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Fox asks: $600mil in aide to Haiti, is money the answer?

Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
edited January 2010 in A Moving Train
tom ridge was talking about what a violent place it is....
don't compete; coexist

what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
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Comments

  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    So.... Since it's a place with violence and poverty issues, we shouldn't give them aid?

    Money wont fix everything, but I dont see who's claiming that anyway. Moral imperative is what's driving this, and I can't see why that should be a problem. The "they're wasting our tax dollars" crowd should seriously just shut up on this. Those aid dollars doesnt make a dent in your or the state's wallet.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    right, i mean, we already give them our tax dollars.... :roll:

    fox must not have a lot going on today. i remember them saying the same thing about katrina, questioning whether or not money was the best way to help. my question to them would be "where is the funding for logistical support, emergency response like search and rescue, medical care, and bringing in blood, food, and water going to come from?" its not like the haitians have thousands of dollars to spend on themselves or anything. hell yes money will help, what else is going to pay for that bottled water, medical supplies, food, or gas to run the heavy equipment to move debris and help dig survivors out? we are a thousand miles away and we can't get there to help by ourselves as individuals, so donating that money will help fund the rescue effort and the recovery of the country.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Plus I think the important thing to remember is that when countries pledge money in cases like this its not like someone from the US state department is flying a dude over with a duffel bag full of cash to hand out to people. That money is being used to pay for supplies and people on the ground and that sort of thing. I know for Canada's case when they say they are pledging X millions of dollars some of that is going to pay for the military Disaster Emergency Response Team (DART). I would imagine it is the same thing in the US since that Air Craft Carrier isn't going to run without fuel and food which cost money.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Plus I think the important thing to remember is that when countries pledge money in cases like this its not like someone from the US state department is flying a dude over with a duffel bag full of cash to hand out to people. That money is being used to pay for supplies and people on the ground and that sort of thing. I know for Canada's case when they say they are pledging X millions of dollars some of that is going to pay for the military Disaster Emergency Response Team (DART). I would imagine it is the same thing in the US since that Air Craft Carrier isn't going to run without fuel and food which cost money.
    ...
    Why is this such a difficult concept for some people to grasp?
    Like you said, they don't need a five dollar bill when there is no place to spend it... right?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    It is Katrina part 2, just not on US soil.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    its not like someone from the US state department is flying a dude over with a duffel bag full of cash to hand out to people.

    i can totally picture this...its a funny visual.. :D
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • darthvedder81darthvedder81 Posts: 688
    They need our help now but they also need to help themselves once they get things back in order. This perpetual aid we've been giving them (long before the earthquake) isn't helping.
    So this life is sacrifice...
    6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
  • supersonicyearssupersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    They need our help now but they also need to help themselves once they get things back in order. This perpetual aid we've been giving them (long before the earthquake) isn't helping.
    It isn't helping because the money isn't going to help the people. Their corrupt government is taking it. Talk to the Hatians that have come to this country about it. They will tell you. Look at that palace or what was a palace :lol: . while the people around it are living in slums. If our government is going to give them money we need to make sure it is going to help the people, not provide their corrupt government with luxuries.
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    TheBeach wrote:
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    They need our help now but they also need to help themselves once they get things back in order. This perpetual aid we've been giving them (long before the earthquake) isn't helping.
    It isn't helping because the money isn't going to help the people. Their corrupt government is taking it. Talk to the Hatians that have come to this country about it. They will tell you. Look at that palace or what was a palace :lol: . while the people around it are living in slums. If our government is going to give them money we need to make sure it is going to help the people, not provide their corrupt government with luxuries.

    Funny that you say that because that corrupt government that you speak we the US help put in place.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    TheBeach wrote:
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    They need our help now but they also need to help themselves once they get things back in order. This perpetual aid we've been giving them (long before the earthquake) isn't helping.
    It isn't helping because the money isn't going to help the people. Their corrupt government is taking it. Talk to the Hatians that have come to this country about it. They will tell you. Look at that palace or what was a palace :lol: . while the people around it are living in slums. If our government is going to give them money we need to make sure it is going to help the people, not provide their corrupt government with luxuries.

    This is from Democracy Now which reports on How Western Domination Has Undermined Haiti’s Ability to Recover from Natural Devastation. You may get a better idea as to why Haiti was in the condition it is before the earthquake, don't think for a minute this ALL due to corrupt Haitian government which is no more currupt than our own US government. Our dirty hands are ALL over Haiti and it matters none which party was in office, give the video a watch.

    AMY GOODMAN: Let’s talk about this major catastrophe, this devastation. Now, of course, it’s a natural catastrophe, but can you talk about how this catastrophe fits into Haiti? The level of destruction we’re seeing today is not just about nature.


    KIM IVES: No, not at all. In fact, this earthquake was preceded by a political and economic earthquake with an epicenter 2,000 miles north of here, in Washington, DC, over the past twenty-four years.


    We can say, first of all, there was the case of the two coups d’états held in the space of thirteen years, in ’91 and 2004, which were backed by the United States. They put in their own client regimes, which the Haitian people chased out of power. But these coups d’états and subsequent occupations, foreign military occupations, in a country whose constitution forbids that, were fundamentally destructive, not just to the national government and its national programs, but also to the local governments or the parliaments, the mayors’ offices and also the local assemblies, which would elect a permanent electoral council. That permanent electoral council has never been made—it’s a provisional—and hence Préval, and just before the earthquake, was running roughshod over popular democracy by putting his own electoral council in place, provisional, and they were bringing him and his party to domination of the political scene.


    AMY GOODMAN: And just to be clear, when you talk about the two coups, the one in 1991, the one in 2004, both were of them were the—led to the ouster of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.


    KIM IVES: Correct.


    AMY GOODMAN: And you talked about US involvement with those.


    KIM IVES: Right. And Aristide, in both cases, was taken from Haiti, essentially by US forces, both times. The first time he ended up spending it in Washington, but now he’s presently in South Africa, where he’s been for these past six years.


    But along with this political—these political earthquakes carried out by Washington were the economic earthquakes, the US policy that they wanted to see in place, because Aristide’s government had a fundamentally nationalist orientation, which was looking to build the national self-sufficiency of the country, but Washington would have none of it. They wanted the nine principal state publicly owned industries privatized, to be sold to US and foreign investors.


    So, about twelve years ago under the first administration of René Préval, they privatized the Minoterie d’Haiti and Ciment d’Haiti, the flour mill, the state flour mill, and the state cement company. Now, for flour, obviously, you have a hungry, needy population. You can imagine if the state had a robust flour mill where it could distribute flour to the people so they could have bread. That was sold to a company of which Henry Kissinger was a board member. And very quickly, that flour mill was closed. Haiti now has no flour mill, not private or public.


    AMY GOODMAN: Where does it get its flour? This is the poorest country in the western hemisphere.


    KIM IVES: It has to import it, and a lot of it is coming from the United States.


    The other one is—and even more ironic, Amy—is the cement factory. Here is a country which is mostly made of limestone, geologically, and that is the foundation of cement. It is a country which absolutely should and could have a cement company, and did, but it was again privatized and immediately shut down. And they began using the docks of the cement company for importing cement. So when we drive around this country and we see the thousands of cement buildings which are pancaked or collapsed, this is a country which is going to need millions and millions of tons of cement, and it’s going to have to now import all of that cement, rather than being able to produce it itself. It could be and should be an exporter of cement, not an importer.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • supersonicyearssupersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    g under p wrote:
    TheBeach wrote:
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    They need our help now but they also need to help themselves once they get things back in order. This perpetual aid we've been giving them (long before the earthquake) isn't helping.
    It isn't helping because the money isn't going to help the people. Their corrupt government is taking it. Talk to the Hatians that have come to this country about it. They will tell you. Look at that palace or what was a palace :lol: . while the people around it are living in slums. If our government is going to give them money we need to make sure it is going to help the people, not provide their corrupt government with luxuries.

    Funny that you say that because that corrupt government that you speak we the US help put in place.

    Peace

    I wonder if Haitian government is trying to call off further search and rescue's so that they don't have to spend any more of the aid on the teams that are there doing it.
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    TheBeach wrote:

    I wonder if Haitian government is trying to call off further search and rescue's so that they don't have to spend any more of the aid on the teams that are there doing it.
    i do not know what version of the truth you are paying attention to, but as far as the haitian government is concerned, it is in absentia. there is no haitian government. their facilities are destroyed and their leader is in exile.. you can not tell me that the haitian government is stealing the millions of dollars in aid....
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    TheBeach wrote:
    g under p wrote:
    TheBeach wrote:
    It isn't helping because the money isn't going to help the people. Their corrupt government is taking it. Talk to the Hatians that have come to this country about it. They will tell you. Look at that palace or what was a palace :lol: . while the people around it are living in slums. If our government is going to give them money we need to make sure it is going to help the people, not provide their corrupt government with luxuries.

    Funny that you say that because that corrupt government that you speak we the US help put in place.

    Peace

    I wonder if Haitian government is trying to call off further search and rescue's so that they don't have to spend any more of the aid on the teams that are there doing it.

    They are even situations in this devastation where the Haitian people aren't the first priority....take a look at this video...Bottled Water Supplies in Port-au-Prince Airport Being Distributed…to US Embassy
    AMY GOODMAN: So you have, for the survivors, the fear of this happening again, and you also have the fact that so many of them have not gotten aid, have not gotten water, have not gotten food. In fact, yesterday, just before we left Haiti, we were walking around the airport, where there are huge pallets of aid, including medical supplies, food and water, sitting in the fields all over the tarmac.


    AMY GOODMAN: Everywhere we have traveled, people have asked, “Where is the aid?” Well, a lot of it appears to be here, right here at the Port-au-Prince airport. People ask for water. They ask for food. And we see many, many pallets, thousands of bottles of water. We see some being loaded now onto a truck. But people are asking, “Where is it? Why isn’t it coming to us faster?” Most people haven’t gotten it at all. Let’s see where this water is going.


    So, where is the water going?


    HAITIAN WORKER: US embassy.


    AMY GOODMAN: To the US embassy.


    HAITIAN WORKER: Yes, ma’am.


    AMY GOODMAN: Here in Port-au-Prince?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Yes.


    AMY GOODMAN: A lot of people have been asking, where is the water for the people? There are thousands and thousands of bottles.


    HAITIAN WORKER: I don’t know.


    AMY GOODMAN: Where do you live?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Ah?


    AMY GOODMAN: Where do you live?


    HAITIAN WORKER: I’m living in Port-au-Prince.


    AMY GOODMAN: Do you have questions like that?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Ah?


    AMY GOODMAN: Do you have questions like, where is the aid?


    HAITIAN WORKER: No.


    AMY GOODMAN: Where is the water?


    HAITIAN WORKER: No.


    AMY GOODMAN: Why?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Because I’m working for US embassy. I’m coming to pick up the waters, to put them for—to US embassy.


    AMY GOODMAN: And who gets it at the embassy?


    HAITIAN WORKER: In Taba.


    AMY GOODMAN: Ah, in Taba. And who gets to drink this water?


    HAITIAN WORKER: I don’t know.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • cajunkiwicajunkiwi Posts: 984
    TheBeach wrote:
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    They need our help now but they also need to help themselves once they get things back in order. This perpetual aid we've been giving them (long before the earthquake) isn't helping.
    It isn't helping because the money isn't going to help the people. Their corrupt government is taking it. Talk to the Hatians that have come to this country about it. They will tell you. Look at that palace or what was a palace :lol: . while the people around it are living in slums. If our government is going to give them money we need to make sure it is going to help the people, not provide their corrupt government with luxuries.

    Not sure if you saw CNN the other night or not, but there are a lot of supplies at the airport in Port-au-Prince that aren't being distributed to the people, and you can't really blame the Haitian government for that - from the looks of things, the U.S. military has them. That being said, it's not like they were hoarding them, per se - Sanjay Gupta walked right up and got medicine from them and took it back to a clinic without any problem at all. He talked to one of the soldiers there, and the guy was fairly vague as to why none of it is being distributed - it looked as if basically nobody was setting up a distribution system. The military was happy to hold onto the stuff, but wasn't planning on organizing distribution for it.

    As to the person who compared it to Katrina, as someone living in Louisiana who lived through Katrina (I was a triage volunteer at the makeshift LSU hospital for eight weeks after Katrina), I have to say I've thought that many times over the last few weeks. We'd have people donate tons of water, and it would be driven down to New Orleans and would then just sit there in the sun because nobody had come up with a distribution plan. The hospital at LSU was a mess because it was staffed by international volunteers and had no central overseer, so every night when one shift ended, the next shift would rearrange everything the way they were used to it - and I'm not talking about rearranging medicine on a shelf, I'm talking about moving pediatrics from one side of the room to the other. You can't blame a corrupt third world government for that mess - the blame falls on the shoulders of Bush, Nagin, and Blanco etc. Nagin and Blanco spent a LOT of time fighting each other after Katrina over who was going to take credit for any success - they were more interested in getting brown on their nose than saving the people trapped in the Convention Center.

    But did that stop - or should that have stopped - people from donating? No. Eventually people who weren't worried about their own ego being stroked stood up and got the work done and got the supplies where they needed to be, and lives were saved because of it. A few laws were broken along the way, because it was the only way to get anything done, but at the end of the day it got done and that's all that mattered. The money people donated has gone to rebuilding neighborhoods, and the food and clothing donated went directly to the victims (we had doctors in the hospital who would go 24+ hours without eating because they refused to eat - they wanted the food to go to the victims).

    So, you can blame the corrupt government all you want, but remember, four years ago New Orleans was a mess and the federal and state government played a large role in interfering with the recovery. I'm not in Haiti so I don't know how things are going down there, but if it's anything like post-Katrina New Orleans then it's probably a complete clusterfuck. It's going to take someone who doesn't care about their legacy standing up and rolling their sleeves up to get things done.
    And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    This is something a friend of mine said recently, which brings things into perspective: "Shame, in America: the homeless without shelter, children go to bed without eating, elderly go without needed meds, and mentally ill without treatment - yet we have a benefit for the people of Haiti on 12 TV stations."

    Just thought it was interesting, not to mention correct.

    We get labeled as Socialists for helping people in our own country out, but it's completely different helping another country when disaster strikes.
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    Well don't you know it's cool to help Haiti?
  • supersonicyearssupersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    g under p wrote:

    They are even situations in this devastation where the Haitian people aren't the first priority....take a look at this video...Bottled Water Supplies in Port-au-Prince Airport Being Distributed…to US Embassy
    AMY GOODMAN: So you have, for the survivors, the fear of this happening again, and you also have the fact that so many of them have not gotten aid, have not gotten water, have not gotten food. In fact, yesterday, just before we left Haiti, we were walking around the airport, where there are huge pallets of aid, including medical supplies, food and water, sitting in the fields all over the tarmac.


    AMY GOODMAN: Everywhere we have traveled, people have asked, “Where is the aid?” Well, a lot of it appears to be here, right here at the Port-au-Prince airport. People ask for water. They ask for food. And we see many, many pallets, thousands of bottles of water. We see some being loaded now onto a truck. But people are asking, “Where is it? Why isn’t it coming to us faster?” Most people haven’t gotten it at all. Let’s see where this water is going.


    So, where is the water going?


    HAITIAN WORKER: US embassy.


    AMY GOODMAN: To the US embassy.


    HAITIAN WORKER: Yes, ma’am.


    AMY GOODMAN: Here in Port-au-Prince?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Yes.


    AMY GOODMAN: A lot of people have been asking, where is the water for the people? There are thousands and thousands of bottles.


    HAITIAN WORKER: I don’t know.


    AMY GOODMAN: Where do you live?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Ah?


    AMY GOODMAN: Where do you live?


    HAITIAN WORKER: I’m living in Port-au-Prince.


    AMY GOODMAN: Do you have questions like that?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Ah?


    AMY GOODMAN: Do you have questions like, where is the aid?


    HAITIAN WORKER: No.


    AMY GOODMAN: Where is the water?


    HAITIAN WORKER: No.


    AMY GOODMAN: Why?


    HAITIAN WORKER: Because I’m working for US embassy. I’m coming to pick up the waters, to put them for—to US embassy.


    AMY GOODMAN: And who gets it at the embassy?


    HAITIAN WORKER: In Taba.


    AMY GOODMAN: Ah, in Taba. And who gets to drink this water?


    HAITIAN WORKER: I don’t know.

    Peace
    BTW Is the Red Cross doing anything over there?
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
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