, unorganized, non-unified group called Al Qaeda is not what we're beign sold. we are consistently warned about secret messages in Bin Laden videos, or told that random car/suicide bombings, IED's etc, were Al Qaeda-plotted attacks. Every time the 'bad guys' strike at a western interests, the words 'ties to Al Qaeda' are used in every news reports....
I don't doubt that there are some groups of people that have loose affilitations, it's the inference that there is some kind of global cabal, with Satan incarnate calling the shots from the mountains of pakistan that bothers me. It's all glorified and blown out of proportion as a means to an end. I suppose it's up for debate whether that 'end' is better tv ratings, or pretext to war....depends how deeply you feel the war machine is tied to the media, I suppose....just pointing out that, in many instances, these events have roots in Western intelligence.

South of Seattle

Cosmo wrote:

Hard to say...
Was it more similar to Pearl Harbor... or Oklahoma City?

That's kinda what I was thinking when making this thread. Some people were comparing it to Pearl Harbor, but PH was an Attack by the Army of another Country. Where as OKC, USS Cole, 9/11 were not.

MK1980

Whether al Quida is a singular entity controlled by one man (Ladin) or a loose networks of cells, is in my opinion irrelevent. Today in the British press it has been reported that Bin Ladin has said, 'if K. S. Mohammed is executed by the court he is on trail by...there will be consequences'. What happened on that day is our generations 'JFK moment' This is more than oil/land politics. It is a hot war and a propoganda war. I support our troops, and wish them safety and success. All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to stay silent & do nothing. Admitidly in both our countries and other NATO ones we have and will contiunue to have a very strong need for mental health services to supported and funded well, for years to come because of Iraq/Afganistan. 9/11 was an act of war...as a previous post described. It was not home grown, it was supported by the goverment of Afganistan at the time (Taliban) and everything that has proceded from it will shape our future. To end on a positve note, think of the leaps and bounds womens freedom has come in both countries.

Drowned Out

MK1980 wrote:

Whether al Quida is a singular entity controlled by one man (Ladin) or a loose networks of cells, is in my opinion irrelevent. Today in the British press it has been reported that Bin Ladin has said, 'if K. S. Mohammed is executed by the court he is on trail by...there will be consequences'. What happened on that day is our generations 'JFK moment' This is more than oil/land politics. It is a hot war and a propoganda war. I support our troops, and wish them safety and success. All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to stay silent & do nothing. Admitidly in both our countries and other NATO ones we have and will contiunue to have a very strong need for mental health services to supported and funded well, for years to come because of Iraq/Afganistan. 9/11 was an act of war...as a previous post described. It was not home grown, it was supported by the goverment of Afganistan at the time (Taliban) and everything that has proceded from it will shape our future. To end on a positve note, think of the leaps and bounds womens freedom has come in both countries.

It is relevant. The media portrays Al Qaeda as an international organization with a definable structure which we can dismantle – this gives the wars a somewhat finite (albeit vague) goal. How do you wage war against a loose network of cells? Do you continue to invade and occupy any country you find one in? Do you use drones over any sovereign land you choose?
I find it odd that you call this a ‘propaganda war’, then rattle off all of the typical government disinformation regarding the wars, including the ol’ "support our troops" mantra.
Are you saying 9/11 was supported by the Taliban? How so? There are no Taliban / 911 ties. Is it because they allowed Bin Laden to stay there? He was a war hero to them. You do know that they offered to turn him over if the US could provide any evidence of his involvement, right? He is not even listed on the FBI's most wanted list, because they have NO evidence against him. You also know that he spent months denying involvement before his highly dubious confession tape aired? And that OBL was a CIA asset, trained by the US….and according to Sibel Edmonds, remained an asset until 9/11....right?
If you want to trace 9/11 money, look to Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. Also, the Taliban are former US allies, as was Saddam, no? Something to consider when supporting regime change….

Godfather.

Drowned Out wrote:

MK1980 wrote:

Whether al Quida is a singular entity controlled by one man (Ladin) or a loose networks of cells, is in my opinion irrelevent. Today in the British press it has been reported that Bin Ladin has said, 'if K. S. Mohammed is executed by the court he is on trail by...there will be consequences'. What happened on that day is our generations 'JFK moment' This is more than oil/land politics. It is a hot war and a propoganda war. I support our troops, and wish them safety and success. All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to stay silent & do nothing. Admitidly in both our countries and other NATO ones we have and will contiunue to have a very strong need for mental health services to supported and funded well, for years to come because of Iraq/Afganistan. 9/11 was an act of war...as a previous post described. It was not home grown, it was supported by the goverment of Afganistan at the time (Taliban) and everything that has proceded from it will shape our future. To end on a positve note, think of the leaps and bounds womens freedom has come in both countries.

It is relevant. The media portrays Al Qaeda as an international organization with a definable structure which we can dismantle – this gives the wars a somewhat finite (albeit vague) goal. How do you wage war against a loose network of cells? Do you continue to invade and occupy any country you find one in? Do you use drones over any sovereign land you choose?


I find it odd that you call this a ‘propaganda war’, then rattle off all of the typical government disinformation regarding the wars, including the ol’ "support our troops" mantra.
Are you saying 9/11 was supported by the Taliban? How so? There are no Taliban / 911 ties. Is it because they allowed Bin Laden to stay there? He was a war hero to them. You do know that they offered to turn him over if the US could provide any evidence of his involvement, right? He is not even listed on the FBI's most wanted list, because they have NO evidence against him. You also know that he spent months denying involvement before his highly dubious confession tape aired? And that OBL was a CIA asset, trained by the US….and according to Sibel Edmonds, remained an asset until 9/11....right?
If you want to trace 9/11 money, look to Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. Also, the Taliban are former US allies, as was Saddam, no? Something to consider when supporting regime change….

Do you continue to invade and occupy any country you find one in?

during WWII if our troops (my grandpa and uncle included) did not kick the shit out of Germany I wonder what Hitler would have done to the remaining Jew's or the rest of the world for that matter, I'm not trying to piss in the punch here but retaliation is a bitch and war is messy, world peace is a long way off brother,we can't lay down and take a kick in the nuts because if we did sooner or later everybody would be kicking us in the nuts.
well just my thought on it anyway.

Godfather.

Drowned Out

Godfather. wrote:

during WWII if our troops (my grandpa and uncle included) did not kick the shit out of Germany I wonder what Hitler would have done to the remaining Jew's or the rest of the world for that matter, I'm not trying to piss in the punch here but retaliation is a bitch and war is messy, world peace is a long way off brother,we can't lay down and take a kick in the nuts because if we did sooner or later everybody would be kicking us in the nuts.
well just my thought on it anyway.

Godfather.

Thank you for validating the one point I forgot to make: these wars, from a public opinion standpoint, are about revenge (edit: BEGAN as revenge). Absolutely misguided revenge. Did you not read the post you quoted? We went after the wrong people if revenge was our motivation... An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind….And sorry...this is NOTHING like WWII....going into another country to REMOVE an occupying force is a little different from occupying an entire country in an attempt to rid it of a handful of men.

aerial

Drowned Out wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

during WWII if our troops (my grandpa and uncle included) did not kick the shit out of Germany I wonder what Hitler would have done to the remaining Jew's or the rest of the world for that matter, I'm not trying to piss in the punch here but retaliation is a bitch and war is messy, world peace is a long way off brother,we can't lay down and take a kick in the nuts because if we did sooner or later everybody would be kicking us in the nuts.
well just my thought on it anyway.

Godfather.

Thank you for validating the one point I forgot to make: these wars, from a public opinion standpoint, are about revenge (edit: BEGAN as revenge). Absolutely misguided revenge. Did you not read the post you quoted? We went after the wrong people if revenge was our motivation... An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind….And sorry...this is NOTHING like WWII....going into another country to REMOVE an occupying force is a little different from occupying an entire country in an attempt to rid it of a handful of men.

Reading these post and seeing so many against going after the people that killed thousands of INNOCENT people. I am wondering, if it was in your hands, how do you feel it should have been handled?

Godfather.

Reading these post and seeing so many against going after the people that killed thousands of INNOCENT people. I am wondering, if it was in your hands, how do you feel it should have been handled?

Special op's..... kill em all .

Godfather.

Drowned Out

aerial wrote:

Reading these post and seeing so many against going after the people that killed thousands of INNOCENT people. I am wondering, if it was in your hands, how do you feel it should have been handled?

Where did I say I didn’t think we should go after those responsible? My whole point was that we are NOT going after those responsible, as we should!
If it were up to me….I’d have done a proper investigation of 9/11 and decided my course of action from there…This was never done. The 9/11 commission was rigged and stonewalled from the outset. The course of action chosen was plotted long before the attacks even occurred.

So…In retaliation for killing thousands of innocents…. instead of looking at why it happened, what could have been done to prevent it, and a REASONABLE response that would help prevent it from happening again….it’s decided to go with one-upmanship and a continuance of the policies that began the resentment which culminated in the attacks: we decided to start two wars, which we knew would kill a relatively exponential number of innocents and destabilize the entire fucking region to our own detriment. Rinse, wash, repeat. I hope no one is too surprised when we pass “GO” again…

South of Seattle

Godfather. wrote:

Reading these post and seeing so many against going after the people that killed thousands of INNOCENT people. I am wondering, if it was in your hands, how do you feel it should have been handled?

Special op's..... kill em all .

Godfather.

Actually I think a tactic like that would have been the logical way to go. I mean as long as you can find someone, they can be eliminated.

unsung

Drowned Out wrote:

He is not even listed on the FBI's most wanted list, because they have NO evidence against him.

He isn't? Then who is this?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Drowned Out

unsung wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

He is not even listed on the FBI's most wanted list, because they have NO evidence against him.

He isn't? Then who is this?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

I stand corrected. The 'if you have information concerning this man' part actually struck me as funny...
can't believe everything I read on the interwebs.... guessing he was a late addition, cause I've read that repeatedly over the years.

MK1980

Has anyone read James Ellroys 'Underworld USA' trilogy? The man writes good fiction. I know about support for OBL and Saddam during the 80's...I have heard of the Contra scandal - Ollie North et al....G Bush Snr. as head of the CIA, Reagans/Thatchers cripleing of the iron curtain etc...I do not dispute the fact that since it's inception the CIA and various shady charachters have used money either from arms sales or narcotics (or united fruit shares) to fund illegitmate right of centre coups around the globe. But behind the iron curain and still behind the bamboo curtain, and other countries freedoms are severly curtailed, people in china and north korea go under attempted brainwashing daily in prison camps...women are mistreated and looked on a second class citizens all over the world...let me get something straight - I am not a muslim hater, but criminal/terrorist acts are a threat to public saftey...even when you cannot trust you own agents (looking back to the pre-christmas jordanian double agent who executed the CIA agents)...what can our respective governments do? Pull out? and leave a vacum where chaos would reign. Comparisons with WW II are unrealistic, imagine if we had had the media coverage we have now back then...everything instantly known...in the end greece fell, rome fell, and the british empire was disbanded. Hands up who would like sharia law imposed in USA/UK? Being stoned for adultery or belonging to another faith. Thank God we live in a relativly free society. And the taliban controlled 9/11 afganistan, funded (through heroin) terrorism, and believe it or not there are people out there who would like to see the US, europe and isreal wipped off the map

timc

check this out when you have time http://www.ae911truth.org/ppt_web/ppt_selection.php
http://www.ae911truth.org/

VINNY GOOMBA

Drowned Out wrote:

unsung wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

He is not even listed on the FBI's most wanted list, because they have NO evidence against him.

He isn't? Then who is this?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

I stand corrected. The 'if you have information concerning this man' part actually struck me as funny...
can't believe everything I read on the interwebs.... guessing he was a late addition, cause I've read that repeatedly over the years.

You're both right in this. He is on the list, but he IS NOT listed for his involvement in the 9/11 attacks because of lack of evidence linking him to it.

TriumphantAngel

JC29856 wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

not an ''Act of War"

there's a difference between an "Act of War" and an "Act of Terrorism". war is waged by a Government, terrorism is waged by groups or individuals not directly responsible to a Government.

how would you apply this to hamas? just curios...

well as with everything, it is a general rule and there are exceptions. the same way the American and Israeli governments are involved in terrorism. the major difference is that war is organised violent conflict, while terrorism by definition is more random.. perhaps to achieve similar goals, just different techniques.