Why Israelis don't trust Palestinians
yosi
NYC Posts: 3,069
This was a mistake. I shouldn't have put this up. People on these threads just don't seem able to have a reasoned debate about Israel/Palestine. If you want to think that Israel is somehow Nazi Germany reborn then you're so far out there that there's no reasoning with you. Anyone interested in a sober, reasoned, debate about this issue please I'd love to hear from you.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEApSnFPIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8yKFKao0sI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wnJ2UPpea4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO28p-yaTVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kem1ajIKv1k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJgbj9lII4
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
This is exactly why I said I wasn't interested in a game of who suffered more. Why can't we just have a reasoned discussion?
maybe you could answer me since you've avoided it several times
what more can the Palestinians give up to appease Israel, the occupier, to get peace?
you said not resort to terrorism (and then i showed you how Israel locks up nonviolent protesters without charge or trial)
it's not a game to show who has suffered more, it is videos showing who is occupying and who is reacting.
you want Palestinians to act peacefully. they do and still get thrown in jail or shot.
you act like it's their fault because Israelis are scared of them reacting to Israel's brutal occupation?
maybe if Israel didn't do the things in the video i posted Palestinians wouldn't do the things you posted in the video in your op which you took out.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Just because some Palestinians use non-violence it doesn't mean that violence has stopped. It hasn't. I wish that all the Palestinians would adopt the non-violence of the people in the videos you posted. That just isn't what's happening on the ground. And yes, I believe that people are responsible for their actions, so yes I think that it is Palestinians' fault that Israelis are scared shitless of them, because they did not have to choose to create a culture that produced wave after wave of terrorist killers. As you have shown there were other non-violent alternative means of resistance, and had they resorted to these instead, and devoted more of their energies to building a functioning civil society and functioning, non-corrupt institutions, then Oslo might have succeeded and they would already have a state.
so, Israeli's are scared of the Palesitinians so they uproot their olive tree grooves and attack them when they protest non violently and THEN the IDF throws a smoke grenade inside of the ambulance that comes to take the injured Palestinians away....and they do this all because they are scared of them?
when settlers in Tel Rumeida and elsewhere throw stones at Palestinian kids and women while the IDF just stands there doing nothing this is all because they are scared of the Palestinians?
Israel steals 80% of the water and denies food, medicine and lots of other things to starve the Palestinians....because they are scared of them?
that doesn't make much sense and is if this happened to anyone else they would react. i can guarantee you if Mexico did this i California and Texas there would be a pretty big reaction.
your defense is like a bully who takes kids lunch money by force. the bully demands money from 1 kid and starts shoving him, the kid still says no. the bully starts to punch him, the kid reacts and punches back. the bully now kicks the shit out of the kid and everyone pats him on the back and says how he HAD to beat the shit out of the kid, if only he had just given him the money and not fought back to his aggression it would have never have happened so therefor it's all his fault for hitting the bully. can the bully say he didn't know if the kid would stab him or shoot him so he HAD to beat the shit out of him?
you can't be the bully and victim at the same time
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Look we aren't going to agree, but one more time most Israelis want to make peace, and want to end the occupation. They believe that they tried very hard to do that, and they would still be willing to try again, but it will be difficult at this point to get them to trust the Palestinians enough to ease up, and the fact that Palestinian violence has never stopped, and that the Palestinian culture seems to support the violence (this is from an Israeli perspective) by lionizing suicide bombers as heroes, doesn't help in making Israelis feel secure enough to trust the Palestinians. Look, when Ehud Olmert was elected as Prime Minister of Israel his platform hinged on disengaging from the West Bank the same way Israel disengaged from Gaza. He was elected on that platform because Israelis just wanted to be done with the Palestinians, to get out of the West Bank, end the occupation, and hopefully never have to deal with the Palestinians ever again. The reason this didn't happen is because all of a sudden Israelis turned around and found that rockets were raining down on Israel from Gaza, and they were afraid that the same thing would happen in the West Bank, only in the West Bank it'd be worse cause the rockets would be hitting Tel Aviv, the population and economic capital of the country, and on the only international airport in the country, instead of on a small town in the desert. That would literally be crippling to the Israeli economy. So they decided that a disengagement from the West Bank just couldn't happen because it represented too much of a security risk. And all of this goes back to the rockets from Gaza. If there hadn't been any violence directed at Israel after they pulled out of Gaza, Israel was gearing up for the much more difficult task of pulling out of the West Bank. But there was violence, and that scuttled everything. Point is Israelis don't see themselves as the bully. From the Israeli point of view they're the bigger kid for sure, but they'd like to leave well enough alone, except that the littler kid keeps throwing rocks at him. If the other kid would stop throwing rocks the big kid would feel safe enough to back off without worrying that the minute he does he's going to get beaned in the head.
are you seriously trying to pretend to have a reasonable discussion with that title? who are you kidding?
I'm not kidding anyone. Who are you kidding? From chatting with most of the people on this thread it seems pretty clear that you guys don't have any idea why Israelis would be afraid of the Palestinians, because you assume there is only one aggressor in this conflict. My original post in this thread was an attempt to get people to realize that Israelis have been traumatized just like the Palestinians have, but almost immediately the thread turned into a pissing match about who was the greater victim, which is not a discussion I want to have because it is entirely pointless. So I deleted the original post.
Yeah, it can be addicting, which is weird because it is also so infuriating when no matter how many times you say something people just read into your words what they want to and ignore what you are actually saying. Oh well, maybe I can find a 12 step program for people addicted to arguments that never end.
Perhaps, but then reality has a nasty habit of raising it''s head, such as in the following way:
Norman Finkelstein - 'Beyond Chutzpah - On The Misuse of Anti-Semitism and The Abuse of History'.
'When Israel attacked Lebanon in in June 1982 in order to "safeguard the occupation of the West bank" (Yehoshafat Harkabi's phrase), the popularity ratings of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Prime Minister Begin soared, while more than 80 percent of Israeli's held the invasion to be justified. When Israel's battering of Beirut in August 1982 reached new heights of savagery, more than half of Israeli's still supported the begin-Sharon government, while more than 80 percent still supported the invasion - which in the end, left up to twenty thousand Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all civilians, dead, and which the U.N General Assembly condemned by a vote of 143 to 2 (United States and Israel) for inflicting "severe damage on civilian Palestinians, including heavy losses of human lives, intolerable sufferings and massive material destruction." Only when the costs of the Lebanon aggression proved too onerous - initially, from the worldwide outcry against the Sabra and Shatila massacres and, later, from the escalating military casualties - did Israeli's turn against it.
When Israel's violent repression of the first Intifada reached new heights of brutality in 1989, more than half of all Israeli's supported the deployment of yet "stronger measures" to quell the largely nonviolent civil revolt (only one in four supported any lessening of the repression), while "an overwhelming 72 percent...saw no contradiction between the army's handling of the uprising and 'the nation's democratic values.'"
Operation Defensive shield (March - April 2002), although wreaking devastation on Palestinian society and culminating in the commission by Israeli forces of "serious violations" of humanitarian law and "war crimes" in Jenin and Nablus, was supported by fully 90 percent of Israeli's.
Beyond the emotional support that Israeli's have lent to crimes of state, it bears emphasis that Israel relies on a citizen army to implement policy: the collective responsibility of the Israeli people accordingly runs much deeper than "moral complicity." Finally, Israel couldn't commit such crimes without unconditional political and economic support from the United States, and it's the likes of Dershowitz who, through shameless apologetics and brazen distortions, crucially facilitate this unconditional support. What if Dershowitz's home were subject to the "benign form of collective accountability" he urges for Palestinians?'
There was an interesting quote in the NY Times Magazine this past weekend that bears mentioning here.
"Not only can the past never really be erased; it co-exists, in cyberspace, with the present, and an important type of context is destroyed. This is one reason that intellectual inflexibility has become such a hallmark of modern political discourse, and why, so often, no distinction is recognized between hypocrisy and changing your mind." --Jonathan Dee, NYTimes
Much has changed since many of these events took place. Even Bibi Netanyahu now publicly accepts that a Palestinian State should exist next to Israel, which I certainly never thought he would do. The only example that is really relevant to today's reality is Defensive Shield in 2002, but of course Finkelstein neglects to mention the immense wave of terrorism that prompted this operation.