Israel & Palestine: Can They Start Over?

redrock

yosi wrote:

You said that there was nothing in this article to fight about. .

'No points worth arguing' does not mean nothing to fight about. To argue is to put forth reasons for or against, not automatically to fight.

polaris_x

yosi wrote:

I'd agree about Fayyad and Abbas, I think they are both moderates. Hamas is another story in my opinion. I'd like to see Israel actually go through with a total freeze on settlement building, and for the Palestinians to come back to the table. I think the issue on the Israeli side is one of internal politics. A freeze now would probably instigate a showdown with the Israeli rightwing, which the settlers very well might turn violent, and the government is probably looking to avoid that. That's probably why they decided on a partial freeze. I'd like to see them confront the right, cause it's going to have to happen eventually, so it might as well be now. That said, it would be helpful, I think, if the Palestinians would come back to negotiations now. Doing so might allow the Israeli government to impose a full freeze without appearing to capitulate to Palestinian demands without getting anything in return. They could frame it as an outcome of negotiation, which could defuse some of the rightwing backlash. I don't know, maybe I'm being a little too optimistic, but that's my read.

hamas is the result of israeli policy and to a lesser degree corrupt PLO members ... i agree with much of what you wrote however, a fundamental problem is seeing that negotiations should be a two-way street at this point ... why should there be any concessions by Palestinians right now outside of a ceasefire? ... Israel continues to expand illegally, they continue to treat Palestinians below the standards of human decency ... I have stated for a long time now that if there is to be any change - it starts with Israel ... there needs to be a acceptance of their role in this affair ...

I do undertand that the internal politics are complex especially considering the complexities of the gazillion parties that exist in Israel - you can't negotiate with a hard-liner that has to appease his right-wing base ...

badbrains

Here's my response to the thread. Both the people of Palestine and the people of Israel do want peace. It's just that the governments on both sides dnt seem to. So much for governments working for the people and by the people ey.....and with all the information out there for you to get, figure out who and why it isn't happening. I find it amazing that both sides keep getting it wrong yet they still govern. Politicas in EVERY country is a fucking joke. Even here in America. The one moral country that had an idiot STEAL 2 elections. God we are a nation of sheep. I'm no fan of Obama either. 44 presidents and 44 same policies. Not 1 can think for himself. I promise you this, next election will be a woman president in America. Shit they're already getting them prept. People really need to wake the fuck up. I'm just affraid it mite be to late.

rebornFixer

badbrains wrote:

Here's my response to the thread. Both the people of Palestine and the people of Israel do want peace. It's just that the governments on both sides dnt seem to. So much for governments working for the people and by the people ey.....and with all the information out there for you to get, figure out who and why it isn't happening. I find it amazing that both sides keep getting it wrong yet they still govern. Politicas in EVERY country is a fucking joke. Even here in America. The one moral country that had an idiot STEAL 2 elections. God we are a nation of sheep. I'm no fan of Obama either. 44 presidents and 44 same policies. Not 1 can think for himself. I promise you this, next election will be a woman president in America. Shit they're already getting them prept. People really need to wake the fuck up. I'm just affraid it mite be to late.

Its hard to disagree with a lot of this post. Waking the fuck up would help a lot of people, the world over.

In response to pepe and polaris ... If you guys view yourselves as progressives, power to you. That's not how it always comes across, at least in the case of the hardcore anti-Israel crowd on here (not sure I'd put polaris in that group). The point is not to foreclose discussion. The point is to keep it basically civil, which seems to be challenge for all of us lately. No, I don't think being opposed to Israel's policies makes one a terrorist. I myself am opposed to many of their policies. What bothers me is the observation that I cannot seem to take issue with some of the details in the arguments presented without someone calling my intellect into question, or painting me as a complete and total IDF apologist (which I am not, and neither is yosi). This debate style is totalitarian and yes, extreme. What happened to actually sitting there and digesting the points made, and maybe even looking for the truth in there, on some level? That's how Israel and Palestine are eventually going to sort this thing out ... They are going to compromise and on some level see each others' points of view, even if at the end of the day the major onus is on Israel.

rebornFixer

polaris_x wrote:

hamas is the result of israeli policy and to a lesser degree corrupt PLO members ... i agree with much of what you wrote however, a fundamental problem is seeing that negotiations should be a two-way street at this point ... why should there be any concessions by Palestinians right now outside of a ceasefire? ... Israel continues to expand illegally, they continue to treat Palestinians below the standards of human decency ... I have stated for a long time now that if there is to be any change - it starts with Israel ... there needs to be a acceptance of their role in this affair ...

I do undertand that the internal politics are complex especially considering the complexities of the gazillion parties that exist in Israel - you can't negotiate with a hard-liner that has to appease his right-wing base ...

The only concession that I think would be helpful for the Palestinians would be to cease all attacks on Israeli soil (suicide bombings, rockets, etc.). The suicide bombings have already dropped off a lot, so why not make an explicit policy decision that the terrorism stops? And that's perhaps about all they'd need to do. They have a right to own weaponry and defend themselves against incursions on their territory, just like Israel does. But why not lose the polarizing aspects of Hamas ideology and see what happens? The rest would be on Israel, granted.

yosi

Guys, this is awesome! Nobody is pointing fingers, nobody is name calling, people are listening to each other! I don't really have a point to make except that I'm really happy that the discussion on this topic has all of a sudden become so much more civil, and kind.

gimmesometruth27

yosi wrote:

Guys, this is awesome! Nobody is pointing fingers, nobody is name calling, people are listening to each other! I don't really have a point to make except that I'm really happy that the discussion on this topic has all of a sudden become so much more civil, and kind.

probably because nobody wants to participate in a thread that resulted from you and your budy PM ing each other to formulate this "experiment"...

seems a little maunfactured and insincere to me...

yosi

And...it's over.

polaris_x

rebornFixer wrote:

The only concession that I think would be helpful for the Palestinians would be to cease all attacks on Israeli soil (suicide bombings, rockets, etc.). The suicide bombings have already dropped off a lot, so why not make an explicit policy decision that the terrorism stops? And that's perhaps about all they'd need to do. They have a right to own weaponry and defend themselves against incursions on their territory, just like Israel does. But why not lose the polarizing aspects of Hamas ideology and see what happens? The rest would be on Israel, granted.

that's what i said - a ceasefire from the palestinians ... you've got to understand tho that "seeing what happens" is what they've been doing for decades ... you need to accept that Israel is not currently interested in a solution of meaningful substance right now ... they currently have the support of the people that matter and they have no problem oppressing the palestinians ... if it isn't Hamas - it will be something else ... remember -there were a ton of UN security resolutions against Israel prior to the existence of Hamas ...

the notion that both sides are wrong and that they should just negotiate some solution now totally ignores the fact that Israel on a daily basis are committing crimes against humanity ... every single day ...

as far as the progressives thing ... again - it all stems from what each of us believes to be the truth ... what each of us considers extreme varies ... comments associated with that kind of stuff is usually aimed at detracting from the main point i find ...

Pepe Silvia

polaris_x wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

The only concession that I think would be helpful for the Palestinians would be to cease all attacks on Israeli soil (suicide bombings, rockets, etc.). The suicide bombings have already dropped off a lot, so why not make an explicit policy decision that the terrorism stops? And that's perhaps about all they'd need to do. They have a right to own weaponry and defend themselves against incursions on their territory, just like Israel does. But why not lose the polarizing aspects of Hamas ideology and see what happens? The rest would be on Israel, granted.

that's what i said - a ceasefire from the palestinians ... you've got to understand tho that "seeing what happens" is what they've been doing for decades ... you need to accept that Israel is not currently interested in a solution of meaningful substance right now ... they currently have the support of the people that matter and they have no problem oppressing the palestinians ... if it isn't Hamas - it will be something else ... remember -there were a ton of UN security resolutions against Israel prior to the existence of Hamas ...

the notion that both sides are wrong and that they should just negotiate some solution now totally ignores the fact that Israel on a daily basis are committing crimes against humanity ... every single day ...

as far as the progressives thing ... again - it all stems from what each of us believes to be the truth ... what each of us considers extreme varies ... comments associated with that kind of stuff is usually aimed at detracting from the main point i find ...

they have tried that. in 2007 there was only a single suicide attack against Israel killing 3 people. that same year over 650 Palestinians were killed and the following year Israel imposed the catastrophic blockade on Gaza.

i'm not arguing against stopping violence, just saying even when they do do that they only get more abuse so i think it may be a little hard to convince some. the defense minister sees it, 4 former heads of the shin bet see it, stop making excuses and make peace already, Israel.