The Define "Grunge" Challenge
HeavyHands
Posts: 2,130
I posted this in a different thread but it was not on topic so I'm laying it out here as a formal challenge with several steps (Yes. I am going to make you work for it.). Ultimately you will either be proving or disproving my hypothesis that Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, and Nirvana are not actually "grunge" music bands.
I've never understood classifying PJ and Soundgarden or Nirvana or AIC or Screaming Trees or anyone else in the same category except Rock. And that's just because of each band's choice of instrumentation (guitars, drums, bass, occasional keyboards), lineup, and arrangements (popular, blues based like nearly all rock bands). I'm fully aware of the stylistic difference demonstration in the documentary "Hype." But using that definition, I find it applies to no one mentioned earlier (or other than some early Mudhoney). Certainly not PJ at any point in their catalogue.
The only reason I can see for grouping all of these bands together is because they share a common geographic origin. Not because they sound remotely alike in things like: production, vocal style, lyrical style or content, lead guitar style, percussion/rhythm style, etc...
It seems (to me) quite obvious that the term "grunge" is primarily used as a marketing term to conjure an image in the minds of consumers in order to sell products, rather than to summarize the musical content of a few bands' catalogues.
Hypothesis: Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Screaming Trees, and Nirvana are not actually "grunge" music bands. The term "grunge" as it applies to them was wholly misapplied.
Suggested steps to proving/ disproving the hypothesis:
1. Define "Grunge" as a musical style.
2. Offer up quantitative evidence as to how this style is played by any of the aforementioned bands.
2.a. Provide evidence in the form of a hyperlink to a video on YouTube (or comparable video site), reference to a specific song (s) and the specific moments within the song (s) when the aforementioned bands demonstrably play in the style you are saying can be musically defined as "grunge," or some other quantitative method of providing evidence of your stance.
3. Provide quantitative evidence that any of the aforementioned bands have consistently played this style throughout a majority of their career, thus earning the label "grunge" band.
4.Are you a musician? Throw out some music theory! I'm not afraid to talk flatted fifths or pentatonic scale. I might have to ask some follow up questions, but I'll listen.
5.Have some other way to prove or disprove the hypothesis? Lets hear it. I'm not promising I'll accept it, but if I don't I'll give you solid reasons why I wont.
Note: If you're going to quote a book, article, webpage, etc... cite your sources like I have in the paragraph* below.
"...grunge is generally characterized by heavily distorted electric guitars, contrasting song dynamics, and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics. The grunge aesthetic is stripped-down compared to other forms of rock music, and many grunge musicians were noted for their unkempt appearances and rejection of theatrics.
Would someone please define "grunge" for me. I mean in musical terms. Writing style/theory." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge, accessed 5 December, 2009)
* BTW, the content of this Wikipedia paragraph is bs and is unacceptable. By this definition, Metallica, Nine Inch Nails, Blur, the Gutter Twins, Smashing Pumpkins, and thousands of others would all be categorized as "grunge." I challenge you to come up with something original.
So go ahead. Quote some Greg Prato, Clark Humphrey, Kim Thayil, Jack Endino, Michael Azerrad... Impress me.
*EDIT*
In absence of proof that my hypothesis is wrong, I'm going to be unscientific and consider it to be unquestionably correct!
I've never understood classifying PJ and Soundgarden or Nirvana or AIC or Screaming Trees or anyone else in the same category except Rock. And that's just because of each band's choice of instrumentation (guitars, drums, bass, occasional keyboards), lineup, and arrangements (popular, blues based like nearly all rock bands). I'm fully aware of the stylistic difference demonstration in the documentary "Hype." But using that definition, I find it applies to no one mentioned earlier (or other than some early Mudhoney). Certainly not PJ at any point in their catalogue.
The only reason I can see for grouping all of these bands together is because they share a common geographic origin. Not because they sound remotely alike in things like: production, vocal style, lyrical style or content, lead guitar style, percussion/rhythm style, etc...
It seems (to me) quite obvious that the term "grunge" is primarily used as a marketing term to conjure an image in the minds of consumers in order to sell products, rather than to summarize the musical content of a few bands' catalogues.
Hypothesis: Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Screaming Trees, and Nirvana are not actually "grunge" music bands. The term "grunge" as it applies to them was wholly misapplied.
Suggested steps to proving/ disproving the hypothesis:
1. Define "Grunge" as a musical style.
2. Offer up quantitative evidence as to how this style is played by any of the aforementioned bands.
2.a. Provide evidence in the form of a hyperlink to a video on YouTube (or comparable video site), reference to a specific song (s) and the specific moments within the song (s) when the aforementioned bands demonstrably play in the style you are saying can be musically defined as "grunge," or some other quantitative method of providing evidence of your stance.
3. Provide quantitative evidence that any of the aforementioned bands have consistently played this style throughout a majority of their career, thus earning the label "grunge" band.
4.Are you a musician? Throw out some music theory! I'm not afraid to talk flatted fifths or pentatonic scale. I might have to ask some follow up questions, but I'll listen.
5.Have some other way to prove or disprove the hypothesis? Lets hear it. I'm not promising I'll accept it, but if I don't I'll give you solid reasons why I wont.
Note: If you're going to quote a book, article, webpage, etc... cite your sources like I have in the paragraph* below.
"...grunge is generally characterized by heavily distorted electric guitars, contrasting song dynamics, and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics. The grunge aesthetic is stripped-down compared to other forms of rock music, and many grunge musicians were noted for their unkempt appearances and rejection of theatrics.
Would someone please define "grunge" for me. I mean in musical terms. Writing style/theory." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge, accessed 5 December, 2009)
* BTW, the content of this Wikipedia paragraph is bs and is unacceptable. By this definition, Metallica, Nine Inch Nails, Blur, the Gutter Twins, Smashing Pumpkins, and thousands of others would all be categorized as "grunge." I challenge you to come up with something original.
So go ahead. Quote some Greg Prato, Clark Humphrey, Kim Thayil, Jack Endino, Michael Azerrad... Impress me.
*EDIT*
In absence of proof that my hypothesis is wrong, I'm going to be unscientific and consider it to be unquestionably correct!
"A lot more people are capable of being big out there that just don't give themselves a chance." -Stone Gossard
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Alpine Valley Resort is etched in my brain!!!
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
grunge is a hybrid of metal and punk.
It was really popular in Seattle, therefore any rock band that came out of Seattle and owned a distortion pedal was labeled grunge.
end of story.
Completely 100% agree.
Agreed. I distinctly remember reading an old article in which (I believe) Sebastian Bach recalled everything being hunky dory at Columbia one day, and then walking in on another day and seeing an AIC banner up where there used to be a Skid Row banner. He commented that it was that point when he knew they were on their way out and a musical sea change was afoot.
Yes to the marketing angle, but when (since the 60's) have rock bands ever really appeared finely groomed? For example, Neil Young has always looked like a vagrant.
While I agree with what you said, I completely disagree with the term "grunge" as being applied solely to a band's appearance, when written about. Whenever I read new or old articles about the bands I mentioned in the OP, the authors invariably refer to "grunge" rock. Ok, I'll bite. What is "grunge" rock? Somewhere, at some point in time, this term began being used to describe music that it had no business being affixed to.
I don't disagree at all. In fact, I think this is exactly correct. But if it's so obvious to you and me (and the other people who have responded so far), why do people intentionally still use this stupid, stupid, and incorrect term? Marketing probably, right?
It's no more accurate to call PJ or any of the other bands mentioned in the OP "grunge" than it is to say Bela Fleck plays Polkas and the Grateful Dead composed Baroque music.
It's like saying all rhombuses are squares or sushi is raw fish.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
For the record, I don't think of PJ - or any other band - as grunge. "Grunge" was a label applied to '90s Seattle non-glam rock, so as PJ matured and grew into the '00s, it no longer applied. Therefore, "grunge" is Pearl Jam, but Pearl Jam is not necessarily "grunge"... In the same way that all squares are rhombuses, but not all rhombuses are squares.
You used the term "Rock" pretty loosely, so I'll ask you: what is rock? (All grunge is rock, but not all rock is grunge, right?) Elvis was "The King of Rock" so would you put him into the same category as The Screaming Trees or AIC?
Ultimately it's all just semantics, and I don't feel like offering quantitative information because I'm not trying for a grade. And quantifying something like "grunge" would be like watching porn when you have a beautiful woman who just wants you to fuck her - you're missing the point.
dont ask me to explain that.
Agreed 100%
I'm assuming your writing professor is competent so I'll take that as a complement!
I'm going to say Mudhoney (particularly their early stuff), but other than that I'd completely agree with you.
Applied in what capacity? How they looked? What they sounded like? Where they were from? Something else?
Probably true. I may have used the term "Rock" pretty loosely. Were I to define it I might say that stylistically the family of music known as "rock" is an offshoot of Rock n Roll in which the strong blues tradition of song structure and scale is downplayed and more emphasis on volume. Especially with respect to the rhythm section in which drummers physically hit their drums with greater force and primarily neglect to compose odd time signatures in favor of less complex and more mainstream rhythms.
I disagree. Elvis is referred to as "The King of Rock n Roll." It's an important distinction to me in that Rock n Roll focuses more on presenting rhythm as a prominent component of the style.
In the grand scheme of things, it is just semantics. You're 100% on that. I guess I think it is more interesting (for me) to ask questions about things I don't understand and to try to drill down to good information than it is to wonder aloud where the Philly boots are. What I mean is... a little discussion about defining something I (or others) may-or-may-not take for granted stands a good chance of being enlightening. Which would be a fresh change of pace sometimes. No?
I've found that usually one of three things are true whenever someone tells me I'm missing the point.
1. They are absolutely correct.
2. Nope. I'm on to something.
3. A combination of the above.
Unfortunately only time and others participating in sharing information or opinions bares out which is most accurate.
Is this what people mean? Are they referring to a time period instead of a musical "sound" common to a bunch of bands?
I do see it pop up from time to time. But it confounds me why now just as it did when it first gained prominence. Personally, I would like to have it stricken from the English language.
Fixed!
So far no one has attempted a definition per-se, but several people have brought up interesting points. Namely that different perspectives provide different definitions. Thus far for definitions we have:
Grunge
(n)1. A musical style of playing Rock n Roll based music.
(adj)2. A marketing term invented and used to describe music bands whose physical appearance is unkempt (ie: long and/or unwashed hair).
(n)3. A time frame of popular American music recording and performance gaining mass pop culture awareness beginning in the early 1990's and ending (when)?
All really good stuff so far. Can anyone else shed some light on this mess of a term?
Music-wise, "grunge" is really a conflation of dissimilar music styles. It's unfair to classify these great bands with the following short descriptions, but it supports my "dissimilar" hypothesis:
Nirvana: John Lennon pop meets 80s punk, without becoming pop-punk. One guitar; simple to strange-sounding guitar solos (if any); pounding drums.
Alice in Chains: Metal with beautiful vocal harmonies. Shredding, virtuoso guitar solos.
Soundgarden: Tenor/falsetto metal and hard rock. Two detuned/alternate-tuned guitars; fancy time signatures.
Pearl Jam: Classic rock-inspired hard rock. (Ed's hard rock output is like The Who meets The Ramones, but that's later Pearl Jam.) Two guitars (three with Ed); bluesy solos.
Mother Love Bone: Apologies to the magazine who said this of Nirvana (for social reasons, evidently), but MLB were the Guns N' Roses it's OK to like.
Mudhoney: Grunge. Dirty and sweet, like mud and honey.
et cetera...
Other than Kurt's ill feelings toward Jeff and Stone, most of these musicians were friends and participated in each other's public side projects and private jam sessions.
Rock journalists and some fans still lump these out-of-region bands as grunge, but they are not:
Stone Temple Pilots: San Diego band. Not grunge, even though some members of Pearl Jam lived in SD at one point. Scott sounding like Layne and sometimes Ed in Core confused the rock journalists.
Smashing Pumpkins: Chicago band. Not grunge, even though Ed is from Chicago. Inclusion in Cameron Crowe's Singles soundtrack confused the rock journalists.
Soul Asylum: Minneapolis band. Not grunge, but they certainly looked un-bathed at one point.
Hole: Los Angeles band. Not grunge, but a certain member of this band has likely made more money off the label "grunge" that many of the aforementioned musicians. :roll:
et cetera...
In conclusion, if there is a grunge, then Mudhoney is grunge and have several friends from the mid-80s to mid-90s Seattle music scene. Otherwise, like many before me have written, grunge is locked into a certain region and time and "look," but those bands actually play(ed) different genres of music. I'm pretty happy that "grunge" is now a graphic design term for smudgy-looking font faces.
Cheers! This was probably more fun to write than for you to read. :P Sorry!
Fixed a typo.
saw PJ live in 2006 and 2009; Stone in 2008!
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Glad you recognized that!
You make a good point. I'm not sure I agree that rhythm is more prominent in rock n' roll - "rockers" are known for their headbanging, and that wouldn't be possible if not for a pretty heavy dose of rhythm. But yes, I think I get what you're saying.
Fair enough.
I guess what I'm saying is that the "point" of grunge is to ROCK and to fuck the system. Quantifying it would undercut whatever message it may have carried. But, since you were so gracious in addressing my points, here's what I feel "grunge" is:
1) Seattle-based, late-'80s to mid-'90s rock. Mark Arm first used it in reference to music in 1981 (according to Wikipedia), but it didn't really take hold until some unquantifiable amount of time later (in the same way that you can't really identify the day that a person has matured).
2) Stylized by the fashion of flannel, thermals, long greasy hair, ripped jeans, etc.
3) More dark, cerebral (yet oftentimes nonsensical) and visceral in lyrical content than its "hair metal" predecessor.
4) Having a murky or "grungy" sound (via distortion and slowed down metal riffs) compared to the slick arena rock that came before it.
5) A deconstructive mesh of punk and metal that was meant to fly in the face of fashion and authority (as seen in Cobain's wardrobe and antics, Stayley's constant references to drugs and depression, the theme of "noisy" as opposed to just "loud").
6) Having died with Curt Cobain. That's not to say that nothing was made after his death that fits this criteria, but he was arguably the most widely known (and accepted to be) "grunge" artist. There was some momentum that kept it going afterward (in the same way the wars may carry on for some time after the leaders have died), but people became less comfortable applying the term. Since it's all just semantics anyway, when people cease labeling it, it ceases to be.
**I'm not savvy enough to provide links here for "proof".
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The Los Angeles hardcore punk band Black Flag's 1984 record My War, where the band combined heavy metal with their traditional sound, made a strong impact in Seattle. Mudhoney's Steve Turner commented, "A lot of other people around the country hated the fact that Black Flag slowed down ... but up here it was really great ... we were like 'Yay!' They were weird and fucked-up sounding."[17] Turner explained grunge's integration of metal influences, noting, "Hard rock and metal was never that much of an enemy of punk like it was for other scenes. Here, it was like, 'There's only twenty people here, you can't really find a group to hate.'" Bands began to mix metal and punk in the Seattle music scene around 1984, with much of the credit for this fusion going to The U-Men.[18]
grunge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeQ6WtR3jSw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZtCC62G_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gyYKnnRvhc
not grunge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWwmIfy0GNE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQfKC-RBjZU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb-DTrMG4vs
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
To me it's just a name the media came up with.
Each band had/has it's own sound, style, influences.
The word grunge is believed to be a back-formation from the US slang adjective grungy,[2] which originated in about 1965 as a slang term for "dirty" or "filthy." Mark Arm, the vocalist for the Seattle band Green River—and later Mudhoney—is generally credited as being the first to use the term grunge to describe this sort of music. Arm first used the term in 1981, when he wrote a letter under his given name Mark McLaughlin to the Seattle zine, Desperate Times, criticizing his band Mr. Epp and the Calculations as "Pure grunge! Pure noise! Pure shit!" Clark Humphrey, editor of Desperate Times, cites this as the earliest use of the term to refer to a Seattle band, and mentions that Bruce Pavitt of Sub Pop popularized the term as a musical label in 1987–88, using it on several occasions to describe Green River.[3] Arm said years later, "Obviously, I didn't make [grunge] up. I got it from someone else. The term was already being thrown around in Australia in the mid-'80s to describe bands like King Snake Roost, The Scientists, Salamander Jim, and Beasts of Bourbon."[4] Arm used grunge as a descriptive term rather than a genre term, but it eventually came to describe the punk/metal hybrid sound of the Seattle music scene.
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
if we are talking 'grunge' as in musical sound i think neil young helped create it
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
It could be called snoopy-paloopy for all I care. If someone wants to call it grunge so be it.
why is metal called metal? why is punk called punk? why is hip-hop called hip-hop?
who gives a shit?
I've always considererd Grunge a style of rock music that was popular during a certain time period. I say Time period because bands up and coming in 1995 are all of a sudden labeled "post grunge."
to me, it's a genre, it had a particular sound and an image. The image being flannels, khaki's greasy long hair doc martins ect. I say genre because while it is rock music, their was the distinctive sound. The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, ect are all considered rock music too, but the sound and image are different.
So I guess my definition would be Grunge- a genre within the rock music catagory that that had the distinctive sound of heavy distortion, and conveyed an image consisting of the following, Flannel, khaki, doc martins, converse sneakers, long greasy hair ect.
The city of Seattle, Wa is credited as the birth place for this genre.
Why Neil Young has been credited as the "father of grunge" due to his influence on the bands growing up, it has been argued that Mark Arm may have originally coined the term to label this genre.
EV Solo: 7/11/11 11/12/12 11/13/12
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
ergo.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
that's the ticket.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Grunge exists. It's just a label to easily identify a number of bands without naming a bunch.