Opinions Wanted: Was this "unsportsmanlike"?

oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
edited November 2009 in All Encompassing Trip
Here is the low down:

7th Grade Boys Basketball - Some local tournament
AAU Team vs. Traveling Team

AAU Team, which was clearly superior in every aspect of the game, was up 29-4 late in the 2nd Quarter, but remained in a full court press.

To open the 2nd Half, with a lead the exceeded 30 points, and with the Traveling Team presenting no threat whatsoever to said lead, remained in a full court press.

In the interest of full disclosure, my nephew plays for the Traveling Team in question. I hated watching this. It was genuinely humiliating for the team, and frustrating as all get out to watch.

Because of my personal bias, I cannot be objective. But, for 12 and 13 year old kids, was this an "unsportsmanlike" act?

I don't mean the final score (71-21), or the AAU Team playing the game the way they are capable of playing it, but to press when up by more than 30?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    It could also be viewed another way as it would be disrespectful to your opponent by letting up and not treating them as though they were a threat. It is always a tough call when unwritten "mercy" rules are considered. I say the call lies with the AAU coach and the attitude of the team. If they were acting smug and appeared to just be "toying" with your nephew's team, then I say call it bad sportsmanship.
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    edited November 2009
    I'm guessing by the final score, the fact that the Traveling team ended up with 21 points, the other team eventually abandoned the full court press ... right?

    We weren't there, so, it's tough to say ... but it appears they eventually let up a little.
    Post edited by jimed14 on
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • covered in blisscovered in bliss chi-caw-go Posts: 1,332
    Ya, it was.

    My daughter is on a 6 & 7th grade park district team and they've had 2 practices so far this year. This past Saturday was their first game and they played a traveling team that was all 8th graders that have been practicing since August... 2 hour practices, twice a week!

    The score at half was like 45-ZERO. We missed every free-throw... it was a mess! We thought they would put their 5 worst players in but they didn't so early in the 3rd someone decided to stop keeping score and reset it back to 00-00. Thank. God.

    a great definition at wikipedia: Sportsmanship expresses an aspiration or ethos that the activity will be enjoyed for its own sake, with proper consideration for fairness, ethics, respect, and a sense of fellowship with one's competitors.
  • oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
    They did eventually (late 3rd Quarter,maybe?) fall back into a half court press.

    The good team's coach was definitely acting like a pompous ass. That probably bothered me the most. I wanted to punch him in the eye with a key.

    At the professional level, I say go for it. Rub their faces in it. Even college, as most athletes are at least 18 (and adults in the eyes of the law), sure, let your opponent really have it.

    When it comes to kids, though, I guess I feel differently.

    Thanks for your input. I should just get over it already, but I'm just sore.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    oona left wrote:
    The good team's coach was definitely acting like a pompous ass.


    there's the problem...jackasses coaching children like it is the sweet 16 :roll:
  • covered in blisscovered in bliss chi-caw-go Posts: 1,332
    I don't blame you for being upset... it's upsetting! We've been involved in kids' sports for 8 years and it's obvious that some people live through their kids and take it too seriously when kids are young. It sucks because it can turn kids off of the sport. Up until high school it should be about learning the rules, positions, developing form, learning sportsmanship, etc.

    Some of the parents are really, really bad, worse than the psycho coaches. Their kid is 10 and already they're talking about a scholarship.
  • oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
    I don't blame you for being upset... it's upsetting! We've been involved in kids' sports for 8 years and it's obvious that some people live through their kids and take it too seriously when kids are young. It sucks because it can turn kids off of the sport. Up until high school it should be about learning the rules, positions, developing form, learning sportsmanship, etc.

    Some of the parents are really, really bad, worse than the psycho coaches. Their kid is 10 and already they're talking about a scholarship.

    Exactly!! What can you win that night, a plastic trophy? Not the attention of the university of your choice, that's for sure. Coach K is not in attendance.

    Learning to win and to lose with dignity is applicable to real life.

    I've heard about some high schools that routinely beat other teams by 60 or more turning off the scoreboard after a certain point. The stats all counted, but the losing team was at least spared the humiliation of their "failures" being shown in lights (that's how my friend termed my nephew's team's outcome, a "failure").

    Most youth baseball programs have a slaughter (mercy) rule. I don't believe there is such a thing in basketball, football, or any other timed game. I could be wrong. But, it seems that leaves it more in the hands of the coaches and players as far as how they want to conduct themselves.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I don't know... I remember playing little league and we came back from a 21 to 3 game to win it. We were down 11 runs before we even came to bat.
    As kids... we learned that sometimes you get your asses kicked... and sometimes you don't. As an adult, you figured out that it's only a game. Looking back, i remember playing in those games where we got stomped on... I just remember that I liked playing the game and was more upset when they called the mercy rule on us because i wanted more chances to catch fly balls or more chances to bat and run the bases.
    I think we need to return sports to where it belongs... on the PLAYground.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • WhizbangWhizbang Posts: 1,314
    Cosmo wrote:
    I don't know... I remember playing little league and we came back from a 21 to 3 game to win it. We were down 11 runs before we even came to bat.
    As kids... we learned that sometimes you get your asses kicked... and sometimes you don't. As an adult, you figured out that it's only a game. Looking back, i remember playing in those games where we got stomped on... I just remember that I liked playing the game and was more upset when they called the mercy rule on us because i wanted more chances to catch fly balls or more chances to bat and run the bases.
    I think we need to return sports to where it belongs... on the PLAYground.

    I completely agree.
    Someone noted it earlier with regard to it being insulting to the losing opponent for you to ease up because you feel bad.

    I never played team sports. I ride horses competitively (well...on a hiatus at the moment). The closest I came to team riding was in college. In college, you draw a horse's name from an envelope and you ride. If the show is not at your school's barn, you don't know any of the horses. All you have when you enter the ring is how well you ride and how well you're dressed. Your first fence counts, no warm up. At the end of the class, if there are 7 riders, someone isn't going to win one. Is that unfair? Is that unsportsmanlike? Sorry, you didn't ride good enough to get a ribbon. Congratulate the person who won, go home & practice then ride in the next show.
    believe it or not, we don't "need" anything. that is only the spoiled brat in us trying to fill some temporary solution to an emptyness that does not exist.

    I have eaten so much gold I crapped excellence - drtyfrnk29

    Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Whizbang wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    I don't know... I remember playing little league and we came back from a 21 to 3 game to win it. We were down 11 runs before we even came to bat.
    As kids... we learned that sometimes you get your asses kicked... and sometimes you don't. As an adult, you figured out that it's only a game. Looking back, i remember playing in those games where we got stomped on... I just remember that I liked playing the game and was more upset when they called the mercy rule on us because i wanted more chances to catch fly balls or more chances to bat and run the bases.
    I think we need to return sports to where it belongs... on the PLAYground.

    I completely agree.
    Someone noted it earlier with regard to it being insulting to the losing opponent for you to ease up because you feel bad.

    I never played team sports. I ride horses competitively (well...on a hiatus at the moment). The closest I came to team riding was in college. In college, you draw a horse's name from an envelope and you ride. If the show is not at your school's barn, you don't know any of the horses. All you have when you enter the ring is how well you ride and how well you're dressed. Your first fence counts, no warm up. At the end of the class, if there are 7 riders, someone isn't going to win one. Is that unfair? Is that unsportsmanlike? Sorry, you didn't ride good enough to get a ribbon. Congratulate the person who won, go home & practice then ride in the next show.
    ...
    Hunters and Jumpers, yeah? Expensive sport.
    And the thing is... it was fun... just to ride, right?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • yes
    I miss you hippiemom.
  • milarsomilarso Posts: 1,280
    It could also be viewed another way as it would be disrespectful to your opponent by letting up and not treating them as though they were a threat. It is always a tough call when unwritten "mercy" rules are considered. I say the call lies with the AAU coach and the attitude of the team. If they were acting smug and appeared to just be "toying" with your nephew's team, then I say call it bad sportsmanship.

    Taking off a full-court press is not an "unwritten mercy rule." In basketball, there is a time and a place to implement a press, and most of the time it is either early in the game to try to shift momentum and build a lead, or late in the game when you are trailing and need to force turnovers.
    I don't think there is any good reason to keep a press on when you are up in the second half by a large margin. However, from what I know of the AAU system, this doesn't surprise me.
    Those teams keep very accurate stats and because college coaches and scouts are trying to get a look at players earlier and earlier in their development, it's not uncommon for teams like this to pad their stats in the hopes of having standout players look better on paper.
    I don't know what's worse, an organization that puts coaches in a position to have to run up the score on weaker teams in order for their players to have an advantage or a system that is making middle schoolers worry about impressing college coaches...
    "The dude abides. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' her easy for all us sinners."
  • milarsomilarso Posts: 1,280
    oona left wrote:

    Most youth baseball programs have a slaughter (mercy) rule. I don't believe there is such a thing in basketball, football, or any other timed game. I could be wrong. But, it seems that leaves it more in the hands of the coaches and players as far as how they want to conduct themselves.

    Not that it means a whole lot, but most youth sports in Michigan do have rules where, in the timed sports, if a team is getting beaten by so many points, the clock just runs and never stops. It makes the games go a lot faster.
    "The dude abides. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' her easy for all us sinners."
  • WhizbangWhizbang Posts: 1,314
    Cosmo wrote:
    Whizbang wrote:
    I completely agree.
    Someone noted it earlier with regard to it being insulting to the losing opponent for you to ease up because you feel bad.

    I never played team sports. I ride horses competitively (well...on a hiatus at the moment). The closest I came to team riding was in college. In college, you draw a horse's name from an envelope and you ride. If the show is not at your school's barn, you don't know any of the horses. All you have when you enter the ring is how well you ride and how well you're dressed. Your first fence counts, no warm up. At the end of the class, if there are 7 riders, someone isn't going to win one. Is that unfair? Is that unsportsmanlike? Sorry, you didn't ride good enough to get a ribbon. Congratulate the person who won, go home & practice then ride in the next show.
    ...
    Hunters and Jumpers, yeah? Expensive sport.
    And the thing is... it was fun... just to ride, right?

    Yes, hunters/jumpers. I loved the college gig....put everyone on the same level.
    Yup, fun just to ride. I had owned my own for 12 years, shovelled the shit myself and loved it. She was euthanized 2 1/2yrs ago and I miss the barn/show scene. I did so much catch riding in college that my instructor has me work horses for her if the owners aren't around or if she needs her school horses worked. Hell of a lot more expensive to show through her barn so I'm on a money break!
    believe it or not, we don't "need" anything. that is only the spoiled brat in us trying to fill some temporary solution to an emptyness that does not exist.

    I have eaten so much gold I crapped excellence - drtyfrnk29

    Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all!
  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,027
    Here is the way I look at this. If one team was able to go up 30 to 4 by halftime, what is stopping the other team from coming out and scoring 30 near unanswered points in the second half ? Then the team that was winning lost its mojo, and blah blah blah.

    you have to put points on the board when you can, because in sports strange things can happen.

    If they backed off in the 3rd, I think what they did is O.K. maybe ? I don't know. It's hard when its kids, but still. Life don't back down when you are getting beat so , I also think it's a good life lesson to get your ass handed to you in sports and such as a kid.
    Peace, Love.


    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    probably unsportsman like - i agree though with the poster who said it really depended on the players and coaches ... like were they fist pumping after each basket and celebrating over the top?

    the thing is ... if you want to be a good team - you need to be able to practice your sets ... maybe the main rotation needed work on the full court press when they play better teams ... also, on the flip side ... for your nephew's team - you aren't gonna get better unless you get your ass whooped ... it's a learning experience ... his team should be better prepared to break out of the press the next time ... you need to have a short memory when playing sports ...
  • Cosmo wrote:
    I don't know... I remember playing little league and we came back from a 21 to 3 game to win it. We were down 11 runs before we even came to bat.
    As kids... we learned that sometimes you get your asses kicked... and sometimes you don't. As an adult, you figured out that it's only a game. Looking back, i remember playing in those games where we got stomped on... I just remember that I liked playing the game and was more upset when they called the mercy rule on us because i wanted more chances to catch fly balls or more chances to bat and run the bases.
    I think we need to return sports to where it belongs... on the PLAYground.
    I could'nt agree with you more.
    The bus came by and I got on!!!!!
  • DeLukinDeLukin Posts: 2,757
    Cosmo wrote:
    As kids... we learned that sometimes you get your asses kicked... and sometimes you don't. As an adult, you figured out that it's only a game. Looking back, i remember playing in those games where we got stomped on... I just remember that I liked playing the game and was more upset when they called the mercy rule on us because i wanted more chances to catch fly balls or more chances to bat and run the bases.
    I think we need to return sports to where it belongs... on the PLAYground.
    Right on. And on a side note, this 'age of the participation ribbon' that we live in has blinded kids to the fact that survival of the fittest is how the real world operates. It's okay to lose if it challenges you to work hard and get better. I've worked with WAY too many 20-somethings who have horrible work ethics and can't take constructive criticism. They act like the world owes them something. It's an epidemic.

    (in bitter, crotchity old-man voice): And stay off my lawn!
    I smile, but who am I kidding...
  • covered in blisscovered in bliss chi-caw-go Posts: 1,332
    DeLukin wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    As kids... we learned that sometimes you get your asses kicked... and sometimes you don't. As an adult, you figured out that it's only a game. Looking back, i remember playing in those games where we got stomped on... I just remember that I liked playing the game and was more upset when they called the mercy rule on us because i wanted more chances to catch fly balls or more chances to bat and run the bases.
    I think we need to return sports to where it belongs... on the PLAYground.
    Right on. And on a side note, this 'age of the participation ribbon' that we live in has blinded kids to the fact that survival of the fittest is how the real world operates. It's okay to lose if it challenges you to work hard and get better. I've worked with WAY too many 20-somethings who have horrible work ethics and can't take constructive criticism. They act like the world owes them something. It's an epidemic.

    (in bitter, crotchity old-man voice): And stay off my lawn!

    while I totally agree with you that losers shouldn't get a trophy, I disagree that 10 year old's should have their asses whopped in sports. I'm telling ya, it can really turn them off. Especially girls.

    The 20 year olds you work with are not the way they are because of sports. Guaranteed.

    I call bullshit on the 'I hated when they called mercy on us" stuff... it's way too John Boy.

    :)
  • milarsomilarso Posts: 1,280

    The 20 year olds you work with are not the way they are because of sports. Guaranteed.

    I call bullshit on the 'I hated when they called mercy on us" stuff... it's way too John Boy.

    :)

    agreed.
    "The dude abides. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' her easy for all us sinners."
  • WhizbangWhizbang Posts: 1,314
    while I totally agree with you that losers shouldn't get a trophy, I disagree that 10 year old's should have their asses whopped in sports. I'm telling ya, it can really turn them off. Especially girls.

    The 20 year olds you work with are not the way they are because of sports. Guaranteed.

    I call bullshit on the 'I hated when they called mercy on us" stuff... it's way too John Boy.

    :)

    Ok....I am a girl and can think of numerous times that I "lost" in a horse show. The example I had earlier? 7 riders in the class and there are only 6 ribbons? It's awesome when they call out the rider numbers, from 1st place down to 6th, while you're sitting on your horse in the middle of the ring, and your number is never called. Never stopped me from showing. They didn't have the participation ribbon. Even better? when your horse (due to your lack of preparation) acts up in class and they call your number over the LOUD SPEAKER to stand in the middle of the ring while the judge continues judging the rest of the riders as the circle the ring around you. No mercy ribbon for that either. Embarrassing? yes. Turned me off from riding horses competitively? absolutely not. Falling off at a national horse show in Texas didn't stop me either.

    My nephews play football - junior mighty might division this year (I think? there are so many divisions, I couldn't tell you with any certainty). two years ago, their team was young and new. Lost every game....most of them they didn't get to score any points. Most games they were blown out by 20+ points, easily. They still played the clock out, no mercy rule. Both are still playing 2 years later, they just turned 11.

    I cannot say sports are the reason why 20yr olds have a lack of responsibility or a sense of entitlement. Parents are. "kids need to be held responsible for their actions! well, except my kid....".
    believe it or not, we don't "need" anything. that is only the spoiled brat in us trying to fill some temporary solution to an emptyness that does not exist.

    I have eaten so much gold I crapped excellence - drtyfrnk29

    Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I call bullshit on the 'I hated when they called mercy on us" stuff... it's way too John Boy.
    ...
    Sorry. You can make that call... but i can tell you... you made the wrong call.
    ...
    When we played on our own... just us kids, no adults. We would play the full 9 innings or til it got too dark. The scores didn't matter that much because we just liked playing the game.
    And like I said... I still remember that Little League game... and it was 40 years ago. 11 to nothing after 1/2 an inning... 21 to 3 by the end of the third. And we came back to win.
    The mercy rule was made for adults who are worried about their pussy son's feelings getting hurt. The adults need to ask the kids if they want to play the game or if winning is the most important thing to them. I can bet that the kids who love to play will say, 'Play'.
    Sure, winning is more fun than losing... but, playing SHOULD be the most important thing.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Play better defense

    Play better offense

    as a hockey coach i sometime play my team in tournaments above their abilty for practice and sometimes this happens

    i dont expect our opponents to play easy on us or change they way they play because we arent as good

    i feel its up to us to play better to keep the game competitive
    Had my eyes peeled both wide open, and I got a glimpse
    Of my innocence... got back my inner sense...
  • oona left wrote:
    I wanted to punch him in the eye with a key.

    my eye itches.
  • No! Kids need to learn that there will be asshats in this world who are relentless. When we were young when you got smoked 13-0 in hockey you knew what you were up against a couple of weeks down the line when you played that team again. The coach now has to take on the responsibility to show his team how to beat the full court press.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
    Fascinating reads. I definitely have adjusted my perception of the event.

    And, in the short term, am very glad that I didn't give in to my urges and assault the guy. That'da been wrong :)
  • covered in blisscovered in bliss chi-caw-go Posts: 1,332
    Some good reading if you've got the time:

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bringing+ ... 0118807464

    70 percent of the approximately 20 million children who participate in organized out-of-school athletic programs will quit by the age of 13 because of unpleasant sports experiences.

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/ar ... sports.htm

    Mercy rule does NOT mean that the winning players 'go easy'. In girls softball, there is a 5 run limit. The same for boys baseball. The little kids can't 'walk'. In boys football, they don't stop the clock and the ball gets placed on the 50 yard line. Girls and boys basketball stops advertising the score on the scoreboard. (they still keep track, though.)

    Most importantly, if the situation changes, they STOP the mercy rules and go back to regular play-- which happens.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Some good reading if you've got the time:
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bringing+ ... 0118807464

    70 percent of the approximately 20 million children who participate in organized out-of-school athletic programs will quit by the age of 13 because of unpleasant sports experiences.

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/ar ... sports.htm

    Mercy rule does NOT mean that the winning players 'go easy'. In girls softball, there is a 5 run limit. The same for boys baseball. The little kids can't 'walk'. In boys football, they don't stop the clock and the ball gets placed on the 50 yard line. Girls and boys basketball stops advertising the score on the scoreboard. (they still keep track, though.)

    Most importantly, if the situation changes, they STOP the mercy rules and go back to regular play-- which happens.
    ...
    I am willing to bet that there is a significant portion of the 70% of kids who quit organized sports because of unpleasant experiences with adults... specifically, parents... pushing them to WIN. Then, there are the kids who just suck... can't hit a baseball if it's sitting on a tee, can't stop a ball if it's rolled to them.
    I quit playing organized ball because it stopped being fun. I still played, but in unorganized games at the park with my friends and the kids from the other neighborhoods. That was fun. There were no coaches yelling at me or parents in the stands shouting out shit... just us kids.
    Baseball and football are fun games to play. The fucking adults ruin the games.
    ...
    And as far as the Mercy rule goes... those may be today's standards. When I was playing... if your team was down by 11 runs past the fifth inning... game over. Pack your shit and go home.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
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