Is The U.S. Incapable Of Standing Up To Israel?

Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
edited March 2010 in A Moving Train
don't compete; coexist

what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Nothingman54Nothingman54 Posts: 2,251
    yawn
    I'll be back
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    thanks for contributing
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Just watched the link. Thanks for posting.

    Some very positive developments taking place.

    The talking heads on CNN make some good points. This isn't just about Israel and Palestine. This is about the U.S and the lives of U.S soldiers. This, and seeing such people as Stephen Walt given air-time on CNN makes you wonder if the tide has finally changed against Israel toward a peaceful settlement.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    n505823533_1175271_4560.jpg
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    i would say so ... not a few days after clinton and biden made some public criticisms did they tone down their rhetoric reinforcing their support of israel's right to defend themselves ...

    anyhoo - obama has made another similar threat as before ... let's see if he will do anything as i don't see netanyahu dissolving his gov't ...
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    polaris_x wrote:
    i would say so ... not a few days after clinton and biden made some public criticisms did they tone down their rhetoric reinforcing their support of israel's right to defend themselves ...

    Yes and no. I'd have liked to see Biden keep drawing a hard line instead of backtracking a bit, but at the same time, the US can pressure Israel while still acting as an ally. They are not going to tone down the right to defense rhetoric all that much because 1) Israel DOES have a right to self-defense, and 2) the Israelis are going to more be cooperative if they perceive that the US still has their backs, on some level. The problem with statements about Israel's right to defend itself is that these statements, made in isolation, fail to acknowledge the oppression that the Palestinians suffer and they (erroneously) lead some people to view events like the 2006 massacre in Gaza as legitimate self-defense. I'd like to see Biden/Clinton say something like "Israel has a right to defend itself. It does NOT have a right to massacre civilians and to disregard a people's basic human rights".
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    I'd like to see Biden/Clinton say something like "Israel has a right to defend itself. It does NOT have a right to massacre civilians and to disregard a people's basic human rights".

    guaranteed that won't happen ... Israel does not tolerate a public dress down ... hence the backtracking by clinton/biden ... the Anti-Defamation League exudes considerable influence in the US ...
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Hahahah, are you guys serious? Come on, we're talking about Israel here...the us is israels puppet. Nothings going to change. Trust me on this. Biden already backtracking, Clinton double talking. We give Israel how much money each year that they DNT have to pay back??? Miltary aide??? Know who controls who. It's really not that hard....aipac IS DC and DC knows that....
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    badbrains wrote:
    Hahahah, are you guys serious? Come on, we're talking about Israel here...the us is israels puppet. Nothings going to change. Trust me on this. Biden already backtracking, Clinton double talking. We give Israel how much money each year that they DNT have to pay back??? Miltary aide??? Know who controls who. It's really not that hard....aipac IS DC and DC knows that....

    I am deadly serious about what I think the US should do. I also share some of polaris' cynicism about the ability of US politicians to take a stand, though.
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    polaris_x wrote:
    i would say so ... not a few days after clinton and biden made some public criticisms did they tone down their rhetoric reinforcing their support of israel's right to defend themselves ...

    Yes and no. I'd have liked to see Biden keep drawing a hard line instead of backtracking a bit, but at the same time, the US can pressure Israel while still acting as an ally. They are not going to tone down the right to defense rhetoric all that much because 1) Israel DOES have a right to self-defense, and 2) the Israelis are going to more be cooperative if they perceive that the US still has their backs, on some level. The problem with statements about Israel's right to defend itself is that these statements, made in isolation, fail to acknowledge the oppression that the Palestinians suffer and they (erroneously) lead some people to view events like the 2006 massacre in Gaza as legitimate self-defense. I'd like to see Biden/Clinton say something like "Israel has a right to defend itself. It does NOT have a right to massacre civilians and to disregard a people's basic human rights".


    i think clinton is meeting with aipac in a few days, we'll see how hard a line she draws there with those right wing looneys
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    badbrains wrote:
    Hahahah, are you guys serious? Come on, we're talking about Israel here...the us is israels puppet. Nothings going to change. Trust me on this. Biden already backtracking, Clinton double talking. We give Israel how much money each year that they DNT have to pay back??? Miltary aide??? Know who controls who. It's really not that hard....aipac IS DC and DC knows that....

    I am deadly serious about what I think the US should do. I also share some of polaris' cynicism about the ability of US politicians to take a stand, though.

    and I am DEAD serious too, NOTHING will get done!!! Except maybe Clinton will offer Israel MORE guranteed billions of no-payback cash!!!! Wake up
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I don't think anyone in this thread is asleep and unaware of the issues, and I think we feel the same way. More decisive US action would be nice but its unlikely.
  • alivegirlalivegirl Posts: 124
    badbrains wrote:
    Hahahah, are you guys serious? Come on, we're talking about Israel here...the us is israels puppet. Nothings going to change. Trust me on this. Biden already backtracking, Clinton double talking. We give Israel how much money each year that they DNT have to pay back??? Miltary aide??? Know who controls who. It's really not that hard....aipac IS DC and DC knows that....

    As unfortunate as it sounds, I think what badbrains says pretty much sums it all up! We've all had our hopes dashed in the past and what we have to seriously be asking here is not if the US is incapable of standing up to Israel but is israel prepared to halt all the new settlements they're in the process of building to achieve piece? The answer is most definitely not.They've come much too far to turn back and bow to the US and international pressure. The fact that the current situation has drawn much attention is obviously very positive but it may be too little too late.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    alivegirl wrote:
    badbrains wrote:
    Hahahah, are you guys serious? Come on, we're talking about Israel here...the us is israels puppet. Nothings going to change. Trust me on this. Biden already backtracking, Clinton double talking. We give Israel how much money each year that they DNT have to pay back??? Miltary aide??? Know who controls who. It's really not that hard....aipac IS DC and DC knows that....

    As unfortunate as it sounds, I think what badbrains says pretty much sums it all up! We've all had our hopes dashed in the past and what we have to seriously be asking here is not if the US is incapable of standing up to Israel but is israel prepared to halt all the new settlements they're in the process of building to achieve piece? The answer is most definitely not.They've come much too far to turn back and bow to the US and international pressure. The fact that the current situation has drawn much attention is obviously very positive but it may be too little too late.

    Strict sanctions should be applied against Israel like those that toppled Apartheid South Africa.
  • alivegirlalivegirl Posts: 124
    Byrnzie wrote:

    Strict sanctions should be applied against Israel like those that toppled Apartheid South Africa.

    Totally agree and I wish those sanctions where in place a long time ago,could've prevented a lot of innocent lives being lost ( like your image depicts, very confronting stuff ). Just cant see it happening any time soon.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    About time too:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... nian-talks

    Quartet blasts Israel over East Jerusalem settlements

    Strongly worded statement from Middle East peace envoys calls for pullout from Palestinian territories within 24 months

    * Luke Harding in Moscow
    * guardian.co.uk, Friday 19 March 2010



    'The Middle East quartet has strongly denounced Israeli moves to build 1,600 new homes in East Jerusalem and urged the Israeli government and Palestinians to resume peace negotiations.

    In a hard-hitting statement after a meeting in Moscow, the UN, the EU, Russia and the US condemned Israel's "unilateral" construction plans and said the status of Jerusalem could only be resolved through negotiations between both parties.

    The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, said: "The quartet condemns the decision by the government of Israel to advance planning for new housing units in East Jerusalem."

    The quartet expected that talks between Israelis and Palestinians should lead to a negotiated settlement that "within 24 months" ends the occupation of Palestinian territories begun in 1967. The settlement should result "in the emergence of an independent, democratic, and viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel and its other neighbours".

    The quartet includes Hillary Clinton for the US; Russia's foreign secretary, Sergei Lavrov; Tony Blair, the quartet's special representative; and Lady Ashton, the EU foreign policy chief.


    The statement expressed deep alarm at the deteriorating situation in Gaza, urging Israel to lift its blockade of the Gaza Strip for both humanitarian and commercial traffic and calling for a "durable resolution to the Gaza crisis".

    Clinton said she had spoken last night to the Israel prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, following his apparent offer of "confidence-building measures" to encourage the renewal of peace talks. She described the conversation as "very useful and productive … We don't believe unilateral action by any parties are helpful. We've made this clear."

    None of the quartet parties were willing to say what pressure they were prepared to put on Israel should it ignore today's statement.

    The quartet called on Israel to freeze all settlement activity "including natural growth", to dismantle outposts erected since March 2001, and to "refrain from demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem". It also appealed for the international community to back the Palestinians' commitment to build an independent state by offering immediate and concrete support.

    A statement from Netanyahu's office said he proposed a series of steps that would make it easier for the Palestinians to join the talks. He did not specify what these would be, but they could include easing Israeli roadblocks in the West Bank, the withdrawal of Israeli troops from more parts of the West Bank and the release of Palestinian prisoners.

    He did not announce, as the US had demanded, a freeze on the construction of Jewish homes in Ramat Shlomo in East Jerusalem, the key sticking point.

    But diplomats in Washington, Moscow and Jerusalem said Netanyahu had privately promised a temporary freeze on new construction. The work, while not cancelled, is to be postponed for several years.

    The Israeli ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, told the Washington Post: "The goal of both sides at this point is to put this behind us and go forward with the proximity talks as quickly as possible."

    This morning Ban said the Israeli government had approved several long-standing UN humanitarian programmes in Gaza, including a water and sanitation project, a flour mill, temporary schools and 150 houses. The UN secretary general said he would be travelling to Gaza on Sunday to see the situation on the ground there himself, following yesterday's visit by Lady Ashton. The EU foreign policy chief is understood to have been shocked by her trip to Gaza, privately describing it as "worse than Haiti".

    Asked about her phone conversation with Netanyahu, Clinton today struck a more conciliatory note following her comments last week that Israel's building plans for East Jerusalem – announced during a visit by the US vice-president, Joe Biden – were "insulting". Of US-Israeli ties, she said: "Our relationship is ongoing. It is deep and broad. It is strong and enduring."

    She went on: "We believe that the launch of the proximity talks is very much in Israel's interests, as it is in the interests of the Palestinians. We hope to see these talks commence as soon as possible."

    A US state department spokesman, PJ Crowley, said Clinton and Netanyahu had discussed "specific steps" to improve the outlook for Middle East peace talks. Netanyahu's spokesman, Nir Chefetz, said the prime minister had proposed "mutual confidence-building steps" that both Israel and the Palestinians could take.

    Last night Israel retaliated for a Palestinian rocket attack that killed a Thai agricultural worker. Israeli planes struck at least two targets in Gaza, officials and witnesses said.

    The quartet condemned yesterday's rocket attack from Gaza and called for "an immediate end to violence and terror and for calm to be respected". It also urged the release of the captive Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.
  • A new poll shows that Netanyahu's party is going to take a hit in the next election cycle, specifically for fraying relations with the Obama Administration. "It said a majority of 64 percent felt that the Netanyahu coalition's policies "do not represent" their wishes."

    Reminds me a little of the US under Bush.


    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100319/tp ... a8d4f.html
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Byrnzie wrote:
    n505823533_1175271_4560.jpg




    and its paid at the beginning of the year so we have to borrow and pay interest on the anuual $3B we give them. at least the money ends up back in the US thou via aipac and other pro israeli pacs.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    A new poll shows that Netanyahu's party is going to take a hit in the next election cycle, specifically for fraying relations with the Obama Administration. "It said a majority of 64 percent felt that the Netanyahu coalition's policies "do not represent" their wishes."

    Reminds me a little of the US under Bush.


    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100319/tp ... a8d4f.html

    unfortunately tho - it doesn't matter who is in power because that person will always require the support of the right wing factions of parliament making them vital in someone taking and keeping power ...
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    The Israelis are doing everything they can to scupper any peace talks:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... eal-nablus
    Palestinians shot dead by Israeli troops near Nablus

    Two teenagers killed day after boys, 15 and 17, shot in village



    * Rory McCarthy in Nablus and agencies
    * guardian.co.uk, Sunday 21 March 2010 14.22 GMT



    Israeli troops shot dead two Palestinians in the occupied West Bank today amid a new descent into violence.

    The two, who Palestinians claimed were detained while ploughing a field of olive trees near Nablus, were shot several times. Palestinian officials said both were 17. The Israeli military said they had tried to stab a soldier.

    The deaths bring to five the number of people killed in the region in the past week.

    As the violence placed further strain on US efforts to get peace talks under way, a spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, said he would be meeting Barack Obama in the US on Tuesday.

    Netanyahu's visit comes at a time of heightened tensions between Israel and the US over a controversial Jewish housing project in east Jerusalem. The project embarrassed Washington because it was announced while the vice-president, Joe Biden, was in Jerusalem to kickstart Israeli-Palestinian talks.

    Earlier today, relatives buried the bodies of two teenage Palestinian boys who were shot dead by Israeli troops yesterday during a demonstration against settlers in the village of Iraq Burin, also near Nablus. Last week, a Thai worker in southern Israel was killed by a rocket fired by militants in Gaza.

    Witnesses in Iraq Burin described how Israelis from the nearby hilltop settlement of Brakha came down on to the village's farmland yesterday. Israeli troops were deployed and Palestinian boys threw stones at the soldiers.

    Mohammad Qadus, 15, and Osaid Qadus, 17, were shot dead inside the village shortly after they arrived back in Iraq Burin on a local bus. Neither had taken part in the demonstration, witnesses in the village said.

    Amir Aref, 16, a friend of both boys, tried to drag them to safety. He described how he saw Osaid sitting on the ground in front of a store. "I was telling him: 'Stand up, stand up.' But he refused to answer," Aref said. "I looked at him. Blood was coming down from a small hole in his forehead, his brains were coming out."

    He then turned to Mohammad and saw him lying on the road nearby. "I carried him and took him into the village in my arms," Aref said. "I looked at him and he said 'Amir', then blood came out of his mouth. He gasped and then he died."

    Witnesses and doctors at the Nablus speciality hospital, where the boys were treated, said both were hit by what appeared to be live rounds that left small entry wounds.

    The Israeli military said in a statement there had been a "violent and illegal riot" in the village and that soldiers "responded with riot dispersal means". It said troops fired tear gas and rubber bullets, but denied firing live rounds. "Live fire was not used," the military said.

    However, a hospital x-ray of Osaid Qadus, seen by the Guardian, showed a bullet lodged in his brain.

    Ahmed Hamad, a doctor at the hospital who treated the two, said the x-ray showed a "classic, pure metallic bullet". He said both boys had injuries with small entry wounds.
  • ty9969ty9969 Posts: 48
    American governments voice their objections now and then, Isreal voices a desire for peace talks. Meanwhile, money keeps flowing, settlements keep growing and more people die.
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