Israel is scared of the Palestinians????

Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
edited January 2010 in A Moving Train
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... +Since.htm

according to Israel suicide attacks against Israel have dramatically DECREASED

only 1 attack causing 3 Israeli deaths in 2007 and Israel killed over 650 Palestinians that same year....so, Yosi, how is it that Israel are the ones scared of the other???????

what did Israel do the following year with such a dramatic decrease in Israeli deaths?

In June, the Israeli government imposed an unprecedented blockade on the Gaza Strip, virtually imprisoning its entire 1.5 million population, subjecting them to collective punishment and causing the gravest humanitarian crisis to date. Some 40 Palestinians died after being refused passage out of Gaza for urgent medical treatment not available in local hospitals. Most Gazans were left dependent on international aid for survival but UN aid agencies complained that the Israeli blockade made it difficult for them to provide the much needed assistance. In the West Bank, the Israeli authorities continued to expand illegal settlements and build a 700-km fence/wall in violation of international law. Impunity remained the norm for Israeli soldiers and Israeli settlers who committed serious abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, physical assaults and attacks on property. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested, most of whom were released without charge. Those charged with security-related offences often received unfair trials before military courts. Some 9,000 Palestinian adults and children remained in Israeli jails, some of whom had been held without charge or trial for years.
don't compete; coexist

what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Deaths have decreased because Israel has imposed draconian security measures to stop terrorists before they can strike. If Israel were to pull the IDF out of the occupied territories, lift all the roadblocks, and dismantle the security fence, I am almost certain that terrorism would spike immediately. So Israelis are scared because they know that were it not for the measures their military is currently taking it would be 2002 all over again and they would literally not be safe anywhere in their own country.

    Let me ask you something, even if you can understand what would drive Palestinians to want to attack Israel violently, don't you think that the terrorism is counter-productive? Assume for a second that I'm right that the main reason Israel is so intransigent is because of concern for the security of its citizens. If that is the case then from a Palestinian perspective wouldn't the best thing to do be to stop all violence immediately and try to convince the Israelis that you accept them and are willing to live in peace with them? And if that is the case, then in the interests of the Palestinians, instead of ranting about how bad Israel is, wouldn't it be more productive to put pressure on the Palestinians who already renounce violence to not just say that they don't support terrorism, but to control the extremists responsible for the violence that is the reason for Israel's security concerns? Just try to think about this with that one assumption in mind, that all Israel really wants is peace and security.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    ......the terrorism..
    .

    Terrorism from Israel's point of view, freedom fighting from Palestine's point of view.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    ......the terrorism..
    .

    Terrorism from Israel's point of view, freedom fighting from Palestine's point of view.

    Yeah, I recognize that that's how they see it. I've already said that I actually think that in this situation if the Palestinians restricted their violence to military targets that it would be morally defensible. But they don't. I know they're oppressed, but I just don't think that it is ever morally defensible to target civilians no matter what. So in my book as long as the violence target civilians it's terrorism. Should they ever restrict the violence to military targets I will drop the terrorism label.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    ......the terrorism..
    .

    Terrorism from Israel's point of view, freedom fighting from Palestine's point of view.

    Yeah, I recognize that that's how they see it. I've already said that I actually think that in this situation if the Palestinians restricted their violence to military targets that it would be morally defensible. But they don't. I know they're oppressed, but I just don't think that it is ever morally defensible to target civilians no matter what. So in my book as long as the violence target civilians it's terrorism. Should they ever restrict the violence to military targets I will drop the terrorism label.

    Then the israelis can also be branded terrorists. Be even.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    ......the terrorism..
    .

    Terrorism from Israel's point of view, freedom fighting from Palestine's point of view.

    Yeah, I recognize that that's how they see it. I've already said that I actually think that in this situation if the Palestinians restricted their violence to military targets that it would be morally defensible. But they don't. I know they're oppressed, but I just don't think that it is ever morally defensible to target civilians no matter what. So in my book as long as the violence target civilians it's terrorism. Should they ever restrict the violence to military targets I will drop the terrorism label.[/quote]

    Then the israelis can also be branded terrorists. Be even.[/quote]

    Israel kills civilians by accident, although I'll allow that they have become much more callous than they used to be about civilians caught in the crossfire. I'm also not saying that there have not been instances where IDF soldiers killed civilians on purpose, but to do so is criminal and does not represent Israeli policy. The same cannot be said about a guy that blows himself up in a cafe at lunch time.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    In response to the thread title, yes, and you would be too if you were in their shoes. Trust me. I've been there. Can you say the same?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:

    Israel kills civilians by accident, ....

    Let me express my surprise at this statement :o
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    In response to the thread title, yes, and you would be too if you were in their shoes. Trust me. I've been there. Can you say the same?

    Not scared of the Irish, though they did blow up a few things here.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    In response to the thread title, yes, and you would be too if you were in their shoes. Trust me. I've been there. Can you say the same?

    Not scared of the Irish, though they did blow up a few things here.

    Well, if the Irish were still trying to blow things up do you think you might be scared of them then?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    In response to the thread title, yes, and you would be too if you were in their shoes. Trust me. I've been there. Can you say the same?

    Not scared of the Irish, though they did blow up a few things here.

    Well, if the Irish were still trying to blow things up do you think you might be scared of them then?

    I wasn't when they were and I still wouldn't be.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    You're brave. Let me ask you how frequent were the attacks when they were happening, and did you ever know anyone who was killed? Was there a general fear to go at to any public place while the attacks were going on? I really don't know much about the IRA and the whole conflict over there, I'm sorry to say. One complex conflict is as much as I can handle.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    Deaths have decreased because Israel has imposed draconian security measures to stop terrorists before they can strike. If Israel were to pull the IDF out of the occupied territories, lift all the roadblocks, and dismantle the security fence, I am almost certain that terrorism would spike immediately. So Israelis are scared because they know that were it not for the measures their military is currently taking it would be 2002 all over again and they would literally not be safe anywhere in their own country.


    but that doesn't make sense. in another thread you said if the Israeli's weren't so afraid of the Palestinians blowing them up on buses they would be willing to ease sanctions and work towards peace....

    i show you the Israeli government says in the entire year of 2007 there was only 1 bomb, which was in a bakery and not a bus, in this same year Israel killed over 650 Palestinians.

    so 3 Israeli deaths compared to over 650 Palestinian deaths so for every 1 Israeli killed by a suicide bomber in 2007 Israel murdered over 200 Palestinians.

    and THEN THE NEXT YEAR they start the blockade and you say huh, the draconian security measures worked!

    and then you say well if we give them back the land we stole they would just start blowing us up again. so how can you say you don't support the occupation when you don't support leaving, either???

    1 bombing in a whole year and instead of easing restrictions they got catastrophically worse!

    give me a break
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    so how can you say you don't support the occupation when you don't support leaving, either???
    exactly.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    _outlaw wrote:
    so how can you say you don't support the occupation when you don't support leaving, either???
    exactly.

    pretty much sums it up....
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Regarding the fear issue ... I don't think that posting a bunch of stats regarding who attacked whom and when is an effective way of "proving" that no one in Israel is scared of terrorism (assuming that's the goal here). I think its fairly obvious from talking to the people and observing their behavior that many in Israel are afraid of attacks. Not sure why that would be up for debate. Regardless of how misguided or not misguided the fear is, its there, and it almost certainly plays a role in Israeli policy decisions, including the decision to put up the wall.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Regarding the fear issue ... I don't think that posting a bunch of stats regarding who attacked whom and when is an effective way of "proving" that no one in Israel is scared of terrorism (assuming that's the goal here). I think its fairly obvious from talking to the people and observing their behavior that many in Israel are afraid of attacks. Not sure why that would be up for debate. Regardless of how misguided or not misguided the fear is, its there, and it almost certainly plays a role in Israeli policy decisions, including the decision to put up the wall.

    oh and the Palestinians DNT live in fear. I guess after 40+years of occupation and slaughter, u get used to. Shame on all Arab leaders in the world for allowing this to go on. But I guess when u sell ur soul to the devil, ur hands are pretty much tied up.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    yosi wrote:
    Deaths have decreased because Israel has imposed draconian security measures to stop terrorists before they can strike. If Israel were to pull the IDF out of the occupied territories, lift all the roadblocks, and dismantle the security fence, I am almost certain that terrorism would spike immediately. So Israelis are scared because they know that were it not for the measures their military is currently taking it would be 2002 all over again and they would literally not be safe anywhere in their own country.


    but that doesn't make sense. in another thread you said if the Israeli's weren't so afraid of the Palestinians blowing them up on buses they would be willing to ease sanctions and work towards peace....

    i show you the Israeli government says in the entire year of 2007 there was only 1 bomb, which was in a bakery and not a bus, in this same year Israel killed over 650 Palestinians.

    so 3 Israeli deaths compared to over 650 Palestinian deaths so for every 1 Israeli killed by a suicide bomber in 2007 Israel murdered over 200 Palestinians.

    and THEN THE NEXT YEAR they start the blockade and you say huh, the draconian security measures worked!

    and then you say well if we give them back the land we stole they would just start blowing us up again. so how can you say you don't support the occupation when you don't support leaving, either???

    1 bombing in a whole year and instead of easing restrictions they got catastrophically worse!

    give me a break

    MAYBE THIS WILL GET THROUGH IF I TYPE ALL IN CAPS. I SUPPORT ENDING THE OCCUPATION AS SOON AS IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO SO WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GUARANTEEING THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL. This position is only problematic if you don't care about Israel's security, in which case I'd wonder why you are so spiteful and cruel that you only care about the lives ruined on one side of this conflict, but not those ruined on the other. At least I can empathize with the Palestinians as well.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    badbrains wrote:
    Regarding the fear issue ... I don't think that posting a bunch of stats regarding who attacked whom and when is an effective way of "proving" that no one in Israel is scared of terrorism (assuming that's the goal here). I think its fairly obvious from talking to the people and observing their behavior that many in Israel are afraid of attacks. Not sure why that would be up for debate. Regardless of how misguided or not misguided the fear is, its there, and it almost certainly plays a role in Israeli policy decisions, including the decision to put up the wall.

    oh and the Palestinians DNT live in fear. I guess after 40+years of occupation and slaughter, u get used to. Shame on all Arab leaders in the world for allowing this to go on. But I guess when u sell ur soul to the devil, ur hands are pretty much tied up.

    Why do you think in such closed ways? Why is it that if I say that Israelis live in fear, you get all defensive and have to prove that the Palestinians live in more fear? Everyone in this region lives in fear. This is the most fucking tragic conflict on the face of the earth because both sides are victims and both sides are aggressors, and it is only when both sides realize this about themselves and each other that there is any chance of any of this shit being resolved.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Deaths have decreased because Israel has imposed draconian security measures to stop terrorists before they can strike. If Israel were to pull the IDF out of the occupied territories, lift all the roadblocks, and dismantle the security fence, I am almost certain that terrorism would spike immediately. So Israelis are scared because they know that were it not for the measures their military is currently taking it would be 2002 all over again and they would literally not be safe anywhere in their own country.


    but that doesn't make sense. in another thread you said if the Israeli's weren't so afraid of the Palestinians blowing them up on buses they would be willing to ease sanctions and work towards peace....

    i show you the Israeli government says in the entire year of 2007 there was only 1 bomb, which was in a bakery and not a bus, in this same year Israel killed over 650 Palestinians.

    so 3 Israeli deaths compared to over 650 Palestinian deaths so for every 1 Israeli killed by a suicide bomber in 2007 Israel murdered over 200 Palestinians.

    and THEN THE NEXT YEAR they start the blockade and you say huh, the draconian security measures worked!

    and then you say well if we give them back the land we stole they would just start blowing us up again. so how can you say you don't support the occupation when you don't support leaving, either???

    1 bombing in a whole year and instead of easing restrictions they got catastrophically worse!

    give me a break

    MAYBE THIS WILL GET THROUGH IF I TYPE ALL IN CAPS. I SUPPORT ENDING THE OCCUPATION AS SOON AS IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO SO WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GUARANTEEING THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL. This position is only problematic if you don't care about Israel's security, in which case I'd wonder why you are so spiteful and cruel that you only care about the lives ruined on one side of this conflict, but not those ruined on the other. At least I can empathize with the Palestinians as well.


    right, you empathize with them by saying the draconian security measures, which have crippled their economy and caused the majority of children to suffer from acute malnutrition, work :roll:

    i do feel bad for an innocent Israeli that loses their life but in some cases they die from their illegal action. if i break into someone's house they can shoot me. when Israel keeps stealing the land of others, uprooting their grooves and dehumanizing them suddenly their innocence is somewhat questionable.

    not saying it's right but they have been dealing with this abuse for decades and they feel like they have no hope or choice but to react violently because the world obviously doesn't care
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    Regarding the fear issue ... I don't think that posting a bunch of stats regarding who attacked whom and when is an effective way of "proving" that no one in Israel is scared of terrorism (assuming that's the goal here). I think its fairly obvious from talking to the people and observing their behavior that many in Israel are afraid of attacks. Not sure why that would be up for debate. Regardless of how misguided or not misguided the fear is, its there, and it almost certainly plays a role in Israeli policy decisions, including the decision to put up the wall.


    then what can the Palestinians do?? Yosi said they should react non violently and Israel would ease restrictions. i show they DO act non violently and are locked up without a charge or trial. his response? that doesn't justify violence....not sure who said it did.

    Yosi then went on to say if Israel wasn't scared constantly of being blown up on buses they would ease restrictions. i show that, according to Israel, in 2007 there was only 1 suicide attack, which wasn't even on a bus...so a year of not being afraid of being blown up on buses and what is Israel's reaction? they kill 650+ Palestinians and the next year start the crippling, catastrophic blockade....his reply? i guess the draconian security measures work!

    all i hear is a whole lotta 'well, if they do X things will get better. oh, they have done X? well, if they do Y things will get better. oh, they do Y? i guess it pays off to be draconian!'

    1 fucking bomb attack in a year, so why would they still be scared? when the Palestinians act non violently they just get trampled more
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Sign In or Register to comment.