For all of the guys out there who think you're so much more responsible than the women you condemn
yawn...
talk about a persecution complex.
So do you think you're more responsible than the women you condemn or don't you? And if you do, prove it. And if you don't, shut the fuck up.
If by "women I condemn" means your friend who let her prescription lapse, didn't re-enroll in the prescription plan, seemingly had sex without using a condom from the start, then yes, I am more responsible than her...
And I don't have to prove anything on a fucking internet message board... get over yourself.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
So do you think you're more responsible than the women you condemn or don't you? And if you do, prove it. And if you don't, shut the fuck up.
If by "women I condemn" means your friend who let her prescription lapse, didn't re-enroll in the prescription plan, seemingly had sex without using a condom from the start, then yes, I am more responsible than her...
And I don't have to prove anything on a fucking internet message board... get over yourself.
I'll happily get over myself as soon as those of you who talk so much shit about women's reproduction without having the slightest understanding of it get over yourselves. :roll:
reality is the current system sucks...reality is adults should know this and plan accordingly vs. sitting back a blaming the "system"...the "system" is what it is...
wow. what a sad, defeatist, apathetic attitude.
(but. ha. for certain the word EMPATHETIC would NOT be used to describe any part of your attitude that you have exhibited in this thread!!!)
So do you think you're more responsible than the women you condemn or don't you? And if you do, prove it. And if you don't, shut the fuck up.
If by "women I condemn" means your friend who let her prescription lapse, didn't re-enroll in the prescription plan, seemingly had sex without using a condom from the start, then yes, I am more responsible than her...
And I don't have to prove anything on a fucking internet message board... get over yourself.
I'll happily get over myself as soon as those of you who talk so much shit about women's reproduction without having the slightest understanding of it get over yourselves. :roll:
Who exactly is "talking so much shit about women's reproduction"?
We all agree the the insurance system sucks (which I thought was the point of this whole thread), and some of us chimed in about the person in question as adding to her problems by being somewhat irresponsible.
You keep bringing these straw men arguments about condemning women, when no one is doing that... Maybe it's because you work with the issue everyday, but like I said, it seems like you have a bad persecution problem about the whole thing.
Post edited by blackredyellow on
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I would be more sympathetic if this person had lost a their job and/or didn't have medical insurance but basically it sounds like she has been continually lazy and irresponsible.
underpaid. working poor. working in fields where they help others for a living and get paid shit for it... FUCK 'EM!
Who exactly is "talking so much shit about women's reproduction"?
We all agree the the insurance system sucks (which I thought was the point of this whole thread), and some of us chimed in about the person in question as adding to her problems by being somewhat irresponsible.
You keep bringing these straw men arguments about condemning women, when no one is doing that... Maybe it's because you work with the issue everyday, but like I said, it seems like you have a bad persecution problem about the whole thing.
Here's the source of my frustration:
Every single day I deal with women who are trying desperately to control their reproduction. Every single day I hear their stories and see, first-hand, the barriers they face. I spend hours and hours of my time trying to help women overcome these barriers.
And then every time I get on this message board there are a bunch of guys saying these barriers don't exist and these women are just irresponsible. (And they don't say the women "added to" their problems or are "somewhat" irresponsible; they say It's the woman's fault, case closed.) They complain about the problem (as in your other thread) but want no part in the solution. They act like they know enough about women's reproduction to judge these women. They judge even the most responsible of women and, in judging, imply that they are better than and know more than these women. They seldom suggest that they have anything to learn about or are interested in understanding the reality of women's experiences with reproduction. They seldom acknowledge that, when it comes down to it, men play only a very small role in controling reproduction and know much less than they purport to know about whether or not they were successful. But they go around saying they are responsible and successful at this endeavor, and that the women in question should be as responsible and successful at it as they are.
I started this thread to give another example of the obstacles in the path of women trying to obtain the contraception so many people here say is so easy to come by. Not to deflect or even address blame. But few people got the point and I just got more of the same tired blame-the-woman argument and seemingly no greater understanding. And that makes me sad. And frustrated. (Sorry if I was rude.)
It seems to me that both parties are at fault here and that both parties should pay for the pill. I know if I was in a similar situation with a lady friend that I would probably just pay for it myself but in order to do that a very important thing needs to happen called communication. Now, I don't know how much she has shared with this guy friend of hers, but if he knows nothing perhaps she could've mentioned something to him about needing some help in obtaining the pill and if she did and he was indifferent than that guy is a jerk and she probably shouldn't waste her time with him.
Having said that, I still tend to agree with most of the posters in this thread that some foresight should've been taken into account by both parties and if the guy has a problem with her demands perhaps he should be told to keep his pants on?
and my mistake, you feel your employer should have consulted you...my guess is you haven't been in the workforce very long...because reality is your employer tells you...they don't ask you...seriously, do you really think they are going to come in and say "hey, Scb where looking a changing insurance plans, can you look this over and tell us what you think?" "oh really, you don't like this plan, oh my, that's terrible, how can we make it better for you?"....reality, huh...?
reality is the current system sucks...reality is adults should know this and plan accordingly vs. sitting back a blaming the "system"...the "system" is what it is...
as for not having $50 bucks on hand...I'd be willing to bet many who claim they don't have $50 can find that money when they really want to...
as I see it and as I've stated...this young woman and her partner made some poor choices...she assumed she could waltz in to a pharmacy and have the Plan B pill given to her...sadly she learned that she may have to come up with a Plan C...
Well, because I'm a woman and because I run a reproductive health program, I do think I have a better view of the reality of women's reproductive lives than your general, random man. That's why I come on here and try to share that reality with people who might not have as much experience with it as I do. (For the record, I also come on here to learn from others who have a better view of the reality of things with which I have less experience.)
For instance, I frequently see people on this board (usually those who have never had to use birth control or who have been fortunate to have good access to it) going on and on about how easy birth control is to obtain, knowing nothing of the obstacles that women face. Well I spend much of my time helping women navigate those supposedly non-existant obstacles, so when people say they don't exist, I feel the need to vouch that they do. Like men who live in NYC and want to believe that all a woman has to do to get to to a doctor's appointment is jump in her car or on the subway or bus, but have absolutely no knowledge of the transportation issues faces by so many people in the rural areas of my state.
I've been in the workforce for 20 years, by the way. And I don't believe that they necessarily will consult us before changing our insurance plans; I believe that they SHOULD and the fact that they don't is part of our shitty system. And I do expect more of my employer, which tends to be held to a higher standard (which is why we work here to begin with).
Yes, reality is that the current system sucks. That's my point. And I think it's the people who sit around not trying to change it who are the irresponsible ones.
Yes, this woman made an assumption, based on the information she knew, that it would be easier to get Plan B. I don't think it was an unreasonable assumption, and I don't think she made poor choices. (I doubt that you or most anyone else would make better choices.)
well, for me, those who assume, don't plan, don't understand their own insurance and then play victim are the irresponsible ones...
I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
to be honest, birth control is easy as hell to obtain...Birth control is in nearly every supermarket, drug store, gas station...hell, one can pick up a big ol' box of birth control is at Costco...
And it's not that expensive...if the man refuses to wear a condom, don't fuck him...it's not that hard...
are condoms 100% effective...nope...only abstinence is...at the end of the day, when a man and a women have sex, they open themselves up to the chance of getting prego....plain and simple...
as for the "system", talk and complain and moan all you want, it's not changing (for the good) anytime soon...I guess that makes me a bad person for understanding this and planning accordingly...
reality is the current system sucks...reality is adults should know this and plan accordingly vs. sitting back a blaming the "system"...the "system" is what it is...
wow. what a sad, defeatist, apathetic attitude.
(but. ha. for certain the word EMPATHETIC would NOT be used to describe any part of your attitude that you have exhibited in this thread!!!)
well, for me, those who assume, don't plan, don't understand their own insurance and then play victim are the irresponsible ones...
I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
to be honest, birth control is easy as hell to obtain...Birth control is in nearly every supermarket, drug store, gas station...hell, one can pick up a big ol' box of birth control is at Costco...
And it's not that expensive...if the man refuses to wear a condom, don't fuck him...it's not that hard...
are condoms 100% effective...nope...only abstinence is...at the end of the day, when a man and a women have sex, they open themselves up to the chance of getting prego....plain and simple...
as for the "system", talk and complain and moan all you want, it's not changing (for the good) anytime soon...I guess that makes me a bad person for understanding this and planning accordingly...
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
there should be free, accessible, reliable birth control for everyone.
what joy can there be in being some of our single moms, who wake up every day knowing that they can't afford to raise their own child in a sustainable way. on top of that you have judgemental people who have no real clue as to their individual circumstances, automatically grouping them into the one category of losers/abusers of the system, and showing them no respect at all.
well, for me, those who assume, don't plan, don't understand their own insurance and then play victim are the irresponsible ones...
I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
to be honest, birth control is easy as hell to obtain...Birth control is in nearly every supermarket, drug store, gas station...hell, one can pick up a big ol' box of birth control is at Costco...
And it's not that expensive...if the man refuses to wear a condom, don't fuck him...it's not that hard...
are condoms 100% effective...nope...only abstinence is...at the end of the day, when a man and a women have sex, they open themselves up to the chance of getting prego....plain and simple...
as for the "system", talk and complain and moan all you want, it's not changing (for the good) anytime soon...I guess that makes me a bad person for understanding this and planning accordingly...
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
I guess I better stop fucking because I think condoms are a inexpensive and accessible form of birth control...
as for RELIABLE long-term b.c., your friend had that in place and let it lapse...so suddenly all men who disagree with your stance that your friend is somehow a victim of the system are sexist, ignorant bastards who need to bow down to your way of thinking...why does everyone have to be a victim in today's world...?
and what the hell is wrong with a man taking it upon himself to carry condoms and use them...? and what's wrong with a women demanding a man wear one if they are going to have sex...is it too simple to understand...?
I get the sense you dislike men...well, just so you know, and I would hope that you do, it takes two to make a baby...
there should be free, accessible, reliable birth control for everyone.
what joy can there be in being some of our single moms, who wake up every day knowing that they can't afford to raise their own child in a sustainable way. on top of that you have judgemental people who have no real clue as to their individual circumstances, automatically grouping them into the one category of losers/abusers of the system, and showing them no respect at all.
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
For someone who is always complaining about people judging, you sure as hell do a ton of it.
there should be free, accessible, reliable birth control for everyone.
what joy can there be in being some of our single moms, who wake up every day knowing that they can't afford to raise their own child in a sustainable way. on top of that you have judgemental people who have no real clue as to their individual circumstances, automatically grouping them into the one category of losers/abusers of the system, and showing them no respect at all.
don't forget about the single dads...
you're right, and of course i wouldn't forget about the single dads. it must be just as difficult for them. there's plenty of great single dads out there doing an amazing job.
would it be fair to say that single dads are not demonized by society in general, the same way single moms are though? how often do you hear of a single dad being labelled as a promiscious, lazy welfare queen. or king.
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
I guess I better stop fucking because I think condoms are a inexpensive and accessible form of birth control...
as for RELIABLE long-term b.c., your friend had that in place and let it lapse...so suddenly all men who disagree with your stance that your friend is somehow a victim of the system are sexist, ignorant bastards who need to bow down to your way of thinking...why does everyone have to be a victim in today's world...?
and what the hell is wrong with a man taking it upon himself to carry condoms and use them...? and what's wrong with a women demanding a man wear one if they are going to have sex...is it too simple to understand...?
I get the sense you dislike men...well, just so you know, and I would hope that you do, it takes two to make a baby...
Talk about twisting my words! :roll: There is nothing wrong with men carrying and using condoms or with women insisting men wear them, and I've supported condom use all along!
But it's ignorant to think (as so many men seem to) that responsible sexual health consists of nothing more than picking up a box of cheap condoms at the gas station. Responsible sexual health is much more complicated than that, and that's what I've been saying all along that I wish men would understand. (Wanting men to be educated, responsible, & non-judgemental absolutely does NOT equal to disliking men, by the way. :roll: )
Condoms are reliable enough (by most standards) for people who have sex once every 2 years, like the woman in my example. But for people who have sex more regularly than that, condoms alone aren't as reliable as you make them out to be. Therefore, they do not count as a reliable form of long term birth control.
So now that leaves us with other forms of more reliable birth control to assess how accessible they are, and this is where access is more complicated than you're willing to admit. (And, for the life of me, I don't know why you're so unwilling to admit it.)
I have a friend, for instance, who tried diligently for over 2 YEARS before she was able to get an IUD. Was she "responsible" in the meantime? Sure. But that's not the point. The point is that no one should have to do battle for 2 years to get an IUD. And she fought much harder, and was thankfully better educated about the topic, than most.
Every woman has her own unique, often complicated, situation & set of circumstances when it comes to sexual health. And when you and others suggest, just because the part you're willing to take responsibility for is easy, that you can therefore generalize & stereotype & judge the situations of others, I take offense to that.
It has nothing to do with being a victim or disliking men. It's all about disliking ignorant, sweeping, judgemental generalizations - and you'll note that I take this same position in threads where other groups of people are stereotyped as well.
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
For someone who is always complaining about people judging, you sure as hell do a ton of it.
Not really. I'm not judging him as a person. I'm judging his knowledge of a particular issue.
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
For someone who is always complaining about people judging, you sure as hell do a ton of it.
Not really. I'm not judging him as a person. I'm judging his knowledge of a particular issue.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
Condoms are reliable enough (by most standards) for people who have sex once every 2 years, like the woman in my example. But for people who have sex more regularly than that, condoms alone aren't as reliable as you make them out to be. Therefore, they do not count as a reliable form of long term birth control.
I'm just curious as to why you say they don't count as a reliable form of long term birth control. I've never really had someone discuss with me how birth control can be split into different categories like that.
Not really. I'm not judging him as a person. I'm judging his knowledge of a particular issue.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
Whoa, all this piling on scb has got to stop. I don't see her as 'hating on all men'. In fact, nothing in what she has said could really be construed in that fashion, and pretty much all she wrote has been accurate. I know for a fact that condoms are not as reliable as people think they are - I believe thay have around 85% reliability. They break, they slip, they get put on incorrectly, the male does not pull out immediately, etc.
From what I can tell, we're all mostly on the same side anyway.
And last I checked, I was a man.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
Not really. I'm not judging him as a person. I'm judging his knowledge of a particular issue.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
Whoa, all this piling on scb has got to stop. I don't see her as 'hating on all men'. In fact, nothing in what she has said could really be construed in that fashion, and pretty much all she wrote has been accurate. I know for a fact that condoms are not as reliable as people think they are - I believe thay have around 85% reliability. They break, they slip, they get put on incorrectly, the male does not pull out immediately, etc.
From what I can tell, we're all mostly on the same side anyway.
And last I checked, I was a man.
there is no hating on Sbc, my friend...just some heated and passionate discussion...that happens...
Not really. I'm not judging him as a person. I'm judging his knowledge of a particular issue.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
Whoa, all this piling on scb has got to stop. I don't see her as 'hating on all men'. In fact, nothing in what she has said could really be construed in that fashion, and pretty much all she wrote has been accurate. I know for a fact that condoms are not as reliable as people think they are - I believe thay have around 85% reliability. They break, they slip, they get put on incorrectly, the male does not pull out immediately, etc.
From what I can tell, we're all mostly on the same side anyway.
And last I checked, I was a man.
I was letting scb know they way I perceived her posts. Nothing wrong with that.
I'm just curious as to why you say they don't count as a reliable form of long term birth control. I've never really had someone discuss with me how birth control can be split into different categories like that.
In theory, a condom can be up to 98% effective at preventing pregnancy when used perfectly during a single sexual encounter, meaning there's about a 2% chance that it will break or come off. However, in reality, condoms are used imperfectly much of the time. Additionally, people who rely on them as a primary source of birth control can slip up over time and occasionally have sex without using a condom. So when you factor in human error, the real efficacy of condoms is closer to 85%.
On the other hand, there are many other forms of contraception that remove much of the human error. The pill, for example, is 99% effective in theory and closer to 92% effective in reality because, although inconsistency can be an issue, improper use is not. So using the pill is much more effective long-term than using a condom. (Frequently inconsistency is an issue because of barriers to access, by the way.)
The IUD, however, is not user-dependent so it doesn't really allow room for incorrect or inconsistent use. You just have it inserted by a doctor and it's good for 5-10 years. You don't have to put it on properly. You don't have to remember to take it. It's efficacy rate in theory & in practice is greater than 99% - about the same as (some have said higher than) permanent sterilization. Implanon, the new contraceptive implant, has similar efficacy rates.
So women who want to minimize (not just reduce) their chances of unintended pregnancy would be wiser to use something like the IUD or Implanon (neither of which have really caught on in popularity in the United States) than condoms or the pill. And they'd be much wiser to use the pill than to rely on condoms. (And, of course, there are many other methods of contraception as well, which have varying rates of efficacy and varying risks & benefits.)
It can be complicated. Though the pill is the most popular form of reversible contraception in the U.S., women not only face various access issues, but also many women can't use any form of hormonal contraception for medical reasons. This rules out the majority of the reliable forms of contraception, leaving them with few options. (Then there's the trail-and-error period while you're trying to find the right contraceptive method.) Use of the IUD is limited in part because people don't know about it, many insurance companies won't cover it, or doctors are still using outdated qualification guidelines. (Good article, by the way: Family planning American style: why it's so hard to control birth in the US. Espey, 2007.)
Anyway, I hope this kind of answers your question. Just the fact that you asked it give me hope.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
Whoa, all this piling on scb has got to stop. I don't see her as 'hating on all men'. In fact, nothing in what she has said could really be construed in that fashion, and pretty much all she wrote has been accurate. I know for a fact that condoms are not as reliable as people think they are - I believe thay have around 85% reliability. They break, they slip, they get put on incorrectly, the male does not pull out immediately, etc.
From what I can tell, we're all mostly on the same side anyway.
And last I checked, I was a man.
Thank you. And you're right; you're a man and I don't hate you.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
Whoa, all this piling on scb has got to stop. I don't see her as 'hating on all men'. In fact, nothing in what she has said could really be construed in that fashion, and pretty much all she wrote has been accurate. I know for a fact that condoms are not as reliable as people think they are - I believe thay have around 85% reliability. They break, they slip, they get put on incorrectly, the male does not pull out immediately, etc.
From what I can tell, we're all mostly on the same side anyway.
And last I checked, I was a man.
I was letting scb know they way I perceived her posts. Nothing wrong with that.
Well I'm sorry you have an inaccurate perception of me. I don't hate men; I hate willful ignorance & judgement of others. So now you're judging me for judging others for judging others? Why don't the original judgers just cut it out and we wouldn't have a problem?
I was letting scb know they way I perceived her posts. Nothing wrong with that.
Well I'm sorry you have an inaccurate perception of me. I don't hate men; I hate willful ignorance & judgement of others. So now you're judging me for judging others for judging others? Why don't the original judgers just cut it out and we wouldn't have a problem?
Haha...not my perception of you. But what your posts in this thread were making you seem like, in my opinion.
It wasn't helping the debate.
Anyhow, I know you are extremely passionate about this subject and I appreciate your viewpoint, even though I don't always agree with you.
Honestly, I don't think, for someone that has insurance that pays for BC, and has access to condoms as well, that the system was at fault in this case. The system isn't as easy as it potentially could be, but it wasn't very hard either for your friend.
Now, for woman that do not have access to health benefits that provide for BC and their only "affordable and accessible" option for BC is a condom...while they can be used properly and prevent unintended pregnancies a great deal of the time, it is a bigger risk. And in reality a risk that our society can't really afford. It's an expensive mistake on our part not to have a simple BC pill available to all women for a reasonable cost.
Honestly, I don't think, for someone that has insurance that pays for BC, and has access to condoms as well, that the system was at fault in this case. The system isn't as easy as it potentially could be, but it wasn't very hard either for your friend.
I really wasn't trying to find "fault," but if that's what we're doing I think it can be broken down into components. I don't think it's the system's fault that she felt the need to take EC. I do think it's the systems fault that she had to pay $50 for it. Whether or not paying $50 is reasonable is debatable.
My point all along was that the system has room for improvement, so I guess we agree.
She borrowed the money and got the EC, by the way, in case anyone's interested.
Now, for woman that do not have access to health benefits that provide for BC and their only "affordable and accessible" option for BC is a condom...while they can be used properly and prevent unintended pregnancies a great deal of the time, it is a bigger risk. And in reality a risk that our society can't really afford. It's an expensive mistake on our part not to have a simple BC pill available to all women for a reasonable cost.
Let's not forget the other forms of contraception too!
Comments
If by "women I condemn" means your friend who let her prescription lapse, didn't re-enroll in the prescription plan, seemingly had sex without using a condom from the start, then yes, I am more responsible than her...
And I don't have to prove anything on a fucking internet message board... get over yourself.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I'll happily get over myself as soon as those of you who talk so much shit about women's reproduction without having the slightest understanding of it get over yourselves. :roll:
wow. what a sad, defeatist, apathetic attitude.
(but. ha. for certain the word EMPATHETIC would NOT be used to describe any part of your attitude that you have exhibited in this thread!!!)
Who exactly is "talking so much shit about women's reproduction"?
We all agree the the insurance system sucks (which I thought was the point of this whole thread), and some of us chimed in about the person in question as adding to her problems by being somewhat irresponsible.
You keep bringing these straw men arguments about condemning women, when no one is doing that... Maybe it's because you work with the issue everyday, but like I said, it seems like you have a bad persecution problem about the whole thing.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
underpaid. working poor. working in fields where they help others for a living and get paid shit for it... FUCK 'EM!
FUCK HER!
LAZY IRRESPONSIBLE BITCH!
Here's the source of my frustration:
Every single day I deal with women who are trying desperately to control their reproduction. Every single day I hear their stories and see, first-hand, the barriers they face. I spend hours and hours of my time trying to help women overcome these barriers.
And then every time I get on this message board there are a bunch of guys saying these barriers don't exist and these women are just irresponsible. (And they don't say the women "added to" their problems or are "somewhat" irresponsible; they say It's the woman's fault, case closed.) They complain about the problem (as in your other thread) but want no part in the solution. They act like they know enough about women's reproduction to judge these women. They judge even the most responsible of women and, in judging, imply that they are better than and know more than these women. They seldom suggest that they have anything to learn about or are interested in understanding the reality of women's experiences with reproduction. They seldom acknowledge that, when it comes down to it, men play only a very small role in controling reproduction and know much less than they purport to know about whether or not they were successful. But they go around saying they are responsible and successful at this endeavor, and that the women in question should be as responsible and successful at it as they are.
I started this thread to give another example of the obstacles in the path of women trying to obtain the contraception so many people here say is so easy to come by. Not to deflect or even address blame. But few people got the point and I just got more of the same tired blame-the-woman argument and seemingly no greater understanding. And that makes me sad. And frustrated. (Sorry if I was rude.)
Having said that, I still tend to agree with most of the posters in this thread that some foresight should've been taken into account by both parties and if the guy has a problem with her demands perhaps he should be told to keep his pants on?
well, for me, those who assume, don't plan, don't understand their own insurance and then play victim are the irresponsible ones...
I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
to be honest, birth control is easy as hell to obtain...Birth control is in nearly every supermarket, drug store, gas station...hell, one can pick up a big ol' box of birth control is at Costco...
And it's not that expensive...if the man refuses to wear a condom, don't fuck him...it's not that hard...
are condoms 100% effective...nope...only abstinence is...at the end of the day, when a man and a women have sex, they open themselves up to the chance of getting prego....plain and simple...
as for the "system", talk and complain and moan all you want, it's not changing (for the good) anytime soon...I guess that makes me a bad person for understanding this and planning accordingly...
EMPATHETIC, huh....?
yeah, life is all butterflies and lollipops...
Again with the lack of understanding of reproductive health issues. I'm talking about obtaining birth control that's RELIABLE long-term. The attitude that all it takes is picking up a box of condoms is a huge part of the problem.
You know how they always say that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children? I'm starting to think that guys who are this ignorant about safe sex shouldn't be allowed to fuck.
what joy can there be in being some of our single moms, who wake up every day knowing that they can't afford to raise their own child in a sustainable way. on top of that you have judgemental people who have no real clue as to their individual circumstances, automatically grouping them into the one category of losers/abusers of the system, and showing them no respect at all.
I guess I better stop fucking because I think condoms are a inexpensive and accessible form of birth control...
as for RELIABLE long-term b.c., your friend had that in place and let it lapse...so suddenly all men who disagree with your stance that your friend is somehow a victim of the system are sexist, ignorant bastards who need to bow down to your way of thinking...why does everyone have to be a victim in today's world...?
and what the hell is wrong with a man taking it upon himself to carry condoms and use them...? and what's wrong with a women demanding a man wear one if they are going to have sex...is it too simple to understand...?
I get the sense you dislike men...well, just so you know, and I would hope that you do, it takes two to make a baby...
don't forget about the single dads...
For someone who is always complaining about people judging, you sure as hell do a ton of it.
would it be fair to say that single dads are not demonized by society in general, the same way single moms are though? how often do you hear of a single dad being labelled as a promiscious, lazy welfare queen. or king.
Talk about twisting my words! :roll: There is nothing wrong with men carrying and using condoms or with women insisting men wear them, and I've supported condom use all along!
But it's ignorant to think (as so many men seem to) that responsible sexual health consists of nothing more than picking up a box of cheap condoms at the gas station. Responsible sexual health is much more complicated than that, and that's what I've been saying all along that I wish men would understand. (Wanting men to be educated, responsible, & non-judgemental absolutely does NOT equal to disliking men, by the way. :roll: )
Condoms are reliable enough (by most standards) for people who have sex once every 2 years, like the woman in my example. But for people who have sex more regularly than that, condoms alone aren't as reliable as you make them out to be. Therefore, they do not count as a reliable form of long term birth control.
So now that leaves us with other forms of more reliable birth control to assess how accessible they are, and this is where access is more complicated than you're willing to admit. (And, for the life of me, I don't know why you're so unwilling to admit it.)
I have a friend, for instance, who tried diligently for over 2 YEARS before she was able to get an IUD. Was she "responsible" in the meantime? Sure. But that's not the point. The point is that no one should have to do battle for 2 years to get an IUD. And she fought much harder, and was thankfully better educated about the topic, than most.
Every woman has her own unique, often complicated, situation & set of circumstances when it comes to sexual health. And when you and others suggest, just because the part you're willing to take responsibility for is easy, that you can therefore generalize & stereotype & judge the situations of others, I take offense to that.
It has nothing to do with being a victim or disliking men. It's all about disliking ignorant, sweeping, judgemental generalizations - and you'll note that I take this same position in threads where other groups of people are stereotyped as well.
Not really. I'm not judging him as a person. I'm judging his knowledge of a particular issue.
No...you appear to be judging and hating on all men. It's kinda sad.
I'm just curious as to why you say they don't count as a reliable form of long term birth control. I've never really had someone discuss with me how birth control can be split into different categories like that.
Whoa, all this piling on scb has got to stop. I don't see her as 'hating on all men'. In fact, nothing in what she has said could really be construed in that fashion, and pretty much all she wrote has been accurate. I know for a fact that condoms are not as reliable as people think they are - I believe thay have around 85% reliability. They break, they slip, they get put on incorrectly, the male does not pull out immediately, etc.
From what I can tell, we're all mostly on the same side anyway.
And last I checked, I was a man.
there is no hating on Sbc, my friend...just some heated and passionate discussion...that happens...
I was letting scb know they way I perceived her posts. Nothing wrong with that.
In theory, a condom can be up to 98% effective at preventing pregnancy when used perfectly during a single sexual encounter, meaning there's about a 2% chance that it will break or come off. However, in reality, condoms are used imperfectly much of the time. Additionally, people who rely on them as a primary source of birth control can slip up over time and occasionally have sex without using a condom. So when you factor in human error, the real efficacy of condoms is closer to 85%.
On the other hand, there are many other forms of contraception that remove much of the human error. The pill, for example, is 99% effective in theory and closer to 92% effective in reality because, although inconsistency can be an issue, improper use is not. So using the pill is much more effective long-term than using a condom. (Frequently inconsistency is an issue because of barriers to access, by the way.)
The IUD, however, is not user-dependent so it doesn't really allow room for incorrect or inconsistent use. You just have it inserted by a doctor and it's good for 5-10 years. You don't have to put it on properly. You don't have to remember to take it. It's efficacy rate in theory & in practice is greater than 99% - about the same as (some have said higher than) permanent sterilization. Implanon, the new contraceptive implant, has similar efficacy rates.
So women who want to minimize (not just reduce) their chances of unintended pregnancy would be wiser to use something like the IUD or Implanon (neither of which have really caught on in popularity in the United States) than condoms or the pill. And they'd be much wiser to use the pill than to rely on condoms. (And, of course, there are many other methods of contraception as well, which have varying rates of efficacy and varying risks & benefits.)
It can be complicated. Though the pill is the most popular form of reversible contraception in the U.S., women not only face various access issues, but also many women can't use any form of hormonal contraception for medical reasons. This rules out the majority of the reliable forms of contraception, leaving them with few options. (Then there's the trail-and-error period while you're trying to find the right contraceptive method.) Use of the IUD is limited in part because people don't know about it, many insurance companies won't cover it, or doctors are still using outdated qualification guidelines. (Good article, by the way: Family planning American style: why it's so hard to control birth in the US. Espey, 2007.)
Anyway, I hope this kind of answers your question. Just the fact that you asked it give me hope.
Thank you. And you're right; you're a man and I don't hate you.
Well I'm sorry you have an inaccurate perception of me. I don't hate men; I hate willful ignorance & judgement of others. So now you're judging me for judging others for judging others? Why don't the original judgers just cut it out and we wouldn't have a problem?
Haha...not my perception of you. But what your posts in this thread were making you seem like, in my opinion.
It wasn't helping the debate.
Anyhow, I know you are extremely passionate about this subject and I appreciate your viewpoint, even though I don't always agree with you.
Honestly, I don't think, for someone that has insurance that pays for BC, and has access to condoms as well, that the system was at fault in this case. The system isn't as easy as it potentially could be, but it wasn't very hard either for your friend.
Now, for woman that do not have access to health benefits that provide for BC and their only "affordable and accessible" option for BC is a condom...while they can be used properly and prevent unintended pregnancies a great deal of the time, it is a bigger risk. And in reality a risk that our society can't really afford. It's an expensive mistake on our part not to have a simple BC pill available to all women for a reasonable cost.
Thanks. I appreciate your viewpoint too, and I don't hate you as much as I hate some of the other guys around here.
I really wasn't trying to find "fault," but if that's what we're doing I think it can be broken down into components. I don't think it's the system's fault that she felt the need to take EC. I do think it's the systems fault that she had to pay $50 for it. Whether or not paying $50 is reasonable is debatable.
My point all along was that the system has room for improvement, so I guess we agree.
She borrowed the money and got the EC, by the way, in case anyone's interested.
Let's not forget the other forms of contraception too!
Yeah, I typed BC all the way through then added "pill" that 1 time...you are like a BC spell checker.
Hey, man, we can't be too careful! What if it had ended up in a contract or grant or bill that way?! Always gotta read the fine print!
EDIT TO ADD: I'm actually a little bit serious. This is how bad legislation slips through. That's why I always notice these types of specifics.