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Attenuator for tube amps

reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
edited March 2010 in Musicians and Gearheads
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ATTENUATOR-FOR-AM ... 255813a756

does anybody use a Attenuator for their tube amp?..not sure if the above is just a simple version of one becasue ive seen some for ridiculas amounts. Do they work?..are they worth it?

i have a the problem of drowning my band out with my 30 watt class a 2x12 when its on volume 1!...i don't want to lose the tone quality but want to be kind to my bandmates :)

please let me know if you use one
leeds 26/08/06....electric
paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

the legend , nigel tufnell
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Comments

  • mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Posts: 6,395
    That box is used in the effects loop, which is basically like turning your master volume all the way up and then controlling the actual loudness with the preamp/gain volume.

    If you want to really get the tubes working, but not have too much volume, you would need something like a THD Hot Plate, Marshall Power Brake, or Weber Mass/MiniMass attenuator. Those units take the output of your amp, and dissipate a portion of the electric current that would otherwise go into your speakers. That way, everything inside your amp is cranked up, but the speakers aren't seeing all of that wattage.

    The other option is to use an isolation cabinet, where the speaker is fully enclosed, with a mic to send the sound to the mixer. These are really popular for recording at home (if you've got family, roommates, or close neighbors) but have been used a bit on stage. I know Randall was making one a while ago... You could just swap a good speaker into that box, throw a Shure SM57 or something like that in the box, and you're off.

    Either way, you get the tone without the overall loudness. Those cheap eBay boxes have been around for years, and while I've never played one to know, the electronic theory says the tubes just aren't cooking like the ad promises.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
  • xtremehardy388xtremehardy388 Posts: 2,759
    This is the exact thing a friend of mine has. It sounds awesome and works GREAT. Highly recommend it if you don't want to shell out for a Hot Plate. However, hot plates are probably the best (but most expensive) way to go, as MIG said. I do know, though, that the tubes were cooking on the Hod Rod Deluxe, when the volume box was used. Great tone (but it's hard to get a bad tone out of a HRD.
    Grand Rapids '04, Detroit '06
    JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
    "Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    i have a thd hotplate that i have used on my '74 marshall jmp. i have actually had 2 of these amps, one was a 100 watt superlead and the other was a 50 watt lead. i used the hotplate on both and even with it on -12 dbs the 100 watter was waaay too loud so i sold it. my hotplate, besides my amp and guitars is the most essential piece in my rig. i think i paid $350 for it brand new, marshall power brakes were going for $700 so i went with the hotplate...i run my amp very hot, volume one on 7 and volume 2 on 5 and we play venues that hold anywhere from 400-1000 people. i set the hotplate on -8 dbs and it is the perfect volume control for me. i use that setting for gigs and for band practice. its really weird, it seems louder at shows than it does at practice...and practice is in a very very confined space... occasionally i will get a sound engineer complaining that it is too loud, so rather than messing with my rig i just turn my cabinet slightly to one side or control things with my guitar volume and then it is not blowing out the soundguy. if we play outdoor shows i play it at -4 dbs or do not use the hotplate at all. the hotplate was the best investment i have ever made because without it, all of these vintage tube amps that lack master volumes and effects loops would be useless today unless you are playing arenas...

    as far as the original question about that thing on ebay, i always say you get what you pay for. i would not risk ruining one of my vintage amps on a $20 piece of equipment, i would use what i know is going to work, and i know from experience that my thd hotplate works as it should and does what it says its going to do.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    thanks for the reply fellas...i'm gonna have a look around :)
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    sorry to be thick but where would i put a hot plate when it comes to a combo?
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    reaching hands wrote:
    sorry to be thick but where would i put a hot plate when it comes to a combo?
    no worries, you are not being thick. we all had the same questions when we were starting out with things like this. your combo should have a cable coming out of the back of the amp that plugs into the speaker input. unplug that cable and plug it in to the input (from amp input) on the back of the hotplate. then get another speaker cable and plug it into the "speaker out" jack on the hotplate and into the amp's "speaker"input. it is impossible to mess it up.

    by the way, it is very important that you look at your ohms setting on your amp and get the appropriate hotplate. i use a 4x12 cabinet with my marshalls at 16 ohms so i bought the 16 ohms hotplate. any local amp tech should be able to help you find which one you would need to get. don't get the wrong one and toast your amp...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    cheers man..i thought it would be done that way but thought i'd ask those in know :)

    yeah need to look at the ohms.

    wish i had a deep pot of spare cash...time to save and keep alert on ebay at the same time!

    can't help but sometimes think as much of an amazing dirt cheap find my laney vc was i sometimes wish i had a head and cab set up...easier to carry things in bits rather than 29 kilos of bulkiness!..so tempted to save further for a tiny terror and cab for smaller rehearsal space but i guess the thd will make me think again

    cheers
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    just an update..

    i've ordered a weber minimass 50. should be with me in a week or two..can't wait :)

    thd's went up in price again and i thought nuts to it
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    reaching hands wrote:
    cheers man..i thought it would be done that way but thought i'd ask those in know :)

    yeah need to look at the ohms.

    wish i had a deep pot of spare cash...time to save and keep alert on ebay at the same time!

    can't help but sometimes think as much of an amazing dirt cheap find my laney vc was i sometimes wish i had a head and cab set up...easier to carry things in bits rather than 29 kilos of bulkiness!..so tempted to save further for a tiny terror and cab for smaller rehearsal space but i guess the thd will make me think again

    cheers
    Check out the new Jet City amps.. Definitley look interesting... Also, Egnater Rebel 30 looks like a sweet head as well!
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Posts: 6,395
    reaching hands wrote:
    i've ordered a weber minimass 50. should be with me in a week or two..can't wait :)


    Honestly, if I were to buy an attenuator, I'd probably buy the Weber. It's mechanically similar to a speaker, so it reacts the same way. I've heard complaints about the Hot Plate/Power Brake method affecting tone in weird ways... all they are is a heat-sink. The Weber Mass and MiniMass are a speaker coil with no cone, so it "absorbs" wattage from the amp's output in a way that is pretty much the same as a speaker would. And it helps that I'm a repeat Weber customer on the speaker end of things already... his stuff is highly recommended!

    Cheers, and let us know how it treats you!
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    mccreadyisgod wrote:
    reaching hands wrote:
    i've ordered a weber minimass 50. should be with me in a week or two..can't wait :)


    Honestly, if I were to buy an attenuator, I'd probably buy the Weber. It's mechanically similar to a speaker, so it reacts the same way. I've heard complaints about the Hot Plate/Power Brake method affecting tone in weird ways... all they are is a heat-sink. The Weber Mass and MiniMass are a speaker coil with no cone, so it "absorbs" wattage from the amp's output in a way that is pretty much the same as a speaker would. And it helps that I'm a repeat Weber customer on the speaker end of things already... his stuff is highly recommended!

    Cheers, and let us know how it treats you!

    cheers man. they seem to have more great reviews than the mixed ones of a hotplate..plus they look pretty cool aswell.

    also on the gear front i've just agreed to buy a Laney Lionheart L20 head and cab at a really decent price off an old friend so it should all sound pretty sweet.
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    reaching hands wrote:
    just an update..

    i've ordered a weber minimass 50. should be with me in a week or two..can't wait :)

    thd's went up in price again and i thought nuts to it
    just a quick question, with the mini mass it only has one output to the cab. how can you power a marshall full stack with one output? i was thinkng of buying one but i saw that and i am not convinced it would work for me since i do not have powered cabs...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    reaching hands wrote:
    just an update..

    i've ordered a weber minimass 50. should be with me in a week or two..can't wait :)

    thd's went up in price again and i thought nuts to it
    just a quick question, with the mini mass it only has one output to the cab. how can you power a marshall full stack with one output? i was thinkng of buying one but i saw that and i am not convinced it would work for me since i do not have powered cabs...

    hmm good question. you can email them, they answer really quick for busy guys

    http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm

    they have a pretty big range and not all of it completly clear to me ;) does MIG know?
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    oh i figured it out, i would need the regular MASS to run a full stack...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Posts: 6,395
    reaching hands wrote:
    does MIG know?


    I'd be asking the proverbial stupid question....

    If you need a full stack, why do you need an attenuator?
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    mccreadyisgod wrote:
    reaching hands wrote:
    does MIG know?


    I'd be asking the proverbial stupid question....

    If you need a full stack, why do you need an attenuator?

    :)
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    oh i figured it out, i would need the regular MASS to run a full stack...

    ahh..having a closer look at the range i can see that now
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    mccreadyisgod wrote:
    reaching hands wrote:
    does MIG know?


    I'd be asking the proverbial stupid question....

    If you need a full stack, why do you need an attenuator?
    its not a stupid question, when we play big venues or outdoor shows we bring our full stacks. i run my amp really hot to get that vintage marshall power tube distortion and in order to mike the cabs and make it easier for the sound guy to manage i have to have some sort of volume control.. for most of our shows our crowds are between 300 and 500 so the half stack and hotplate is sufficient.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Posts: 6,395
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    mccreadyisgod wrote:
    reaching hands wrote:
    does MIG know?


    I'd be asking the proverbial stupid question....

    If you need a full stack, why do you need an attenuator?
    its not a stupid question, when we play big venues or outdoor shows we bring our full stacks. i run my amp really hot to get that vintage marshall power tube distortion and in order to mike the cabs and make it easier for the sound guy to manage i have to have some sort of volume control.. for most of our shows our crowds are between 300 and 500 so the half stack and hotplate is sufficient.


    Well, as a guy who plays guitar AND is a sound guy, I'm still a little stumped. If you need the volume of a full-stack, then you don't need an attenuator. If you need more tube saturation at lower volumes, you don't need the full stack. If you want the LOOK of a full stack, then plug in the top cab and use the bottom as a booster/backup cab. But adding speakers just adds volume, and an attenuator is meant to reduce volume, so it seems like a net zero to me.

    By the way, with most modern sound systems, any tube amp over 50 watts is just too much. If the venue is bigger than 50 watts will fill, the mic and PA will make up for that. If you're playing without mic'ing the amp, it's probably in a club with less than 100 people. There's this outdated wisdom that says a bigger venue needs a bigger amp, but that's bunk. I've worked with artists playing arena shows whose REAL amp was a Fender Blues Jr hidden behind a Soldano half-stack, and Keith Richards plays stadium gigs with a 5-watt vintage Fender Champ.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    ^^My dad's band used to have empty Marshall base cabs. Had the look of a full stack, but still only had four speakers.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Posts: 6,395
    I worked with a band once (a band you've all heard of, although I don't imagine many of us are fans) who had a wall of guitar and bass cabs... Marshall 4x12 cabs three high, with Marshall heads on top, and Ampeg 8x10 cabs two high, with SVT heads on top. Turns out, they're all stage props. No speakers in the cabs, no amplifier in the heads. There was a jewel light wired in each head, so it looked right, but not an amp to be found on-stage. They had their amps off-stage, wired to speaker cabs that were enclosed in special isolation cabinets with mics. Sounded amazing.

    Also reminds me of a Weezer tour years back when the guitars and bass went through rackmount Line 6 Pod Pro's, and the entire band was on in-ear monitors. The only sound on stage was the drumkit and vocals. Great sound in the house.

    Compare that to the band I engineered a few months back who had a lead guitar player with a Marshall full-stack 3 feet behind him (and his vocal mic) cranked up. I killed the mic on his guitar amp; guitar was still too loud. Killed his vocal mic; still too loud. Turned the band up as much as the PA would allow; guitar was still too loud. Go figure.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    I saw Chris Cornell, no amps onstage, everyone playing through in-ear monitors. I BELIEVE the drums were 'caged'... Not only did it sound amazing, it was a really really clean look onstage.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    so...i got my mini mass yesterday and used it for rehearsal last night

    its a brilliant unit......managed to crank my amp and not kill anybody!, it really tightened up my tone more than i could imagine and the sustain i got was awesome. it will take some getting used to, as i've been used to being so over loud but hey, i'm on the right track :)

    after a few hours at cranked levels..the unit was only slightly warm, so that bodes very well.

    the treble boost is a great feature too.

    So for half the price of a thd i got a handmade unit from the US and didn't have to pay taxes/custom charges

    UP YOURS THD :D
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    reaching hands wrote:
    so...i got my mini mass yesterday and used it for rehearsal last night

    its a brilliant unit......managed to crank my amp and not kill anybody!, it really tightened up my tone more than i could imagine and the sustain i got was awesome. it will take some getting used to, as i've been used to being so over loud but hey, i'm on the right track :)

    after a few hours at cranked levels..the unit was only slightly warm, so that bodes very well.

    the treble boost is a great feature too.

    So for half the price of a thd i got a handmade unit from the US and didn't have to pay taxes/custom charges

    UP YOURS THD :D
    LOL at your last sentence.., glad you like the unit. yep, you know it is doing its job when it is a little warm. i use the treble boost on my thd as well, to my ears it gets a little muddy if you knock it down too many dbs..it sounds like its going to be an integral part of your sound from now on. i always like when people find things that work well for them. it reminds me of when i was figuring things out and how excited i used to get.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Ok now you guys have me tempted. My Traynor 80 watt is simply TOO LOUD for most uses. It's a combo though, so I'm not sure whether or not I could connect it or not?
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    keeponrockin wrote:
    Ok now you guys have me tempted. My Traynor 80 watt is simply TOO LOUD for most uses. It's a combo though, so I'm not sure whether or not I could connect it or not?
    sure you can. your amp section has a cable connecting into an input for the speakers of youramp. all you do is unplug that and plug it into the attenuator and run a second cable from the attenuator to that speaker input.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    reaching hands wrote:
    so...i got my mini mass yesterday and used it for rehearsal last night

    its a brilliant unit......managed to crank my amp and not kill anybody!, it really tightened up my tone more than i could imagine and the sustain i got was awesome. it will take some getting used to, as i've been used to being so over loud but hey, i'm on the right track :)

    after a few hours at cranked levels..the unit was only slightly warm, so that bodes very well.

    the treble boost is a great feature too.

    So for half the price of a thd i got a handmade unit from the US and didn't have to pay taxes/custom charges

    UP YOURS THD :D
    LOL at your last sentence.., glad you like the unit. yep, you know it is doing its job when it is a little warm. i use the treble boost on my thd as well, to my ears it gets a little muddy if you knock it down too many dbs..it sounds like its going to be an integral part of your sound from now on. i always like when people find things that work well for them. it reminds me of when i was figuring things out and how excited i used to get.

    yeah its gonna be very integral to my set up...getting my new amp (laney lionheart) tomorrow so it'l be different sounding again...its exciting though and i'm finally feel like i know what i'm talking about! haha
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Stupid question.

    My amp is 2 channel, 80 watts, with a master volume. I want the power amp distortion on the dirty channel, but I would also like to maintain the amps clean tone for, well, clean work. Is this possible?
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Also, is it worth it on a master volume amp? I've heard yes and no...
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • reaching handsreaching hands Posts: 370
    keeponrockin wrote:
    Also, is it worth it on a master volume amp? I've heard yes and no...

    i'm not too sure..my laney's are class a and don't have a master volume so at volume two without my minimass i was cutting through a mesa rectifier, drums and bass and that wasn't working the valves at all. it was just too loud and not getting the best out of the power tubes. now i can get some nice tight overdriven crunch without affecting the tone response.

    is the traynor full tube? (im not too up on them?). if it is then you should be able to achieve what you want. my vc30 doesn't start breaking up until vol.9 on the clean so i can still get some nice headroom and then switch the gain on and get some creamy sustain
    leeds 26/08/06....electric
    paris 11/09/06.....crushed...but estatic
    wembley 18/06/07.....oh yes

    'listen...you can hear the sustain...you just hold that note and you can go get a bite whilst its still going'

    the legend , nigel tufnell
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