US Debt Clock

WaveCameCrashin

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
:shock:
Just think what this is going to look like when Obama get's done with us..

FiveB247x

Actually, if you have a historical look at the debt the US has created, the highest and largest increases were during Reagan, Bush and Bush.... but let's not let silly things like facts get in the way of some good political pandering.

http://www.babylontoday.com/64482ae0.png

prfctlefts wrote:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
:shock:
Just think what this is going to look like when Obama get's done with us..

Cliffy6745

Dude, I am not here all the time, but I read more than I post. I have yet to see you offer any alternative idea for any of the problems that are causing this debt clock to keep rising. It is always just "Obama is spending too much" and his ideas are unconstitutional.

How would you have handled the financial crisis? Instead of saying you wouldn't have given bailouts because thats spending, please explain how you would have liked to avoid a complete collapse of the financial sector.

How would you like to handle healthcare? The insurance industry is crippling America and something needs to be done.

Jobs? How would you like to stimulate the job market and get companies hiring again?

Stimulus package? Any ideas on how we could have stopped the bleeding without it?

WaveCameCrashin

FiveB247x wrote:

Actually, if you have a historical look at the debt the US has created, the highest and largest increases were during Reagan, Bush and Bush.... but let's not let silly things like facts get in the way of some good political pandering.

http://www.babylontoday.com/64482ae0.png

prfctlefts wrote:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
:shock:
Just think what this is going to look like when Obama get's done with us..

Yeah your right but is Obama doing any better? I think we all know the answer

FiveB247x

But here's the thing you seem to be missing, you assume everyone is satisfied with all the things he's doing or even that the other side has a better alternative. My point is that both sides have caused all these problems and continually going to a dry well for water will merely have the same results. You just throw stones at Obama and as another poster said, offer no alternative or answer instead.

prfctlefts wrote:

Yeah your right but is Obama doing any better? I think we all know the answer

EvoLukin

FiveB247x wrote:

Actually, if you have a historical look at the debt the US has created, the highest and largest increases were during Reagan, Bush and Bush.... but let's not let silly things like facts get in the way of some good political pandering.

http://www.babylontoday.com/64482ae0.png

prfctlefts wrote:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
:shock:
Just think what this is going to look like when Obama get's done with us..

We don't have any clue where Obama will rank. He has only been in office a year. But I would be willing to bet his administration will end up ranking pretty damn high. And if he somehow gets a second term, no doubt about it.

WaveCameCrashin

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Dude, I am not here all the time, but I read more than I post. I have yet to see you offer any alternative idea for any of the problems that are causing this debt clock to keep rising. It is always just "Obama is spending too much" and his ideas are unconstitutional.

How would you have handled the financial crisis? Instead of saying you wouldn't have given bailouts because thats spending, please explain how you would have liked to avoid a complete collapse of the financial sector.

How would you like to handle healthcare? The insurance industry is crippling America and something needs to be done.

Jobs? How would you like to stimulate the job market and get companies hiring again?

Stimulus package? Any ideas on how we could have stopped the bleeding without it?

First of all it's not my job to and I never said I could. But I have every right to criticize the current gov. Or do I.
1. Healthcare. Let us buy across state lines. In stead of only having 1 or 2 companies to choose from that will in it self create competition between the Ins companies there for the cost of premiums will go down and Tort reform

As far as jobs go I can tell you what doesn't work. Obama said if they didn't pass the stimulus bill un employment would rise to 8%.

Well guess what ? It's now above 10% when you factor in the people that can only find part time work.

FiveB247x

Well perhaps but if we're going to have that debate, we should also account for what you're paying for and receiving there-after. For example, Bush, Bush and Reagan primarily raised the debt to pay for wars... there's nothing substantial in terms of US and it's future for its citizens for that. Conversely, albeit we may not like or agree with Obama's healthcare or bailout plans, they involve things in which, if they work out, the US citizens will actually have something to show for it in the future.

EvoLukin wrote:

We don't have any clue where Obama will rank. He has only been in office a year. But I would be willing to bet his administration will end up ranking pretty damn high. And if he somehow gets a second term, no doubt about it.

FiveB247x

So in terms of healthcare, you want more competition in the free market, but don't seem to acknowledge part of the problem we are in is because we do not have uniform standards for all states in a federal manner, and also the free market is a culprit in making part of this problem. The free market has removed the human factor and put price tags on everyone's health.. you are not a human in need of care, you are a customer to be dealt with by a for profit company.

prfctlefts wrote:

First of all it's not my job to and I never said I could. But I have every right to criticize the current gov. Or do I.
1. Healthcare. Let us buy across state lines. In stead of only having 1 or 2 companies to choose from that will in it self create competition between the Ins companies there for the cost of premiums will go down and Tort reform

As far as jobs go I can tell you what doesn't work. Obama said if they didn't pass the stimulus bill un employment would rise to 8%.

Well guess what ? It's now above 10% when you factor in the people that can only find part time work.

WaveCameCrashin

Here's all those jobs that the stimulus bill Created..
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... urce=embed

EvoLukin

FiveB247x wrote:

Well perhaps but if we're going to have that debate, we should also account for what you're paying for and receiving there-after. For example, Bush, Bush and Reagan primarily raised the debt to pay for wars... there's nothing substantial in terms of US and it's future for its citizens for that. Conversely, albeit we may not like or agree with Obama's healthcare or bailout plans, they involve things in which, if they work out, the US citizens will actually have something to show for it in the future.

EvoLukin wrote:

We don't have any clue where Obama will rank. He has only been in office a year. But I would be willing to bet his administration will end up ranking pretty damn high. And if he somehow gets a second term, no doubt about it.

I hope you are right. And I hope that Obama will not have to deal with more military actions. But with Iran and North Korea out there, he could end up spending more money on a war than any other president in history. Time will tell.

WaveCameCrashin

FiveB247x wrote:

So in terms of healthcare, you want more competition in the free market, but don't seem to acknowledge part of the problem we are in is because we do not have uniform standards for all states in a federal manner, and also the free market is a culprit in making part of this problem. The free market has removed the human factor and put price tags on everyone's health.. you are not a human in need of care, you are a customer to be dealt with by a for profit company.

prfctlefts wrote:

First of all it's not my job to and I never said I could. But I have every right to criticize the current gov. Or do I.
1. Healthcare. Let us buy across state lines. In stead of only having 1 or 2 companies to choose from that will in it self create competition between the Ins companies there for the cost of premiums will go down and Tort reform

As far as jobs go I can tell you what doesn't work. Obama said if they didn't pass the stimulus bill un employment would rise to 8%.

Well guess what ? It's now above 10% when you factor in the people that can only find part time work.

Im not saying they shouldn't have standards or guidlines they should go by. The Free market is not the problem.One of the reasons why ins has become un affordable is becuase of slip and fall lawyers. Bu isn't it intresting how Obama doesn't support Tort reform ? Is it because they are his biggest financial supporters maybe ? Raising Taxes on the most productive members of society will only exacerbate the situation.

WaveCameCrashin

FiveB247x wrote:

Well perhaps but if we're going to have that debate, we should also account for what you're paying for and receiving there-after. For example, Bush, Bush and Reagan primarily raised the debt to pay for wars... there's nothing substantial in terms of US and it's future for its citizens for that. Conversely, albeit we may not like or agree with Obama's healthcare or bailout plans, they involve things in which, if they work out, the US citizens will actually have something to show for it in the future.

EvoLukin wrote:

We don't have any clue where Obama will rank. He has only been in office a year. But I would be willing to bet his administration will end up ranking pretty damn high. And if he somehow gets a second term, no doubt about it.

W'ell you obvoiusly don't know your history when it comes to Regan.
He revived the economy from J.Carter,defeated communisim around the world and raised the standard of livng for all americans across the board independent of race,sex,and class.
The annual groth rate of giving during the 80's was 55% higher than the past 25 years.
Donations totaled $124.31 billion By the time Regan left office in 1989 households with yearly incomes of 25,000 increased to 3.9 million. Up from 2.6 million in 1979.
From 1980 to 1990 black household income increased 84% whites 64%
black owned businesses increased from 308,thousand in 1982 to 424,000 in 1987 a 38% increase.

gimmesometruth27

prfctlefts wrote:

Im not saying they shouldn't have standards or guidlines they should go by. The Free market is not the problem.One of the reasons why ins has become un affordable is becuase of slip and fall lawyers. Bu isn't it intresting how Obama doesn't support Tort reform ? Is it because they are his biggest financial supporters maybe ? Raising Taxes on the most productive members of society will only exacerbate the situation.

so raising taxes on the people that can afford a higher tax rate is going to exacerbate the situation??? right... what millionaires do you personally know that are going to be so tragicly affected and made financially devestated by this?

tort "reform" is bullshit. there are surgeons and doctors out there that act with incompetance at best, and at worst, outright malice. how often do we hear about easily treated conditions going missed by doctors? i heard the other day some surgeon amputated the wrong leg in a patient. then they had to go back and amputate the other leg making him a below the knee double amputee. the proposed cap on these torts is $250,000. in my opinion, that is not nearly enough to cover fitting and fabrication of prosthetics, months and months of therapy, and the psychological damage that will result. how often are sponges, and suture kits left inside of patients? all too often. tort "refrom" is nothing more than buying silence from the ones who were wronged, and to me that's bullshit. what is the price of losing both legs? what is the cost of missing a cancer diagnoses? what does a life cost when the death is the result of malice, malfeasance, misfeasance, and failure to act?? i say these patients are entitled to whatever a jury deems they deserve as appropriate compensation, not what some stupid chamber of congress deems is the cap...

FiveB247x

Once again, you're playing one side of the argument and not looking at the entire problem and issues in order to just blame Obama or whomever you deem wrong.

When the free market is left to its own devices with no government involvement or lose regulation (with our current system as it stands), we get what happened in the banking industry... greed which leads to the public getting taken advantage of. Funny how you rant about the bailouts, yet ignore their roots and causes. You also complain about tort reform - when did this become a popular issue for anyone in our government (either party)?

Also, you complain about our debt and programs aimed reducing future costs upon society (including some at our economy in very large scales), yet your answer is to not raise taxes? How do we pay off our debt (whether Obama's or any other president who raised it), without taxes? I'm really looking forward to this magical answer.

prfctlefts wrote:

Im not saying they shouldn't have standards or guidlines they should go by. The Free market is not the problem.One of the reasons why ins has become un affordable is becuase of slip and fall lawyers. Bu isn't it intresting how Obama doesn't support Tort reform ? Is it because they are his biggest financial supporters maybe ? Raising Taxes on the most productive members of society will only exacerbate the situation.

FiveB247x

How come Reagan's debt and bad economy is attributed to Carter while Obama's is his own? Last I checked, Obama didn't cause the economic recession we now see, it was the Bush administration loosing of regulation and law compounded by wars which were at best case scenario, in questionable necessity.

I also enjoy how you throw all of these random economic statistics out completely ignoring the topic at hand... Ronald Reagan's contribution to the national debt - which was at the time, the largest it ever was.

Also, just to give you an idea of economic markers, in the past 20-30 yrs, our separation of wealth between the richest and poorest of our nation has grown to the some of the highest levels we've ever had as a nation (which were in the early 1900's) - the time of big business, monopolies and robber barons. If it sounds familar, it should cause it merely resembles the US in the 80's - current..and that is a result of government and big business being in bed together while the citizens bend over for the high hard one. You try and blame one side and it's ridiculous and backed by nothing more than your bias - certainly not truth or fact.

prfctlefts wrote:

W'ell you obvoiusly don't know your history when it comes to Regan.
He revived the economy from J.Carter,defeated communisim around the world and raised the standard of livng for all americans across the board independent of race,sex,and class.
The annual groth rate of giving during the 80's was 55% higher than the past 25 years.
Donations totaled $124.31 billion By the time Regan left office in 1989 households with yearly incomes of 25,000 increased to 3.9 million. Up from 2.6 million in 1979.
From 1980 to 1990 black household income increased 84% whites 64%
black owned businesses increased from 308,thousand in 1982 to 424,000 in 1987 a 38% increase.

WaveCameCrashin

FiveB247x wrote:

How come Reagan's debt and bad economy is attributed to Carter while Obama's is his own? Last I checked, Obama didn't cause the economic recession we now see, it was the Bush administration loosing of regulation and law compounded by wars which were at best case scenario, in questionable necessity.

I also enjoy how you throw all of these random economic statistics out completely ignoring the topic at hand... Ronald Reagan's contribution to the national debt - which was at the time, the largest it ever was.

Also, just to give you an idea of economic markers, in the past 20-30 yrs, our separation of wealth between the richest and poorest of our nation has grown to the some of the highest levels we've ever had as a nation (which were in the early 1900's) - the time of big business, monopolies and robber barons. If it sounds familar, it should cause it merely resembles the US in the 80's - current..and that is a result of government and big business being in bed together while the citizens bend over for the high hard one. You try and blame one side and it's ridiculous and backed by nothing more than your bias - certainly not truth or fact.

prfctlefts wrote:

W'ell you obvoiusly don't know your history when it comes to Regan.
He revived the economy from J.Carter,defeated communisim around the world and raised the standard of livng for all americans across the board independent of race,sex,and class.
The annual groth rate of giving during the 80's was 55% higher than the past 25 years.
Donations totaled $124.31 billion By the time Regan left office in 1989 households with yearly incomes of 25,000 increased to 3.9 million. Up from 2.6 million in 1979.
From 1980 to 1990 black household income increased 84% whites 64%
black owned businesses increased from 308,thousand in 1982 to 424,000 in 1987 a 38% increase.

:roll: :yawn: :yawn:
First off your putting words in my mouth I never said Obama created it. I said he isnt making it any better by spending more money. Four times in one year what the last president spent in 8 years. When are you going to get that through your head. California is a prime example what out of control spending will happen.and yes I know they have a republican governor,but it's made up of mostly democrats. Greece is another example of what happens when you have massive entitlement programs.

In 1986 Reagan obtained an overhaul of the income tax code, which eliminated many deductions and exempted millions of people with low incomes. At the end of his administration, the Nation was enjoying its longest recorded period of peacetime prosperity without recession or depression.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/ronaldreagan

FiveB247x

You see the part in red - that is the portion Reagan, Bush and Bush took our debt to it's highest levels. Nothing but wars and weapons armament which have little or no value in the world today - absolutely none. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with Obama's programs, atleast they offer some positive aspects for our citizens.. that is not anything remotely you can say about the other 3... yet you ignore this.

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif

And just to be clear, you offer no solution how to get us out of debt, you offer no solution as an alternative how to fix healthcare, the economy (the bailouts) and similar, but simply bitch and wine about what Obama is doing. You may not agree with his programs, but offer no realistic or possible alternatives in any manner. Apparently pointing out that we have an out of control welfare state is enough and ways to fix it or alternatives aren't necessary?

prfctlefts wrote:

First off your putting words in my mouth I never said Obama created it. I said he isnt making it any better by spending more money. Four times in one year what the last president spent in 8 years. When are you going to get that through your head. California is a prime example what out of control spending will happen.and yes I know they have a republican governor,but it's made up of mostly democrats. Greece is another example of what happens when you have massive entitlement programs.

In 1986 Reagan obtained an overhaul of the income tax code, which eliminated many deductions and exempted millions of people with low incomes. At the end of his administration, the Nation was enjoying its longest recorded period of peacetime prosperity without recession or depression.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/ronaldreagan

CJMST3K

FiveB247x wrote:

Actually, if you have a historical look at the debt the US has created, the highest and largest increases were during Reagan, Bush and Bush...."

Probably, but that's because democrats make affluent people pay more taxes, when they are already paying more taxes. We need a flat tax. Make it a flat percentage, and naturally the more you make the more you pay, and it's proportionate.

Right now 43.3 % of Americans pay NO income tax, or negative income tax. Charge THEM taxes for their income, and maybe we'll get the deficit to improve.

CJMST3K

I don't blame Obama for the economic collapse. I blame Clinton. It was his administration that loosened credit for home buyers... and the housing collapse followed in the following administration.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/easescredit.asp

FiveB247x

Once again, why attempt to blame one side? Both sides have had their hands full of guilt and wrong-doing which have led this nation down a terrible path. You can point to example after example of each side playing their part in these problems, whether it's foreign policy, healthcare, economy, national debt and many others. At what point do we as citizens who want to make this nation better stop merely acting like 2 children, each pointing at one another as the one who started the mess? There are many viable and realistic solutions to all of these problems but our citizens are so filled with misguided party bias and dis-information that we can't accomplish anything. And in the end, business and government are ruling the roost, while we all squabble about nonsense. All the terrible things that result from it, wars, poverty, separation of wealth, greed, suffering and similar.. it's becoming due and deserved cause at some point we're merely responsible, not the leaders. We vote (or don't), we empower (or sit idle), we enable (by action or inaction). It's all on us.. so fix it or don't, but don't say it's someone else's fault.. cause it is not... it's ours.

CJMST3K wrote:

Probably, but that's because democrats make affluent people pay more taxes, when they are already paying more taxes. We need a flat tax. Make it a flat percentage, and naturally the more you make the more you pay, and it's proportionate.

Right now 43.3 % of Americans pay NO income tax, or negative income tax. Charge THEM taxes for their income, and maybe we'll get the deficit to improve.

polaris_x

partisanship will be the death of us all