why didn't this Iraq withdraw plan get any support?
Pepe Silvia
Posts: 3,758
i'm not interested in debating the effectiveness of the surge, if you skip to around 2:10 in the video she brings up her bill she submitted on leaving Iraq, which never seemed to get very far.....actually listen to her plan....it makes perfect sense, i wonder why this didn't get very much support?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYY2vz5pZ2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYY2vz5pZ2c
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Because you can't expect a country to run its self on the same model as the west in a ridiculous short amount of time. It took us 230+ years to get were we are today, you can't force democracy and a self-substaining government on people who don't know what these concepts are in the first place. Its going to take a lot of time and a lot of money to get them on their feet, we owe it to them for occupying their country.
The idea of bailing out of Iraq/A-stan is like rescuing an abused child out of a disfunctional home and then dumping them on the street because you don't want to spend the time and money to help them, sure they're free, but have no idea how to take care of themselves, and in some ways are no better off then before.
This is a good analogy, IMO.
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I was waiting for someone to say that. I almost mentioned this, in fact. :P
I agree, we are not talking about children. The analogy is not good in terms of accounting for why Iraqi people do what they do. Its good from the standpoint of arguing against expecting someone (or a group of people) to somehow master a concept (i.e., democracy) in a few years that other groups of people took hundreds to years to master.
i was simply correcting a poor analogy.
by using the same analogy??? hmmmm.. next time, call it out.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the analogy insinuates that the iraqi people dont have the capability or maturity to run their own lives.
and why are we expecting them to master democracy??
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
becos that's what we have and we know what's best for everybody.
I do not, necessarily ... Thus my earlier comment that its unrealistic to expect them to do so ... Although, I'd be a tad surprised if you thought that they'd be better off governed by a genocidal dictator as compared to an elected government. As imperfect as democracy is, I view it as the least of the various evils.
just a tad surprised?? :P
its good that hussein is gone. but, and i realise hindsight is a fabulous thing, it could have been handled so much better. there was no need for an invasion. the US are masters of getting dictators out of countries that want to string them up by the balls. and in imo the hanging of saddam hussein was one of the biggest displays of hypocrisy ive ever seen in my life. the answer isnt always violence. in fact it rarely is.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You'll get no disagreement from me on these points ... Especially the violence one. I am not a pacifist, but at the same time, various forms of violence (war, terrorism, etc.) get used as potential solutions way too early in the problem-solving chain, if you will. Violence tends to breed more violence ... It should be used as a last resort, if at all.
well considering we spend our children's lifetimes telling them violence isnt the answer and to have more empathy for their 'enemy', its kinda mindboggling that violence is way too often 'our' first resort when it comes to sorting to conflicts.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
violence solves everything on tv. and in the movies. you teach your kids one thing, culture teaches them something else. speaking as as citizen of the US/
You left out the part where the child flushes your t-shirt down the toilet... sets your dog on fire... takes a razor blade to your kids backs... and pisses on your face when you're sleeping.
Yeah... 2 or 3 decades of tolerating this and you'll be on the right track.
Good luck with that kid.
Hail, Hail!!!
As far as a western style government is concerned...no they can't....or atleast not yet.
Well whats the right thing to do? Leaving them now isn't the right thing to do, and we don't have a uranium powered Delorean to go back to March 17, 2003.
Relax, you'll still get your fat paycheck from your company for all the military contracts it has while we are there.
Thank you for correcting me
You want to stay because the decision was made in the past? What, the cards were dealt, so our guys should just deal with it? What the fuck kind of reasoning is THAT???
I say, bring our guys home... you say, leave them there. The place is a fucking mess... a goddamn tire fire we set off in the desert. You want to put the fire out by throwing lives and tax dollars on it for... how long? 10, 20 years? At what point do you cut your losses?
I say, let it burn. The fucking thing is going to burn, whatever we do about it. And in the end... both yours and my decisions have the same results... a smoldering pile of burnt stink in the desert. But, at least my way... we don't lose lives and burn tax dollars.
...
Also... nice little chickenshit comment at the end... real fucking classy.
Hail, Hail!!!
so it needed to be done
Sorry, I just have a hard time with people who say one thing and do another. Stick with your principles, if you think we are doing only harm there, then find another profession, I'm sure you're qualified to find a good job that doesn't conflict with what you believe in.
Thank you for correcting me[/quote]
it needed to be done. we didn't save these countries. you don't kill hundreds of thousands of their people and get to claim you are saving them. you lose that right.
so it needed to be done[/quote]
You'll probably get your wish, I can honestly see us leaving before they are ready. If you're "hundreds of thousands" we killed is a lot, I don't want to think about what the vacuum we create is going to bring...
I used to be an activist. And one of the main reasons I escaped that way of life, was the complete uselessness of electoral politics and the fact that millions of people, about 100 million in the u.s. believe in the effectiveness of it. that is to say that 100 million people believe that by getting someone in office, usually only based on the fact that that person has a D or R next to their name, that somehow, these millionaire, white, overwhelmingly male mercinaries, would somehow, make the world a better place, and two, look out for the little guy, the average joe.
We heard in 2001, a majority of democrats saying "no we cant vote against the war in afghanistan because that would make us unpatriotic". In 2002, we were told the same thing. As the war in Iraq geared up in 2003, we were told by Democrats "we cant vote no to the war because we will be unpatriotic then". In 2004, the implicit suggestion and implication was that, Democrats were against the war, but, felt voting against it, would jeopardize their House/Senate seats or Presidential chances. Thus Kerry was more militaristic and prowar than Bush was in 2004, as Kerry wanted to amp up the Iraq war and add more troops. In 2005, we were told, we (the democrats) dont have power, so, we cant end the war. In 2006 when the American public overwhelmingly voted against the war, and thus gave the Democrats power, we were told, that nothing could be done about the war
The Withdrawal plan isnt getting support because it was never a simple equation like those "anyone but Bush" idiots suggested. Getting Bush out is great, but that doesnt solve our problems. In truth Bush is one part. The wars started and continue with the help, and funding by both parties, and the willingness of the Democrat party under Bush to go along long step with anything Bush wanted, for fear of, not getting elected, or being made to look weak on defense and thus proterrorist or antiamerican. Congress and the Senate continue to fund the wars, continue to authorize more funding for the war. Thats both sides. And both parties ultimately believe in the validity of the war. Both parties believe that their are a large group of people in the middle east who want us dead, and that the solution to that is to engage in a full scale war, and bomb the enemies. They believe terrorism can be eradicated, with guns and bombs. Bush believed it. Kerry believed it. Clinton Believed it. Obama believes it. and so on.
Additionally, it wasnt just Bush and his pals that made money during this war. Its not like the Democrats in office, Democrat politicians are any less slimy than the Republicans. Both are beholden to multibillion dollar corporations.
2 stories show basically everything that needs to be said:
1.Mothers and fathers of soldiers fighting in Iraq came to Reid and Pelousy, in 2006/2007 to suggest they do more to end the war, to impeach Bush and get their children home. According to these mothers and fathers, Reid and Pelousy literally laughed in their faces and told them that they would end the war once the 2008 elections occured.
2. Pelousy and Reid and others personally traveled to the detention centers like Abu Gharaib and Guantanemo, all the way back in 2002/2003. They personally saw the reality of those places, the torture going on, the lack of humanity being shown the detainees. pelousy, supposedly when shown waterboarding, and other torture techniques, said, "is that all we can do?". Suggesting that she thought this was not torture and that more could be done. Pelousy and Reid and the others who witnessed this, never spoke a word about it. Never uttered a word about this when the subject of Agu Gharib became worldwide news, never spoke up at those televised hearings reguarding torture. It wasnt until the NY Times published a report about it, years later, 5 years later or so, that this became known.
Dont hold your breath hoping some millionaire white politician is gonna give one iota whether more kids our age die in iraq and afghanistan. What does it harm them? How are they affected one bit? You think either Bush or Obama or Peolousy or Kerry or any of those idiots stays awake at night knowing their policies allow kids to die in some foreign land for some immoral and unjustified war?
There is a special place in hell reserved for everyone responsible for this war. And that extends all the way to the top.
What... so because I work in the Defense Industry, I'm supposed to support every bullshit war some fucking nimrod of a President gets us into? You feel I MUST support war, because of my job? What kind of fucked up bullshit America do you believe in? I believe in a strong defense... yes. I do not believe our military should be weilded like pawns by a fucking politician who want to settle a personal vendetta... like a vengeful child whose found his daddy's M-16. That's conflicted in your view?
I am NOT conflicted. I support my troops with due diligence in my work ethics because the planes we make carry them around. My job does not come into conflict my feelings of Iraq war... and the deteriorating Afghani War.
...
And YES... the fucking planes I help to build will carry my troops home. You may not mind if they are loaded in the cargo hold in coffins... I do. Try to spin your asshole comment anyway you want... it still ends up an asshole comment.
Hail, Hail!!!
ok, but her plan doesn't call for just leaving them alone....to sum up her plan, which she authored with 2 other congresswomen Lee and Waters; HR508 the Bring our troops home and Iraq sovereignty restoration act
-a FULLY FUNDED withdrawal of our forces within 6 months of enactment (i bolded the fully funded part to avoid the cries of 'throwing our troops under the bus')
-accelerate the training of Iraqi security forces (because clearly they weren't ready)
-create an international stabilization force which would stay for ONLY 2 years and ONLY at the request of the Iraqi government
-provide funding and resources for a safe withdrawal and whatever the troops need to get home but nothing towards prolonging or escalating the war
-humanitarian aid and investments in it's physical and economic infrastructure because "pulling our troops out of Iraq does not mean abandoning Iraq."
-no military bases built
-gives up claim to Iraqi oil, Iraq belongs to the Iraqis as does their resources
-full health care funding, including mental health benefits, for US soldiers who fought in these or any wars
that seems to make a lot of sense and could more than likely be cheaper than our current actions...
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this plan got little support because of parts like no military bases being built and giving up control, especially of resources
anyway, my point in posting this was to show that there WERE sensible exit strategies which were far from cutting and running, throwing the troops under the bus, abandoning iraq.....most politicians are full of shit and have no interest in stopping this war
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'