Two Stories of GI Resistance

WaveCameCrashin

Byrnzie wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Let me ask you this then. what about all the Iraqis that are happy we got rid of Saddam. What about all the Innocet people that Saddam tortured and murdered ? We went there to remove Saddam from power and help them to build a new GOV. We aren't the suicide bombers that go into markets and blow up innocent civilians. How come every person that is enlisted right now doesn't feel this way ? Why do we still have young Men and women signing up.What about all the schools and hospitals that we have rebuilt because some suni or shiite blew it up ? What about all the road side bombs that have maimed thousands of soldiers ? We have done a lot of good over there more than you will ever know or care to know because you only care to see the negative in anything America has ever done.

Iraq has been destroyed with over 1 million dead. Don't try to paint it as any kind of victory. You wrecked that fucking country and now you try to brush off the effects by blaming the Iraqi's themselves. Balls to that. Bush et al should all be sent to the Hague with their criminal buddies in Israel.

Oh spare me your bull shit you could care less about Iraq. I didn't support going over there in the first place. Like I said all you do is bash america and americans any chance you get. why don't you look at the country you live in. what about your last dictator and the millions of people that he murdered.

WaveCameCrashin

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

let's get one thing straight. we know that you never cared about any iraqi citizin, as far as you are concerned they all want democracy, which is an unknowable conclusion. most articles i have read say they were happier under saddam because saddam kept all of the warlords that are now running rampant in some sort of check..we have done alot of good over there....first we destroy the place then we rebuild it....sounds like a lot of good to me...last i heard the average iraqi now has electricity for an average of 7 hours a day, and they are just now getting access to clean water.....real good...

Let's get this straight. You don't know a goddamn thing about me or what I care about. Im so sick of your smart ass comments. What have you done for any Iraqi citizen. Nothing Im sure. Neither one of you know shit on this subject. You just believe what the far left tells you to believe.

WaveCameCrashin

SunshineBurn wrote:

As a bit of an introduction, I was formerly an infantryman in the US military and fought hard for a conscientious objection discharge so stories of soldiers standing up to the machine hold a special place in my heart. Send these guys some Love please, its not easy to do what they are doing.

Two Stories of GI Resistance

Ryan Jackson hails from IVAW's Savannah, GA chapter. He joined the U.S. Army and served in South Korea until 2007. After reading the words of visionaries like Dr. Martin Luther King and Gandhi, Ryan decided he could no longer serve in good conscience. He Spent 100 days in a Charleston, SC brig after going AWOL for his beliefs. See Ryan tell his story here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwqIUE2aY_w

Marc Hall is a father serving on active duty at Ft. Stewart, GA. He's already completed 1 tour of duty in Iraq and is set to deploy again in another week. Marc's military contract ends this February, but he has been Stop-Lossed for his unit's up-coming deployment back to Iraq.

Marc is also a hip-hop artist and recently recorded an angry song entitled "Stop Loss" as an artistic outlet for his frustrations about his situation. He explains on his website, "I am a political artist. I rap about real issues in life in hopes to recover a solution."

You can listen to Marc's song by clicking here. (Be aware that the song contains explicit lyrics.)
http://marcwatercus.com/sitebuildercont ... oploss.mp3

News of the song reached Marc's chain of command at Ft. Stewart which claims that the song's lyrics amount to the "communication of a threat."

The Army placed Marc in jail last Friday charging him with an Article 134. We believe that Marc's right to freedom of speech is being violated. IVAW Field Organizer, Jason Hurd, has been in contact with Marc including phone and in-person visits to get more details of his story.

Here's how you can help Marc today:

Call the jail at 912-876-6411 to demand an end to his illegal confinement.

Send letters of protest to: CPT Cross, Commander, B 2-7 INF BN, Fort Stewart, GA 31314.

can anyone even understand what the hell he is talking about. It sounds like abunch of mumbo jumbo to me. He didn't even have to go to Iraq or Afghanistan so what the hell is he complaining about ?

and I hope this guy doesn't plan on being the next big hip hop act . No but seriosly the whole stop loss thing is B.S. I can sympathize with him,but the first guy looks like he would rather be doing bong hits.

gimmesometruth27

prfctlefts wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

let's get one thing straight. we know that you never cared about any iraqi citizin, as far as you are concerned they all want democracy, which is an unknowable conclusion. most articles i have read say they were happier under saddam because saddam kept all of the warlords that are now running rampant in some sort of check..we have done alot of good over there....first we destroy the place then we rebuild it....sounds like a lot of good to me...last i heard the average iraqi now has electricity for an average of 7 hours a day, and they are just now getting access to clean water.....real good...

Let's get this straight. You don't know a goddamn thing about me or what I care about. Im so sick of your smart ass comments. What have you done for any Iraqi citizen. Nothing Im sure. Neither one of you know shit on this subject. You just believe what the far left tells you to believe.

i know a hell of a lot more about what we have done over there than you do. i talk to veterans several times a week at the local vfw. they say things are far worse than what we hear over here on any media. i do not believe what the far left tells me, i believe what soldiers and vets tell me and i believe what my conscience tells me.

Byrnzie

prfctlefts wrote:

all you do is bash america and americans any chance you get.

Maybe you should stop making it so easy for me.

OffHeGoes29

Byrnzie wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

These ass holes crack me up…..the last time I checked…there isn’t a draft. Don’t join the military if you don’t agree with it….and don’t use the “my recruiter lied to me” speech….if you’re not smart enough to know what you’re getting yourself into…then I have zero sympathy. It is the military….why it a surprise when they go to war? People like this usually use this as an excuse to get out of a deployment or some other disciplinary issues the public doesn’t know about.

Maybe some people enlist because they want to defend their country? Invading and destroying Iraq had nothing to do with defending America, therefore these people felt it right to withdraw their services. Vietnam was also a bullshit war that had nothing to do with protecting Americans.

Was that what it was like when you were in the military?[/quote]

You don't need to have been in the military to have a brain.[/quote]

But having some experience would make for a stronger argument, I'm just saying. My experience in this matter has given me this view point. It doesn't mean 100% of the people who defect or go AWOL are like what I described, but from what I've seen and my coworkers and family in other Army units have seen...its a lot like what I described.

But what do I know...just an opinion.

Byrnzie

http://www.truthout.org/1214091

Veterans Group Calls On Soldiers to Refuse Orders to Deploy to Afghanistan and Iraq

Monday 14 December 2009

by: Dahr Jamail, t r u t h o u t | Report


In response to President Barack Obama's announcement on December 1 to deploy 30,000 additional troops to the occupation of Afghanistan, the organization March Forward!, comprising both veterans and active-duty members of the US military, has called on all soldiers to refuse their orders to deploy.

"March Forward! calls on all service members to refuse orders to deploy to Afghanistan and Iraq," reads a press release from the group from December 3. "We offer our unconditional support and solidarity. Join us in the fight to ensure that no more soldiers or civilians lose their lives in these criminal wars."

Michael Prysner, a former corporal in the Army who served from 2001-2005 and a veteran of the occupation of Iraq, co-founded the group with another Iraq war veteran, James Circello.

Truthout asked Prysner how he responds to those who believe a soldier should always follow orders, no matter what.

"In my experience the majority of people joining the military today join out of necessity, like money, jobs, help for their family, etc., so most don't join for ideological or patriotic reasons. Most are driven into the military by economic conditions. We see this playing out now, as people are joining in droves because of the economy."

Prysner added, "Yes, people do sign a contract to follow orders, but those orders are wrong and unlawful. We want to educate people to the fact that these are immoral orders, and they [soldiers] are being used as muscle for corporations, to colonize the developing world, and it's not legitimate. People who join and take this oath seriously who think they are in [the military] to defend the US, this is not what we are being used for in the military today."

Prysner has written about his experience in Iraq, "... there was no computer screen separating me from the suffering civilian population. I spent 12 months in Iraq, doing everything from prisoner interrogations, to ground surveillance missions, to home raids. It was my firsthand experiences in Iraq that radicalized me. I believed I was going to Iraq to help liberate and better the lives of an oppressed people, but I soon realized that my purpose in Iraq was to be the oppressor, and to clear the way for US corporations with no regard for human life."

After he separated from the Army in 2005, Prysner "understood that the occupation I was a part of was a crime against humanity. I understood that illegal conquering of Iraq was for profit, carried out by a system that serves a tiny class of super-rich whose endless drive for wealth is at the expense of working people in the United States and abroad."

According to Prysner, the lessons he learned from being part of the US occupation of Iraq taught him that, "I still had the same drive to fight for freedom, justice and equality as I did when I joined, and I understood that fighting for those things meant fighting against the US government, not on behalf of it."

To those who call him and his organization "anti-American" and/or "unpatriotic," Prysner has this to say:

"I would say that I have more in common with my sisters and brothers in Iraq and Afghanistan than I do with these people in DC who've sent us to war. If that's unpatriotic, then yes, I am. But patriotism and racism are the only things the military has to fall back on to convince people to do the things we are being asked to do today."

March Forward! was founded in 2008, and the aim of the organization is "to unite all those who have served and who currently serve in the US military, and who want to stand up for our rights and for that which is right."

"We are new and growing," Prysner explained. "We have seen somewhat consistent growth, and we're expecting this to accelerate now."

The group's statement from December 3 adds, "On December 1, we got a clear order from President Obama. For many more years, we will be sent to kill, to die, to be maimed and wounded, in a war where 'victory' is impossible, against a people who are not our enemies. For over eight years, we have come home in coffins, in wheelchairs, with our skin burned and with our days and nights haunted by the trauma of war. We return home to a VA whose services are so inadequate that active duty soldiers who succumb to suicide outnumber those killed in combat."

James Circello is a former Army sergeant and veteran of the US occupation of Iraq. Circello, who joined the military in 2001, describes his experience in Iraq as follows:

"During the occupation of Iraq, the truth about what the United States government has done to the country of Iraq became more apparent. Open wastewater flowed through neighborhood streets where children played soccer. Families were thrown out of their homes with simple accusations from others. Vehicles were taken on sight by the military if individuals couldn't provide proper documents claiming they own the vehicle. These events and others helped in strengthening my opposition to the so-called 'War on Terror.'"

In April 2007, Circello left his base in Vicenza, Italy, and went absent without leave (AWOL) in protest of US policy in the Middle East. In November 2007, he turned himself in to the military at Fort Knox and was discharged within three days.

Circello has remained very active with his work against US Foreign Policy, having worked with Iraq Veterans Against the War and the group Courage to Resist before joining March Forward!.

Circello's decision to go AWOL was his way of refusing to deploy to Afghanistan.

I had been fighting myself internally after my time in Iraq, about whether to deploy again," he explained to Truthout, "I ended up back in my old unit that was preparing to deploy, so at that moment I took it into my hands, and decided I wasn't going to go kill Afghans that had done nothing to me, or the American people. It was a defining moment for me."

According to Pentagon figures, since October 2001, more than 50,000 soldiers from all branches of the military have gone AWOL.

John Raughter is the communications director for the American Legion, an organization that describes itself as "a patriotic, war-time veterans organization, devoted to mutual helpfulness," according to its web site.

Raughter is clear about his stance on the rights of soldiers. "We have an all-volunteer force," he explained to Truthout, "These are not draftees. They swore an oath to obey the orders of the Commander in Chief."

According to Raughter, the American Legion does not, in any way, support AWOL soldiers or those who refuse to deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan. "Within reason, the military should be able to enforce obedience. Obedience and order are critical for the military to do its mission. People can't pick and choose which orders to obey and which not to [obey]. If it's a lawful order, they are obliged to obey."

Yet the oath enlisted soldiers must take before being deployed, reads:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Marjorie Cohn, president of the National Lawyers Guild, is the co-author of "Rules of Disengagement: The Politics and Honor of Military Dissent" with Kathleen Gilberd. In the book, they write, "Rules of Engagement limit forms of combat, levels of force, and legitimate enemy targets, defining what is legal in warfare and what is not. (They're also) defined by an established body of international (and US) law that leaves no ambiguity."

Cohn and Gilberd argue that every US war since WWII has been illegal. Article 51 of the UN Charter only permits the "right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member ... until the Security Council has taken measures to maintain international peace and security."

In addition, Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 (the war powers clause) of the US Constitution authorizes only both houses of Congress, not the president, to declare war. Nonetheless, that process has been followed only five times in our history and last used on December 8, 1941, after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

Nevertheless, Raughter believes soldiers who are dissenting against the occupations should have never joined the ranks. "If they are ethically opposed to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I would say that most of these people have enlisted or reenlisted since the beginning of the war. These wars were occurring when they made this oath of enlistment. It should have come to their minds."

Circello's response to those who refer to their tactic of encouraging soldiers to refuse deployment orders as being "unpatriotic or un-American?

"This is a tactic of demonization and we reject it," he explained, "The corporations profiting in these wars don't care about America or the American people. Is providing mercenaries to kill innocent people overseas, and bombs to kill innocent people, is that American and patriotic? The people who use these terms are demagogues. We can't forget that America was a land of institutionalized slavery, slavery was American, and folks like Dr. Martin Luther King, when they stood up to racism were called un-American ... so the same thing happens today. When you protest war, or call on soldiers to desert based on their own interest, you are called un-American."

Prysner and Circello's organization has stated, "March Forward! supports the right of all service members to refuse illegal and immoral orders. Orders to deploy to Afghanistan and Iraq are just that: illegal and immoral. We have no reason to fight in these wars, and we have every right to refuse to be a part of them."

Jeanwah

SunshineBurn wrote:

Marc is also a hip-hop artist and recently recorded an angry song entitled "Stop Loss" as an artistic outlet for his frustrations about his situation. He explains on his website, "I am a political artist. I rap about real issues in life in hopes to recover a solution."

You can listen to Marc's song by clicking here. (Be aware that the song contains explicit lyrics.)
http://marcwatercus.com/sitebuildercont ... oploss.mp3

News of the song reached Marc's chain of command at Ft. Stewart which claims that the song's lyrics amount to the "communication of a threat."

The Army placed Marc in jail last Friday charging him with an Article 134. We believe that Marc's right to freedom of speech is being violated. IVAW Field Organizer, Jason Hurd, has been in contact with Marc including phone and in-person visits to get more details of his story.

Here's how you can help Marc today:

Call the jail at 912-876-6411 to demand an end to his illegal confinement.

Send letters of protest to: CPT Cross, Commander, B 2-7 INF BN, Fort Stewart, GA 31314.

From what a friend who is in the military has told me, everyone who enlists are bound by the military to say nothing to the public nor the media in particular or discipline will be enforced. Therefore the right to Freedom of Speech is pretty much taken away contractually. Isn't that correct?

IMO, this is taking away the rights of a citizen. Slavery, basically.

OffHeGoes29

prfctlefts wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

let's get one thing straight. we know that you never cared about any iraqi citizin, as far as you are concerned they all want democracy, which is an unknowable conclusion. most articles i have read say they were happier under saddam because saddam kept all of the warlords that are now running rampant in some sort of check..we have done alot of good over there....first we destroy the place then we rebuild it....sounds like a lot of good to me...last i heard the average iraqi now has electricity for an average of 7 hours a day, and they are just now getting access to clean water.....real good...

Let's get this straight. You don't know a goddamn thing about me or what I care about. Im so sick of your smart ass comments. What have you done for any Iraqi citizen. Nothing Im sure. Neither one of you know shit on this subject. You just believe what the far left tells you to believe.

+1

Jeanwah

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

These ass holes crack me up…..the last time I checked…there isn’t a draft. Don’t join the military if you don’t agree with it….and don’t use the “my recruiter lied to me” speech….if you’re not smart enough to know what you’re getting yourself into…then I have zero sympathy. It is the military….why it a surprise when they go to war? People like this usually use this as an excuse to get out of a deployment or some other disciplinary issues the public doesn’t know about.

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. What an ignorant post.

OffHeGoes29

Jeanwah wrote:

SunshineBurn wrote:

Marc is also a hip-hop artist and recently recorded an angry song entitled "Stop Loss" as an artistic outlet for his frustrations about his situation. He explains on his website, "I am a political artist. I rap about real issues in life in hopes to recover a solution."

You can listen to Marc's song by clicking here. (Be aware that the song contains explicit lyrics.)
http://marcwatercus.com/sitebuildercont ... oploss.mp3

News of the song reached Marc's chain of command at Ft. Stewart which claims that the song's lyrics amount to the "communication of a threat."

The Army placed Marc in jail last Friday charging him with an Article 134. We believe that Marc's right to freedom of speech is being violated. IVAW Field Organizer, Jason Hurd, has been in contact with Marc including phone and in-person visits to get more details of his story.

Here's how you can help Marc today:

Call the jail at 912-876-6411 to demand an end to his illegal confinement.

Send letters of protest to: CPT Cross, Commander, B 2-7 INF BN, Fort Stewart, GA 31314.

From what a friend who is in the military has told me, everyone who enlists are bound by the military to say nothing to the public nor the media in particular or discipline will be enforced. Therefore the right to Freedom of Speech is pretty much taken away contractually. Isn't that correct?

IMO, this is taking away the rights of a citizen. Slavery, basically.

Slaves are forced into slavery, people in the military volunteered....and have gotten huge bonuses and tax breaks for deploying. I know of some reenlistment bonuses of up to 100K (depending on the job), but most fall in the 10K to 40K range for enlistment or reenlistment bonuses.

As far as free speech, well there are some rules about protest and public comments (like in the paper). You can't join a political rally, regardless if its rep or dem. You can't shit talk your commanders and elected officials in a public forum. (but trust me, it happens unofficially). The reason for this is moral and discipline, which if you have never been in the military, you won't understand. Its actually a necessity, regardless of what you think.

Most people in the military can care less about politics and world affairs. Most of the people I knew while I was in join for two reasons. 1) MONEY...... 2) they are young and get excited about a romantic idea that their job will be cool compared to flipping burgers in their small town. Very few join for political ideology and very few give a shit about whats going on in the world. There biggest concern is what bar to go to on the weekend and if they have to work weekend duty or not. The people who become "political" overnight while there in usually have some ulterior motive and want to get out because they don't like getting up at 4:30 AM and showing up to work and doing their job. The most politically interested people I know under 30 are in college, having seen this after going to school after getting out, most people in the military don't vote for fuck sake.

I didn't read this from some paper or hear it from a friend....I lived it and worked with these people for over 6 years.

OffHeGoes29

Jeanwah wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

These ass holes crack me up…..the last time I checked…there isn’t a draft. Don’t join the military if you don’t agree with it….and don’t use the “my recruiter lied to me” speech….if you’re not smart enough to know what you’re getting yourself into…then I have zero sympathy. It is the military….why it a surprise when they go to war? People like this usually use this as an excuse to get out of a deployment or some other disciplinary issues the public doesn’t know about.

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. What an ignorant post.

So I guess I just imagined my 6 year enlistment...was it different for you when you were in?

Byrnzie

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

These ass holes crack me up…..the last time I checked…there isn’t a draft. Don’t join the military if you don’t agree with it….and don’t use the “my recruiter lied to me” speech….if you’re not smart enough to know what you’re getting yourself into…then I have zero sympathy. It is the military….why it a surprise when they go to war? People like this usually use this as an excuse to get out of a deployment or some other disciplinary issues the public doesn’t know about.

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. What an ignorant post.

So I guess I just imagined my 6 year enlistment...was it different for you when you were in?

Did you read the article I posted above? Some interesting views from ex-servicemen there. Maybe you can try dismissing them?

OffHeGoes29

Byrnzie wrote:

Did you read the article I posted above? Some interesting views from ex-servicemen there. Maybe you can try dismissing them?

They could be honest.....but if they were that against it, they would have never joined.

OffHeGoes29

Let me ask some of you a question, would any of you have joined the military prior to 9/11? How about before March 17th 2003? How about after that?

gimmesometruth27

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Let me ask some of you a question, would any of you have joined the military prior to 9/11? How about before March 17th 2003? How about after that?

to answer your questions:

1. nope

2. nope

3. and nope

Byrnzie

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

They could be honest.....but if they were that against it, they would have never joined.

You seem to think you have the last word on the motivations of anyone and everyone who's ever been in the military. How did you happen to come by this incredible gift of omniscience?

OffHeGoes29

Byrnzie wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

They could be honest.....but if they were that against it, they would have never joined.

You seem to think you have the last word on the motivations of anyone and everyone who's ever been in the military. How did you happen to come by this incredible gift of omniscience?

I don't know...it came to me one day....pretty awesome huh?

OffHeGoes29

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Let me ask some of you a question, would any of you have joined the military prior to 9/11? How about before March 17th 2003? How about after that?

to answer your questions:

1. nope

2. nope

3. and nope

Why not? Serious question.

gimmesometruth27

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Let me ask some of you a question, would any of you have joined the military prior to 9/11? How about before March 17th 2003? How about after that?

to answer your questions:

1. nope

2. nope

3. and nope

Why not? Serious question.

i had other career ambitions and decided not to enlist. in hindsight, after seeing how our servicemen and women have been misused since 9/11 thankfully i made the right decision.