59% of people who died from H1N1 in the CDC study at the link above were under age 50, with only 9% being 65 or older. Usually 90% of people who die from the seasonal flu are 65 or older.
Really? Let me tell you my experience. When I was pregnant, the Drs. found 2 soft markers on the baby for Down syndrome. I wasn't interested in getting an amnio (which would guarantee the probability of the baby having DS). But several doctors urged me to get one; I should know these things and if it turns out positive (that the baby has DS), that I'll regret not terminating. That's right, no factual information, just doctors urging me terminate while I had the chance and to at least get an amnio. Yes, several doctors, too. Since then, and my daughter does have DS, I've done lots of research into how doctors treat pregnant women who's prenatal test show some chance that their child has DS. It's been found that doctors, across the board, have NOT been telling us the facts, but rather the downsides and that we really don't want these babies because of the "trouble" they may cause, the extra care and possible heart conditions.
Just three years ago, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists have conceded that false or no information has been given to pregnant women, as 90% of all women pregnant with a child with DS terminated. 90%. Senator Ted Kennedy and another senator got a bill passed to amend the Public Health Service Act to increase the provision of scientifically sound information and support services to patients receiving a positive test diagnosis for Down syndrome or other prenatally and postnatally diagnosed conditions. If it weren't for him, doctors would continue giving their "opinions" rather than factual information.
This is just one area where the truth has been told. H1N1 is too new to really know any factual info.
I'm sorry you had a negative experience with your doctors. But I still don't believe that you can accurately make such blanket statements about healthcare professionals as a whole.
I also don't agree that we can't know any factual information about H1N1 yet. Of course there are limits to epidemiologic knowledge, but we still know what we know. We just need to be sure to ackowledge the limitations, and I think our public health organzations do. No one is making any end-all-be-all statements about this flu; they are only saying "Here's what we know based on the data we have collected so far." So far, the data shows that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks and there is not yet any idication to the contrary.
If you decide to hold out for more data before making your decision - or if you've already decided to never get vaccinated regardless of any medical data - that's fine. But I don't think it's fair to suggest that healthcare providers across the board are not to be trusted or that we have absolutely no factual information.
It's not that I just had a negative experience with doctors. You can't deny, once you do the research, or talk to people who've had botched surgeries or things go wrong in the hospital, that doctors are only human. They make mistakes all the time. There is much to much praise for doctors to save the world, as no one can. And it's sad that people take doctors opinions as the ultimate of all knowledge. That's why 2nd opinions are so important in many cases. I gather from what you've said that you've been with your doctor for some time, and ultimately rely on him/her to make the best judgments for your health. While I do think it's great you've found a fantastic doctor you can trust, you can't trust them all. It's a no brainer that not all doctors out there are as awesome as yours. MANY make mistakes, and/or don't offer factual information. And in my findings for ALL those OB/GYNs to not give factual info to their patients, that's just the beginning of the truth being told. Who really knows what many other doctors are telling their patients? That's why patients doing their own research is so important and not just doing what the doc tells you.
I've talked to my sisters, who are RNs that this vaccine is too new to accurately foretell if they work or not. The vaccines are still being tested. You're one of the guinea pigs.
ETA: I noticed that you and the Champ feel my experience is personal (well, it is but...), but it had to do with a nationwide issue. Not giving credit to what's really going on, especially when Senators have to get involved...that's blatantly ignoring that there's an issue with Doctors communicating with patients. Throw the info aside if it doesn't pertain to you personally, but it's HAPPENING. Whether we want to believe it or not.
all vaccines are "best guesses" ... the current strain of h1n1 is treatable with anti-virals ... the issue ultimately is when the virus mutates into soemthing else or combines with another flu that currently has no treatment ...
although i do believe that those that are on the high risk or work in the health care profession should take the vaccine and do believe that everyone has to make their own decisions based on informed decisions ...
I've just been to our departmental meeting (I work for the NHS) and one of the topics discussed was encouraging us to have the regular flu jab, then the H1N1.
The majority of us aren't going to have either as we felt that with the flu one there was no guarantee that the scientists who decide which flu strain is going to be the one to watch for this year would be correct. With H1N1 we pretty much decided that it wasn't necessary for us as we weren't in the high risk category and didn't want initial side effects. A few people did say that they wouldn't take the risk of catching either and were going to have both.
We were however, offered an incentive to get the jab, which was ......
................................... .............................. a sticker.
While I do believe that moderation is needed for all good things, it saddens me that we have lost our collective memory of the horrors of illness before the invention of vaccination. One can be anti-Big Pharma and still pro-public health. Not all of Western medicine is part of some for-profit conspiracy. :(
Also, I'm not some pro-vaccine sheep. Until today, I hadn't received a vaccination for anything in probably 20 years. And I am pro-natural remedies. But I also understand that vaccination (along with sanitation) has been the best thing for public health since... probably ever.
very true!
i am registered for my seasonal flu vaccination 10.28. i'll leave H1N1 to all of you, for now. as i am no longer in the classroom, not a high risk, i'll wait it out.
My method: I asked my family doctor if he and his family are getting the H1N1 vaccine. His answer was unequivocably YES. I have no reason to not trust my doctor, and certainly no reason to believe he is part of a massive conspiracy intended to innoculate the population or to line the pockets of vaccine companies or his own pockets. So, I will be getting the vaccine, especially since I have a 3-month old at home. Same methodology goes for other vaccines and procedures.
My sister in law is a doctor and has already gotten her vaccine last Monday. Amazingly, she's still alive and practicing medicine and everything. I do agree that people get very hysterical about vaccines. I read that there are basically two types of people when it comes to vaccinations, those that worry about what could go wrong if they don't get the shot and those that worry about what could go wrong if they do. People make emotional decisions about getting the vaccine instead of taking a cold, hard look at the stats. On the vaccine, chances of death or disability are far higher for those not getting the vaccine than those getting it. Some people are convinced that they have low immune systems, whatever that means, and they do or will get the flu with a flu shot. I am convinced that most people who say they have the flu really mean they have a bad cold. I also think that a lot of people are terrified of needles. The immediate fear of receiving a poke is so overwhelming that the pain of the poke becomes so magnified in their minds that it is worth getting a disease substantially more painful than any poke because you are not guaranteed to suffer the disease, whereas you are guaranteed to get poked if you opt for a flu shot.
I admit I'm a weird one myself...I understand the poke, but I have trouble with FluMist. Stick a live virus up your nose? Are you NuTz? I know it's attenuated, but what if they didn't quite attenuate the thing completely? It's sheer idiocy, I'm aware. But, we are all very emotional creatures. What we believe is more important than any facts you can float.
3 years ago I had the flu. I know it was the flu cuz they put one of those swabs up my nose to test to see if it was really the flu.
I have a low immune system AT THE MOMENENT. What that means is that AT THE MOMENT my iron is low, as well as other nutrients, vitamins and minerals that need to be in my body to help fight off disease. All I know is I don't want amy flu again. I likely had the real flu 3 times in my life. I am now 54 years old. In the past, the flu turned into pneumonia and other illnesses that were hard to fight off.
At my age, its healthier to get the shot.
I hope we all make it thru this flu season as best as we can.
It's not that I just had a negative experience with doctors. You can't deny, once you do the research, or talk to people who've had botched surgeries or things go wrong in the hospital, that doctors are only human. They make mistakes all the time. There is much to much praise for doctors to save the world, as no one can. And it's sad that people take doctors opinions as the ultimate of all knowledge. That's why 2nd opinions are so important in many cases. I gather from what you've said that you've been with your doctor for some time, and ultimately rely on him/her to make the best judgments for your health. While I do think it's great you've found a fantastic doctor you can trust, you can't trust them all. It's a no brainer that not all doctors out there are as awesome as yours. MANY make mistakes, and/or don't offer factual information. And in my findings for ALL those OB/GYNs to not give factual info to their patients, that's just the beginning of the truth being told. Who really knows what many other doctors are telling their patients? That's why patients doing their own research is so important and not just doing what the doc tells you.
I've talked to my sisters, who are RNs that this vaccine is too new to accurately foretell if they work or not. The vaccines are still being tested. You're one of the guinea pigs.
ETA: I noticed that you and the Champ feel my experience is personal (well, it is but...), but it had to do with a nationwide issue. Not giving credit to what's really going on, especially when Senators have to get involved...that's blatantly ignoring that there's an issue with Doctors communicating with patients. Throw the info aside if it doesn't pertain to you personally, but it's HAPPENING. Whether we want to believe it or not.
I do understand that your experience had to do with a nationwide issue and isn't just based on one personal experience, so I don't mean to be dismissive about it. I just didn't want to comment on that issue in particular because I didn't really understand exactly what you were saying happened and because I don’t think the conclusion about H1N1 vaccine really follows from the argument about amnios & DS kids.
Here are the points on which I agree with you:
1. Yes, of course doctors are only human and they make “mistakes”. (I put mistakes in quotes because I think some decisions are truly mistakes and some are just a result of varying professional opinions.)
2. People shouldn’t think doctors have all the right answers all the time and there is no other knowledge in the world. (There aren’t necessarily right or wrong answers anyway.)
3. Yes, I have an awesome doctor and, no, not all doctors are as awesome as mine.
4. Yes, people should do their own research and get second opinions.
Here are the points where we seem to conflict:
1. I don’t believe that ALL doctors or healthcare professionals or public health servants are in bed with Big Pharma.
2. I do, in general (but of course never always), trust that the medical community (and especially the public health community) has the patients’ and the public’s best interest at heart.
3. I do believe that there are some sources of information that are more valid or reputable than others, and good doctors and epidemiologic data are two of those sources.
I have the impression, by the way, that you think I’m an ignorant sheep of a consumer of anything someone with letters behind his/her name throws at me, who blindly follows doctors as deities without doing my own research or getting second opinions. I want to be clear that that couldn’t be further from the truth.
I do have an excellent doctor who I have seen for more than half my life. I also work with him and many other doctors. I see some of these other docs as a patient as well. I always do my research and ask all the other docs their opinions on medical subjects. I am fortunate to have access to a wealth of medical data and professional opinions, not all of which always agree.
I am also fortunate to be good friends with many doctors, and I know with 100% certainty that they have nothing but their patients’ (and their families’, and their own, and my) best interests at heart and have absolutely no conflict of interest with drug companies. They are people, like you and me, who fight to keep for-profit interests out of medical care. I guess I feel the need to defend them.
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
It depends on how you define "much bigger health threat". Today, with the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus accounting for 99% of the flu we are seeing, what makes it a bigger threat is that most people don't have any immunity to this virus as they do to the regular flu virus. (They think maybe elderly people do have some immunity.) So the issue is that this will spread much more quickly and easily than the regular seasonal flu. So fewer people were at high risk of getting a really bad case of the normal flu strain because they had some immunity, but now that people don't have immunity they are at higher risk and vaccination is being more strongly encouraged to combat that higher risk.
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
My suspicion is that you are correct about that. I don't recall anyone ever getting a flu vaccine when i was a kid. now even walgreen's gives them away. and every year there's a new panicked epidemic... avian flu, swine flu, SARS... and every year... like 10 people die in an impoverished country and that's it. this is all a huge hoax to drum up business. it's a flu people. i bet 99% of everyone on this forum do not even know anyone who knows anyone else that even heard of someone dying of a fucking flu.
and if i get it and go down, +1 for mother nature. a little natural selection might not be such a bad thing for this overpopulated planet.
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
My suspicion is that you are correct about that. I don't recall anyone ever getting a flu vaccine when i was a kid. now even walgreen's gives them away. and every year there's a new panicked epidemic... avian flu, swine flu, SARS... and every year... like 10 people die in an impoverished country and that's it. this is all a huge hoax to drum up business. it's a flu people. i bet 99% of everyone on this forum do not even know anyone who knows anyone else that even heard of someone dying of a fucking flu.
and if i get it and go down, +1 for mother nature. a little natural selection might not be such a bad thing for this overpopulated planet.
I think it is a little bit of both I mean on one hand yes there is money in the hype and ratings involved in news stations over hyping any sort of minor outbreak. On the other hand the flu outbreak in 1918 killed more people than AIDS ever has. And most of the people were young strong people.
Also as far as the money thing. I am not sure how much money there really is in flu shots. I mean there can't be that much profit in them if they are given away. If you are a pharmacutical company the real profit is in curing things like baldness and erectile disfunction.
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
My suspicion is that you are correct about that. I don't recall anyone ever getting a flu vaccine when i was a kid. now even walgreen's gives them away. and every year there's a new panicked epidemic... avian flu, swine flu, SARS... and every year... like 10 people die in an impoverished country and that's it. this is all a huge hoax to drum up business. it's a flu people. i bet 99% of everyone on this forum do not even know anyone who knows anyone else that even heard of someone dying of a fucking flu.
and if i get it and go down, +1 for mother nature. a little natural selection might not be such a bad thing for this overpopulated planet.
I think it is a little bit of both I mean on one hand yes there is money in the hype and ratings involved in news stations over hyping any sort of minor outbreak. On the other hand the flu outbreak in 1918 killed more people than AIDS ever has. And most of the people were young strong people.
Also as far as the money thing. I am not sure how much money there really is in flu shots. I mean there can't be that much profit in them if they are given away. If you are a pharmacutical company the real profit is in curing things like baldness and erectile disfunction.
they day the cure baldness is the day i cease criticizing the drug companies and become their biggest supporter
I wouldn't tell anyone not to get the vaccine. I do not trust the manufactorers or suppliers at all. Let me say this. As was stated earlier, the profit margins on these vaccines are huge! I was a store manager for a major drug/retail store for 5 years. We had to push the sales of vaccines hard. When it was found that the wrong strains were chosen (as is the case most of the time) we still pushed for sales. That is a scare tactic for profit. That being said, if it makes you feel better, do it.
The problem with saying most deaths from H1N1 were due to UNDERLYING other medical conditions, is that EVERYONE has some history of an underlying medical condition as defined by the health insurance companies. So tell people, for example only, if you have kidney problems don't get the vaccine, if you are on certain types of medication, don't get the vaccine. Tell people what differential conditions may be harmful between the live vaccine and the shot?
People need informed options - not hype. People should want to know what preventive measures their State and Federal government have imposed regarding these factory lagoons that produce these diseases?
It's just like the rush to impose 'mandatory' Gardasil shots.
On June 8, 2006, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved Gardasil, the first vaccine designed to prevent cervical cancer in girls and women. Gardasil, manufactured by Merck & Co., is for use in girls ages 9 to 26, and targets the human papillomavirus (HPV) strains linked to most cervical cancers.
Less than a year later, Gardasil has reportedly caused the deaths of at least three females – one died just three hours after getting the Gardasil vaccine.
On May 23, 2007, the public interest group Judicial Watch released documents obtained from the FDA, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, detailing 1,637 reports of adverse reactions to Gardasil. Three deaths were related to the vaccine. One physician's assistant reported that a female patient "died of a blood clot three hours after getting the Gardasil vaccine." Two other reports, on girls 12 and 19, reported deaths relating to heart problems and/or blood clotting.
Of the 1,637 adverse reactions to Gardasil reported to the FDA since the drug was on the market, there were 371 serious reactions. Of the 42 women who received the vaccine while pregnant, 18 experienced side effects ranging from spontaneous abortion to fetal abnormalities.
Side effects to Gardasil, as reported by Merck:
* Pelvic pain
* Severe stomach pain
* Pain, swelling or stiffness in joints
* Pain, swelling, redness or itching at the injection site
* Mild fever
* Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, upset stomach
* Dizziness
* Runny or stuffy nose, sore throat, cough
* Muscle pain
According to the FDA data obtained by Judicial Watch, more serious side effects have occurred in Gardasil patients, including paralysis, Bells Palsy, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, and seizures.
Merck has dismissed the adverse events in the females who had taken the vaccine, stating that the problems are probably unrelated. The FDA and also the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) add that the three deaths were unlikely to have been caused by Gardasil. The CDC said that two of the women were taking birth-control pills and died from blood clots, a known risk of contraceptive medication. The third, a 12-year-old girl, suffered from heart disease and died from a heart inflammation brought on by the flu.
About 16 states are considering mandating that Gardasil be given to public school children. The state of Virginia passed such a bill into law. Since its June 2006 introduction, Merck has distributed more than five million doses of Gardasil in the U.S. The vaccine is administered in three shots over a period of six months.
What did Merck blame the deaths and adverse reactions on, underlying existing pre-conditions.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
I do understand that your experience had to do with a nationwide issue and isn't just based on one personal experience, so I don't mean to be dismissive about it. I just didn't want to comment on that issue in particular because I didn't really understand exactly what you were saying happened and because I don’t think the conclusion about H1N1 vaccine really follows from the argument about amnios & DS kids.
Here are the points on which I agree with you:
1. Yes, of course doctors are only human and they make “mistakes”. (I put mistakes in quotes because I think some decisions are truly mistakes and some are just a result of varying professional opinions.)
2. People shouldn’t think doctors have all the right answers all the time and there is no other knowledge in the world. (There aren’t necessarily right or wrong answers anyway.)
3. Yes, I have an awesome doctor and, no, not all doctors are as awesome as mine.
4. Yes, people should do their own research and get second opinions.
Here are the points where we seem to conflict:
1. I don’t believe that ALL doctors or healthcare professionals or public health servants are in bed with Big Pharma.
2. I do, in general (but of course never always), trust that the medical community (and especially the public health community) has the patients’ and the public’s best interest at heart.
3. I do believe that there are some sources of information that are more valid or reputable than others, and good doctors and epidemiologic data are two of those sources.
I have the impression, by the way, that you think I’m an ignorant sheep of a consumer of anything someone with letters behind his/her name throws at me, who blindly follows doctors as deities without doing my own research or getting second opinions. I want to be clear that that couldn’t be further from the truth.
I do have an excellent doctor who I have seen for more than half my life. I also work with him and many other doctors. I see some of these other docs as a patient as well. I always do my research and ask all the other docs their opinions on medical subjects. I am fortunate to have access to a wealth of medical data and professional opinions, not all of which always agree.
I am also fortunate to be good friends with many doctors, and I know with 100% certainty that they have nothing but their patients’ (and their families’, and their own, and my) best interests at heart and have absolutely no conflict of interest with drug companies. They are people, like you and me, who fight to keep for-profit interests out of medical care. I guess I feel the need to defend them.
But doctors aren't hiring their own pharmacists whipping up potions under the table either. So they are, in fact, in cahoots with Big Pharma if they're practicing under a U.S. license. I understand you feel the need to defend the doctors, they need someone too. And I'm sure a lot of doctors really do care about their patients. But they're tied to the health insurance industry, which is tied to Big Pharma. So they have their hands tied, regardless of what they're telling you.
So...Is the hospital near you making the H1N1 vaccine mandatory to all staff? They're certainly trying to do that here...without a go, thankfully for the few who will stand up to taking any vaccine as a mandatory duty.
But doctors aren't hiring their own pharmacists whipping up potions under the table either. So they are, in fact, in cahoots with Big Pharma if they're practicing under a U.S. license. I understand you feel the need to defend the doctors, they need someone too. And I'm sure a lot of doctors really do care about their patients. But they're tied to the health insurance industry, which is tied to Big Pharma. So they have their hands tied, regardless of what they're telling you.
I think I'm just not understanding your logic here.
So...Is the hospital near you making the H1N1 vaccine mandatory to all staff? They're certainly trying to do that here...without a go, thankfully for the few who will stand up to taking any vaccine as a mandatory duty.
But doctors aren't hiring their own pharmacists whipping up potions under the table either. So they are, in fact, in cahoots with Big Pharma if they're practicing under a U.S. license. I understand you feel the need to defend the doctors, they need someone too. And I'm sure a lot of doctors really do care about their patients. But they're tied to the health insurance industry, which is tied to Big Pharma. So they have their hands tied, regardless of what they're telling you.
I think I'm just not understanding your logic here.
You said: "I don’t believe that ALL doctors or healthcare professionals or public health servants are in bed with Big Pharma." While I agree public health workers are working more for the greater good of merely reaching out to those who need it, and some services are free, I'm saying that if you're lisenced, you do have to prescribe drugs under the Big Pharma tent. There's no indy pharmacies, unless you want to count someone's basement lab.
The reason I brought up my experience with DS and doctors, is because there's too much overall faith in doctors in general, and I've been seeing way too many people everywhere (not just on here and not you personally) that think that doctors' opinion or whatever comes out of their mouths is the Bible. I don't have a lot of faith in Doctors in general, I've heard of a lot of botched surgeries (to people I know), and just plain stupid mistakes made in the hospitals, keeping patients in the hospital longer (also to people I know). I have had some great doctors. But the great ones certainly aren't the majority.
So...Is the hospital near you making the H1N1 vaccine mandatory to all staff? They're certainly trying to do that here...without a go, thankfully for the few who will stand up to taking any vaccine as a mandatory duty.
Upstate NY, Capital District area. Actually, the hospital I use is talking about mandating the H1N1 to all staff, and while some people stood up and said NO, Many hospital workers said they'd do anything to keep their jobs. Which is wrong.
how else is a doctor supposed to practice medicine if he/she doesn't work with pharmaceutical/insurance companies? sometimes i think people lose sight of the 'greater good'...should one simply not choose to practice medicine b/c of these things? or perhaps they should follow their desires to help people thru medicine, and work to change from within. i think that's what it comes down to on a lot of things....
-doctors operating within our current healthcare system
-our president(and any other elected official who truly wants to affect change) working within our current governement
-hell, even pearl jam making a deal with target
you've got to be IN the system to change the system....most change comes from within.
i also think that's where the disconnect is in this discussion, b/c basically ALL doctors are being dismissed....why? b/c they are doctors within our current system. :? should we just not have ANY medical care whatsoever then?
it's interesting too, b/c i have not heard of any mandatory H1N1 vaccinations in my area, NYC. i admit i haven't been paying too closely attention to it, but none the less.....seems pretty voluntary thus far.
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
I'm sure from the pharma side, money has something to do with it. But, I don't think that's the real story. Why should I get my kids vaccinated against chicken pox? It's more money to pharma. Save the co-pay money and have some sushi, right? I think the real idea is that if you can save someone some misery, lost time from work and maybe a loss of life, you might be doing the right thing. I had the chicken pox when I was young and lived. My kids both had the chicken pox when they were young...the vaccine came out the year after they'd had the disease. They lived. Who needed the vaccine, right?
I did. I hated seeing my kids suffer like that--the nights of howling misery. And...once you have the chicken pox, you have a better than 50/50 chance of getting shingles when you're older. And shingles can make the chicken pox look pretty good. (My sister-in-law, who shouldn't be old enough to get shingles, did. This cost her and her family dearly, as when her daughter delivered her twins early, mom couldn't go and be of help since a person with shingles shouldn't be around preemies with health isses. This was horrendously psychologically distressing to my sister-in-law...and the shingles themselves were outrageously painful and lasted for months and caused her to miss a great deal of work.) I will be at risk for shingles and so will my kids. Mercifully, my kids' kids probably will not be. All because of a vaccine.
I think that since doctors see this kind of thing hourly, they recommend vaccines for everyone not because they want to boost their stock portfolios, but because they wish to help people avoid suffering and death to the greatest extent possible. In the case of the H1N1 vaccine, most people are not going to pay a dime for the vaccine. Most health insurance companies will cover the cost of administration because of the profit motive...it costs them much less to give you the vaccine than it costs them to put you in the ICU. In fact, it costs them much less to give you the vaccine for free than to even treat a milder flu with Tamiflu, etc., and then provide you with antibiotics, etc., for pneumonia you may develop as a result. The profit motive is motivating insurance companies to urge you to get a shot...not because they are enriching big pharma, but because they are enriching themselves when you don't require any further treatment after making a good investment in providing you with a free vaccination.
It is true that Big Pharma profits no matter what the motive is for urging you to get the shot...whether altruism (your doctor) or someone else's profit motive (give you a free shot so they don't have to do much else for you saving them millions). But, just because Big Pharma skips all the way to the bank is not a good reason to refuse any vaccine. Instead of thinking about punishing Big Pharma for making money, you should probably think about doing the best thing you can for you. 20 years ago few people got the vaccine because they thought if you got the vaccine you'd get the flu for sure. Of course, twenty years ago, most people thought if you were gay you were a sexual deviant child molester who should be jailed or shot and that you could dump as much mercury in the ocean as you wanted and never suffer a consequence. More people get vaccines today because they see the error of their thinking and have personally profited from not having the flu. Big Pharma is not always a win-lose game to play...they win, you lose. Sometimes, it is possible for it be a win-win when each side profits in its own way.
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
My suspicion is that you are correct about that. I don't recall anyone ever getting a flu vaccine when i was a kid. now even walgreen's gives them away. and every year there's a new panicked epidemic... avian flu, swine flu, SARS... and every year... like 10 people die in an impoverished country and that's it. this is all a huge hoax to drum up business. it's a flu people. i bet 99% of everyone on this forum do not even know anyone who knows anyone else that even heard of someone dying of a fucking flu.
and if i get it and go down, +1 for mother nature. a little natural selection might not be such a bad thing for this overpopulated planet.
What a nice thought. Why don't you write letters to the parents of the 76 American children that H1N1 has killed so far this year telling them what a great thing it was for the planet that their child died?
"The regular flu kills between 46 and 88 children a year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That suggests deaths from the new H1N1 virus could dramatically outpace children's deaths from seasonal flu, if swine flu continues to spread as it has."
While I agree public health workers are working more for the greater good of merely reaching out to those who need it, and some services are free, I'm saying that if you're lisenced, you do have to prescribe drugs under the Big Pharma tent.
So public health workers are motivated by the greater good - not by profit - and they still say to get vaccinated.
I don't think just because the drugs you prescribe are made by for-profit companies precludes them from actually being beneficial. And I don't think they would be so widely prescribed/recommended by healthcare professionals if they weren't beneficial.
I think JR8805 and D2D are explaining what I mean much better than I am.
it's interesting too, b/c i have not heard of any mandatory H1N1 vaccinations in my area, NYC. i admit i haven't been paying too closely attention to it, but none the less.....seems pretty voluntary thus far.
NEW YORK (CBS) Parents may have a choice when it comes to vaccinating their kids, but that's not the case for New York's health care workers.
It's a move that has some workers feeling sick.
Outside New York's Capitol, health care workers vowed to fight an unprecedented order from state health officials – a requirement for every health care worker to get seasonal and H1N1 flu shots, or face the possibility of getting fired.
Physical therapist Carole Blueweiss is weighing that risk.
"I'm healthy and I have a strong immune system, and I don't want to feel like someone is telling me what to put into my body to protect me," Blueweiss said.
But the state maintains that the objective is to reduce the possibility of infecting patients.
"Every flue season, in New York for example, we have about 160 outbreaks of flu inside health care institutions," Dr. Richard Daines, New York State Commissioner of Health, said.
In past years, when vaccinations were voluntary, only 40 percent of the state's 925,000 health care workers got vaccinated.
"That's kind of intolerable – that patients should come to a hospital and not know that the health care workers are vaccinated," Dr. Daines said.
But Blueweiss, who plans to give her son the seasonal vaccine, doesn't trust H1N1 for him or herself. In her 15 years as a physical therapist at a large New York hospital, she says she's never gotten a flu shot and never had the flu.
"We are health care workers, and we are not even given the credit or the respect to make the decision," Blueweiss said. "It's outrageous, and it feels criminal and anti-American."
While New York has the only state-wide mandate, a number of private and public hospitals are also requiring employees to take flu shots.
There is also a strong resistance to the vaccine from the general public. A new Harvard University poll shows that only four in 10 adults intend to take the vaccine themselves, and only six in 10 plan to give it to their children.
New York's mandate affects health care workers in hospitals, outpatient clinics and home care services.
shouldn't people that have to be around the high risk patients be immunized from some of these strains?
why is this such a conspiracy? maybe some agency is making bank on a bs flu strain, and they're selling vaccines that we dont' need...but these are health professionals...they are around high risk individuals all day,,,the old and sick...they of all people should be immunized.
shouldn't people that have to be around the high risk patients be immunized from some of these strains?
why is this such a conspiracy? maybe some agency is making bank on a bs flu strain, and they're selling vaccines that we dont' need...but these are health professionals...they are around high risk individuals all day,,,the old and sick...they of all people should be immunized.
1. The H1N1 vaccine is still in testing phase. It's also been fast-tracked, with very limited research concerning the short term as well as long term side effects.
2. It has not been FDA approved. (It takes 7 years to approve a new drug for usage by the public)
3. It is not an emergency situation where it's spreading like wildfire.
4. There are safety issues. Formaldehyde and mercury have been found in several cases so far.
5. NYS Health Board does not entrust their medical professionals to "do the right thing" for the patient's health, but rather force them?
6. Health professionals are not the only people coming into contact with many sick people on a daily basis. What about teachers, students, grocery store clerks?
6. It's against our civil liberties. I know there's a bunch of Libs on here. How would you feel about getting forced by state gov't to be injected or YOU LOSE YOUR JOB?
shouldn't people that have to be around the high risk patients be immunized from some of these strains?
why is this such a conspiracy? maybe some agency is making bank on a bs flu strain, and they're selling vaccines that we dont' need...but these are health professionals...they are around high risk individuals all day,,,the old and sick...they of all people should be immunized.
1. The H1N1 vaccine is still in testing phase. It's also been fast-tracked, with very limited research concerning the short term as well as long term side effects.
2. It has not been FDA approved. (It takes 7 years to approve a new drug for usage by the public)
3. It is not an emergency situation where it's spreading like wildfire.
4. There are safety issues. Formaldehyde and mercury have been found in several cases so far.
5. NYS Health Board does not entrust their medical professionals to "do the right thing" for the patient's health, but rather force them?
6. Health professionals are not the only people coming into contact with many sick people on a daily basis. What about teachers, students, grocery store clerks?
6. It's against our civil liberties. I know there's a bunch of Libs on here. How would you feel about getting forced by state gov't to be injected or YOU LOSE YOUR JOB?
the idea of it being "forced" seems to be taking over the common sense behind the rule. it should be up to the individual, but really this is common sense. you give some 90 year old some hard core flu strain his/her death is on your hands. it makes more sense to get immunized so that scenario doesn't play out.
shouldn't people that have to be around the high risk patients be immunized from some of these strains?
why is this such a conspiracy? maybe some agency is making bank on a bs flu strain, and they're selling vaccines that we dont' need...but these are health professionals...they are around high risk individuals all day,,,the old and sick...they of all people should be immunized.
6. Health professionals are not the only people coming into contact with many sick people on a daily basis. What about teachers, students, grocery store clerks?
jeanwah, i've read some of your comments in the threads regarding your experience with amnio and DS, and i just want to say that i really admire the passion that you show here, trying to ensure that everyone is educated. i mean that sincerely.
just a couple of points though. i agree that health care workers are more than likely not the only ones coming into contact with sick people. the point here though is, that some healthcare workers are dealing with very sick people all day, every day. teachers, students and grocery store clerks are not.
people need to educate themselves and then make an informed decision about what they feel is best for them. as a health care worker who mostly deals with really sick people, i personally feel the need to make sure (to the best of my ability), that i am not transmitting disease and making a serious problem the patient already has, even worse. but that's just me.
nobody i work with has been forced to have the vaccination or been threatened with losing their job. NY State is the only state mandating it for healthcare workers, or so i believe. so far i have not seen any reports of peoples employment being terminated, and i really hope it does not come to that. i almost feel like they are just calling their bluff. those that are dead against it will stick together, and then what will they do?
jeanwah, i've read some of your comments in the threads regarding your experience with amnio and DS, and i just want to say that i really admire the passion that you show here, trying to ensure that everyone is educated. i mean that sincerely.
just a couple of points though. i agree that health care workers are more than likely not the only ones coming into contact with sick people. the point here though is, that some healthcare workers are dealing with very sick people all day, every day. teachers, students and grocery store clerks are not.
people need to educate themselves and then make an informed decision about what they feel is best for them. as a health care worker who mostly deals with really sick people, i personally feel the need to make sure (to the best of my ability), that i am not transmitting disease and making a serious problem the patient already has, even worse. but that's just me.
nobody i work with has been forced to have the vaccination or been threatened with losing their job. NY State is the only state mandating it for healthcare workers, or so i believe. so far i have not seen any reports of peoples employment being terminated, and i really hope it does not come to that. i almost feel like they are just calling their bluff. those that are dead against it will stick together, and then what will they do?
Thanks, TA.
You're right, there are so much more healthcare workers dealing with the sick on a daily basis, that's why that point wasn't high on the list. The little bit of statistics they have for sickness and death of Swine Flu is pregnant women and very young. I'll have to find the numbers, but the elderly and those who have weak immunity aren't the highest on the list. So it's not hitting the general populace that the regular flu tends to hit. At least not yet. Still not a reason to not be careful, but just wanted to mention that.
Yeah, NY is the ONLY state to do this. I just read an article yesterday about the state insisting on following through with the firings if the workers don't get vaccinated by the end of Nov, I think. It's big news here, as the more people against it, the more we hear about it. I don't know if they'll bluff, certainly I hope so. Health care is one of the few industries that's always hiring and always in need of more nurses. So they can't really afford to lose people right now. But who knows.
The little bit of statistics they have for sickness and death of Swine Flu is pregnant women and very young. I'll have to find the numbers, but the elderly and those who have weak immunity aren't the highest on the list. So it's not hitting the general populace that the regular flu tends to hit. At least not yet.
Do you mean it's not hitting the same populace that the seasonal flu tends to hit or do you mean the seasonal flu tends to hit the general populace and the swine flu isn't hitting the general populace? If it's the latter, I'd be interested to see your data on that.
Here's what the CDC has to say about it:
- Usually only 10% of the people who die from the seasonal flu are under age 65. With this year's H1N1, 91% of the people dying are under age 65.
- Total influenza hospitalization rates for laboratory-confirmed influenza are higher than expected for this time of year for adults and children. And for children 5-17 and adults 18-49 years of age, hospitalization rates from April – October 2009 exceed average flu season rates (for October through April).
- The proportion of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) based on the 122 Cities Report has increased and now exceeds what is normally expected at this time of year. In addition, 19 flu-related pediatric deaths were reported this week; 16 of these deaths were confirmed 2009 H1N1 and 3 were unsubtyped influenza A and likely to be 2009 H1N1. A total of 76 laboratory confirmed 2009 H1N1 pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC since April.
- Thirty-seven states are reporting widespread influenza activity at this time. Any reports of widespread influenza activity in September and October are very unusual.
- Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.
Also, I don't understand why you say there is very little data available and it's mostly data on pregnant women and young children. Seems to me that there's plenty of data available and it's not just limited to those groups.
1. The H1N1 vaccine is still in testing phase. It's also been fast-tracked, with very limited research concerning the short term as well as long term side effects.
2. It has not been FDA approved. (It takes 7 years to approve a new drug for usage by the public)
"Clinical trials conducted by the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have shown that the new H1N1 vaccine is both safe and effective. The FDA has licensed it. There have been no safety shortcuts.
It is produced exactly the same way the seasonal flu vaccine is produced every year. It is simply a new virus strain. In fact, had H1N1 struck this country earlier than this spring, the H1N1 strain probably would have been included as part of this year’s seasonal flu shot.
Millions of Americans get the seasonal flu vaccine each year without any problems. Still, understanding that some Americans have concerns about “new” vaccines, the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have conducted more rigorous tests on the H1N1 vaccine than they do on other flu vaccines, and there have been no red flags from these clinical trials.
Also, CDC has stepped up surveillance efforts to track the H1N1 vaccine and any possible adverse events. Since it is so closely related to the seasonal flu vaccine, we do not expect to see serious side effects. But we are taking all the necessary steps to promote and monitor safety.
Our top doctors and scientists believe the risk of the flu, especially for pregnant women, children, and people with underlying health conditions, is higher than any risk that might come from the H1N1 vaccine."
"Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent
FDA approved these vaccines as a strain change to each manufacturer’s seasonal influenza vaccine. There is considerable experience with seasonal influenza vaccine development and production and influenza vaccines produced by this technology have a long and successful track record of safety and effectiveness in the United States. The Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines will undergo the usual testing and lot release procedures that are in place for seasonal influenza vaccines."
The little bit of statistics they have for sickness and death of Swine Flu is pregnant women and very young. I'll have to find the numbers, but the elderly and those who have weak immunity aren't the highest on the list. So it's not hitting the general populace that the regular flu tends to hit. At least not yet.
Do you mean it's not hitting the same populace that the seasonal flu tends to hit or do you mean the seasonal flu tends to hit the general populace and the swine flu isn't hitting the general populace? If it's the latter, I'd be interested to see your data on that.
Here's what the CDC has to say about it:
- Usually only 10% of the people who die from the seasonal flu are under age 65. With this year's H1N1, 91% of the people dying are under age 65.
- Total influenza hospitalization rates for laboratory-confirmed influenza are higher than expected for this time of year for adults and children. And for children 5-17 and adults 18-49 years of age, hospitalization rates from April – October 2009 exceed average flu season rates (for October through April).
- The proportion of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) based on the 122 Cities Report has increased and now exceeds what is normally expected at this time of year. In addition, 19 flu-related pediatric deaths were reported this week; 16 of these deaths were confirmed 2009 H1N1 and 3 were unsubtyped influenza A and likely to be 2009 H1N1. A total of 76 laboratory confirmed 2009 H1N1 pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC since April.
- Thirty-seven states are reporting widespread influenza activity at this time. Any reports of widespread influenza activity in September and October are very unusual.
- Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.
Also, I don't understand why you say there is very little data available and it's mostly data on pregnant women and young children. Seems to me that there's plenty of data available and it's not just limited to those groups.
I meant the former (answering your first question). It's been shown that the those who have gotten sick and those who have died, the majority are pregnant women and the very young for Swine Flu. The first two on the list on the CDC page are these two groups, because they're most at risk.
There's little data available because it's been so short lived. Really, all the data you find on CDC has been since the whole Swine Flu rage came about. So how many months has it been?
And the CDC website -- granted, it's tagline says that it's "Your online source for credible Health Information", yet it's a gov't site. And there's ads on it for Flu.gov, another gov site. And it's sponsored by USA.GOV. It's not a medical journal, it's a government site with flu information. I'll continue my research on legit medical sites, thanks.
Comments
thanks for the info ... it's interesting because up here - all they are really telling us to do is wash our hands and stay at home if we're sick ...
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte ... g.php#faq1
yes - they have vaccines available but it definitely looks like they are treating it as if you want to take it - take it kind of way ...
It's not that I just had a negative experience with doctors. You can't deny, once you do the research, or talk to people who've had botched surgeries or things go wrong in the hospital, that doctors are only human. They make mistakes all the time. There is much to much praise for doctors to save the world, as no one can. And it's sad that people take doctors opinions as the ultimate of all knowledge. That's why 2nd opinions are so important in many cases. I gather from what you've said that you've been with your doctor for some time, and ultimately rely on him/her to make the best judgments for your health. While I do think it's great you've found a fantastic doctor you can trust, you can't trust them all. It's a no brainer that not all doctors out there are as awesome as yours. MANY make mistakes, and/or don't offer factual information. And in my findings for ALL those OB/GYNs to not give factual info to their patients, that's just the beginning of the truth being told. Who really knows what many other doctors are telling their patients? That's why patients doing their own research is so important and not just doing what the doc tells you.
I've talked to my sisters, who are RNs that this vaccine is too new to accurately foretell if they work or not. The vaccines are still being tested. You're one of the guinea pigs.
ETA: I noticed that you and the Champ feel my experience is personal (well, it is but...), but it had to do with a nationwide issue. Not giving credit to what's really going on, especially when Senators have to get involved...that's blatantly ignoring that there's an issue with Doctors communicating with patients. Throw the info aside if it doesn't pertain to you personally, but it's HAPPENING. Whether we want to believe it or not.
although i do believe that those that are on the high risk or work in the health care profession should take the vaccine and do believe that everyone has to make their own decisions based on informed decisions ...
My question is this - is the flu a much bigger health threat today than it was 20 years ago?
20 years ago, there was some flu vaccines available, but it seems that only a small number of people were getting them.
Today, it seems as if all of the information you see says that EVERYONE should get them.
Why is that? My thought is that it's mostly about the $$$$.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The majority of us aren't going to have either as we felt that with the flu one there was no guarantee that the scientists who decide which flu strain is going to be the one to watch for this year would be correct. With H1N1 we pretty much decided that it wasn't necessary for us as we weren't in the high risk category and didn't want initial side effects. A few people did say that they wouldn't take the risk of catching either and were going to have both.
We were however, offered an incentive to get the jab, which was ......
................................... .............................. a sticker.
I think I can live without the sticker.
very true!
i am registered for my seasonal flu vaccination 10.28. i'll leave H1N1 to all of you, for now.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I have a low immune system AT THE MOMENENT. What that means is that AT THE MOMENT my iron is low, as well as other nutrients, vitamins and minerals that need to be in my body to help fight off disease. All I know is I don't want amy flu again. I likely had the real flu 3 times in my life. I am now 54 years old. In the past, the flu turned into pneumonia and other illnesses that were hard to fight off.
At my age, its healthier to get the shot.
I hope we all make it thru this flu season as best as we can.
I do understand that your experience had to do with a nationwide issue and isn't just based on one personal experience, so I don't mean to be dismissive about it. I just didn't want to comment on that issue in particular because I didn't really understand exactly what you were saying happened and because I don’t think the conclusion about H1N1 vaccine really follows from the argument about amnios & DS kids.
Here are the points on which I agree with you:
1. Yes, of course doctors are only human and they make “mistakes”. (I put mistakes in quotes because I think some decisions are truly mistakes and some are just a result of varying professional opinions.)
2. People shouldn’t think doctors have all the right answers all the time and there is no other knowledge in the world. (There aren’t necessarily right or wrong answers anyway.)
3. Yes, I have an awesome doctor and, no, not all doctors are as awesome as mine.
4. Yes, people should do their own research and get second opinions.
Here are the points where we seem to conflict:
1. I don’t believe that ALL doctors or healthcare professionals or public health servants are in bed with Big Pharma.
2. I do, in general (but of course never always), trust that the medical community (and especially the public health community) has the patients’ and the public’s best interest at heart.
3. I do believe that there are some sources of information that are more valid or reputable than others, and good doctors and epidemiologic data are two of those sources.
I have the impression, by the way, that you think I’m an ignorant sheep of a consumer of anything someone with letters behind his/her name throws at me, who blindly follows doctors as deities without doing my own research or getting second opinions. I want to be clear that that couldn’t be further from the truth.
I do have an excellent doctor who I have seen for more than half my life. I also work with him and many other doctors. I see some of these other docs as a patient as well. I always do my research and ask all the other docs their opinions on medical subjects. I am fortunate to have access to a wealth of medical data and professional opinions, not all of which always agree.
I am also fortunate to be good friends with many doctors, and I know with 100% certainty that they have nothing but their patients’ (and their families’, and their own, and my) best interests at heart and have absolutely no conflict of interest with drug companies. They are people, like you and me, who fight to keep for-profit interests out of medical care. I guess I feel the need to defend them.
It depends on how you define "much bigger health threat". Today, with the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus accounting for 99% of the flu we are seeing, what makes it a bigger threat is that most people don't have any immunity to this virus as they do to the regular flu virus. (They think maybe elderly people do have some immunity.) So the issue is that this will spread much more quickly and easily than the regular seasonal flu. So fewer people were at high risk of getting a really bad case of the normal flu strain because they had some immunity, but now that people don't have immunity they are at higher risk and vaccination is being more strongly encouraged to combat that higher risk.
My suspicion is that you are correct about that. I don't recall anyone ever getting a flu vaccine when i was a kid. now even walgreen's gives them away. and every year there's a new panicked epidemic... avian flu, swine flu, SARS... and every year... like 10 people die in an impoverished country and that's it. this is all a huge hoax to drum up business. it's a flu people. i bet 99% of everyone on this forum do not even know anyone who knows anyone else that even heard of someone dying of a fucking flu.
and if i get it and go down, +1 for mother nature. a little natural selection might not be such a bad thing for this overpopulated planet.
I think it is a little bit of both I mean on one hand yes there is money in the hype and ratings involved in news stations over hyping any sort of minor outbreak. On the other hand the flu outbreak in 1918 killed more people than AIDS ever has. And most of the people were young strong people.
Also as far as the money thing. I am not sure how much money there really is in flu shots. I mean there can't be that much profit in them if they are given away. If you are a pharmacutical company the real profit is in curing things like baldness and erectile disfunction.
they day the cure baldness is the day i cease criticizing the drug companies and become their biggest supporter
People need informed options - not hype. People should want to know what preventive measures their State and Federal government have imposed regarding these factory lagoons that produce these diseases?
It's just like the rush to impose 'mandatory' Gardasil shots.
On June 8, 2006, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved Gardasil, the first vaccine designed to prevent cervical cancer in girls and women. Gardasil, manufactured by Merck & Co., is for use in girls ages 9 to 26, and targets the human papillomavirus (HPV) strains linked to most cervical cancers.
Less than a year later, Gardasil has reportedly caused the deaths of at least three females – one died just three hours after getting the Gardasil vaccine.
On May 23, 2007, the public interest group Judicial Watch released documents obtained from the FDA, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, detailing 1,637 reports of adverse reactions to Gardasil. Three deaths were related to the vaccine. One physician's assistant reported that a female patient "died of a blood clot three hours after getting the Gardasil vaccine." Two other reports, on girls 12 and 19, reported deaths relating to heart problems and/or blood clotting.
Of the 1,637 adverse reactions to Gardasil reported to the FDA since the drug was on the market, there were 371 serious reactions. Of the 42 women who received the vaccine while pregnant, 18 experienced side effects ranging from spontaneous abortion to fetal abnormalities.
Side effects to Gardasil, as reported by Merck:
* Pelvic pain
* Severe stomach pain
* Pain, swelling or stiffness in joints
* Pain, swelling, redness or itching at the injection site
* Mild fever
* Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, upset stomach
* Dizziness
* Runny or stuffy nose, sore throat, cough
* Muscle pain
According to the FDA data obtained by Judicial Watch, more serious side effects have occurred in Gardasil patients, including paralysis, Bells Palsy, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, and seizures.
Merck has dismissed the adverse events in the females who had taken the vaccine, stating that the problems are probably unrelated. The FDA and also the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) add that the three deaths were unlikely to have been caused by Gardasil. The CDC said that two of the women were taking birth-control pills and died from blood clots, a known risk of contraceptive medication. The third, a 12-year-old girl, suffered from heart disease and died from a heart inflammation brought on by the flu.
About 16 states are considering mandating that Gardasil be given to public school children. The state of Virginia passed such a bill into law. Since its June 2006 introduction, Merck has distributed more than five million doses of Gardasil in the U.S. The vaccine is administered in three shots over a period of six months.
What did Merck blame the deaths and adverse reactions on, underlying existing pre-conditions.
But doctors aren't hiring their own pharmacists whipping up potions under the table either. So they are, in fact, in cahoots with Big Pharma if they're practicing under a U.S. license. I understand you feel the need to defend the doctors, they need someone too. And I'm sure a lot of doctors really do care about their patients. But they're tied to the health insurance industry, which is tied to Big Pharma. So they have their hands tied, regardless of what they're telling you.
So...Is the hospital near you making the H1N1 vaccine mandatory to all staff? They're certainly trying to do that here...without a go, thankfully for the few who will stand up to taking any vaccine as a mandatory duty.
I think I'm just not understanding your logic here.
No. Where do you live, might I ask?
You said: "I don’t believe that ALL doctors or healthcare professionals or public health servants are in bed with Big Pharma." While I agree public health workers are working more for the greater good of merely reaching out to those who need it, and some services are free, I'm saying that if you're lisenced, you do have to prescribe drugs under the Big Pharma tent. There's no indy pharmacies, unless you want to count someone's basement lab.
The reason I brought up my experience with DS and doctors, is because there's too much overall faith in doctors in general, and I've been seeing way too many people everywhere (not just on here and not you personally) that think that doctors' opinion or whatever comes out of their mouths is the Bible. I don't have a lot of faith in Doctors in general, I've heard of a lot of botched surgeries (to people I know), and just plain stupid mistakes made in the hospitals, keeping patients in the hospital longer (also to people I know). I have had some great doctors. But the great ones certainly aren't the majority.
Upstate NY, Capital District area. Actually, the hospital I use is talking about mandating the H1N1 to all staff, and while some people stood up and said NO, Many hospital workers said they'd do anything to keep their jobs. Which is wrong.
-doctors operating within our current healthcare system
-our president(and any other elected official who truly wants to affect change) working within our current governement
-hell, even pearl jam making a deal with target
you've got to be IN the system to change the system....most change comes from within.
i also think that's where the disconnect is in this discussion, b/c basically ALL doctors are being dismissed....why? b/c they are doctors within our current system. :? should we just not have ANY medical care whatsoever then?
it's interesting too, b/c i have not heard of any mandatory H1N1 vaccinations in my area, NYC. i admit i haven't been paying too closely attention to it, but none the less.....seems pretty voluntary thus far.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I'm sure from the pharma side, money has something to do with it. But, I don't think that's the real story. Why should I get my kids vaccinated against chicken pox? It's more money to pharma. Save the co-pay money and have some sushi, right? I think the real idea is that if you can save someone some misery, lost time from work and maybe a loss of life, you might be doing the right thing. I had the chicken pox when I was young and lived. My kids both had the chicken pox when they were young...the vaccine came out the year after they'd had the disease. They lived. Who needed the vaccine, right?
I did. I hated seeing my kids suffer like that--the nights of howling misery. And...once you have the chicken pox, you have a better than 50/50 chance of getting shingles when you're older. And shingles can make the chicken pox look pretty good. (My sister-in-law, who shouldn't be old enough to get shingles, did. This cost her and her family dearly, as when her daughter delivered her twins early, mom couldn't go and be of help since a person with shingles shouldn't be around preemies with health isses. This was horrendously psychologically distressing to my sister-in-law...and the shingles themselves were outrageously painful and lasted for months and caused her to miss a great deal of work.) I will be at risk for shingles and so will my kids. Mercifully, my kids' kids probably will not be. All because of a vaccine.
I think that since doctors see this kind of thing hourly, they recommend vaccines for everyone not because they want to boost their stock portfolios, but because they wish to help people avoid suffering and death to the greatest extent possible. In the case of the H1N1 vaccine, most people are not going to pay a dime for the vaccine. Most health insurance companies will cover the cost of administration because of the profit motive...it costs them much less to give you the vaccine than it costs them to put you in the ICU. In fact, it costs them much less to give you the vaccine for free than to even treat a milder flu with Tamiflu, etc., and then provide you with antibiotics, etc., for pneumonia you may develop as a result. The profit motive is motivating insurance companies to urge you to get a shot...not because they are enriching big pharma, but because they are enriching themselves when you don't require any further treatment after making a good investment in providing you with a free vaccination.
It is true that Big Pharma profits no matter what the motive is for urging you to get the shot...whether altruism (your doctor) or someone else's profit motive (give you a free shot so they don't have to do much else for you saving them millions). But, just because Big Pharma skips all the way to the bank is not a good reason to refuse any vaccine. Instead of thinking about punishing Big Pharma for making money, you should probably think about doing the best thing you can for you. 20 years ago few people got the vaccine because they thought if you got the vaccine you'd get the flu for sure. Of course, twenty years ago, most people thought if you were gay you were a sexual deviant child molester who should be jailed or shot and that you could dump as much mercury in the ocean as you wanted and never suffer a consequence. More people get vaccines today because they see the error of their thinking and have personally profited from not having the flu. Big Pharma is not always a win-lose game to play...they win, you lose. Sometimes, it is possible for it be a win-win when each side profits in its own way.
What a nice thought. Why don't you write letters to the parents of the 76 American children that H1N1 has killed so far this year telling them what a great thing it was for the planet that their child died?
"The regular flu kills between 46 and 88 children a year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That suggests deaths from the new H1N1 virus could dramatically outpace children's deaths from seasonal flu, if swine flu continues to spread as it has."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091009/ap_ ... _swine_flu
So public health workers are motivated by the greater good - not by profit - and they still say to get vaccinated.
I don't think just because the drugs you prescribe are made by for-profit companies precludes them from actually being beneficial. And I don't think they would be so widely prescribed/recommended by healthcare professionals if they weren't beneficial.
I think JR8805 and D2D are explaining what I mean much better than I am.
http://wcbstv.com/health/h1n1.vaccine.m ... 27444.html
Health Workers Resistant To H1N1 Vaccine Mandate
NEW YORK (CBS) Parents may have a choice when it comes to vaccinating their kids, but that's not the case for New York's health care workers.
It's a move that has some workers feeling sick.
Outside New York's Capitol, health care workers vowed to fight an unprecedented order from state health officials – a requirement for every health care worker to get seasonal and H1N1 flu shots, or face the possibility of getting fired.
Physical therapist Carole Blueweiss is weighing that risk.
"I'm healthy and I have a strong immune system, and I don't want to feel like someone is telling me what to put into my body to protect me," Blueweiss said.
But the state maintains that the objective is to reduce the possibility of infecting patients.
"Every flue season, in New York for example, we have about 160 outbreaks of flu inside health care institutions," Dr. Richard Daines, New York State Commissioner of Health, said.
In past years, when vaccinations were voluntary, only 40 percent of the state's 925,000 health care workers got vaccinated.
"That's kind of intolerable – that patients should come to a hospital and not know that the health care workers are vaccinated," Dr. Daines said.
But Blueweiss, who plans to give her son the seasonal vaccine, doesn't trust H1N1 for him or herself. In her 15 years as a physical therapist at a large New York hospital, she says she's never gotten a flu shot and never had the flu.
"We are health care workers, and we are not even given the credit or the respect to make the decision," Blueweiss said. "It's outrageous, and it feels criminal and anti-American."
While New York has the only state-wide mandate, a number of private and public hospitals are also requiring employees to take flu shots.
There is also a strong resistance to the vaccine from the general public. A new Harvard University poll shows that only four in 10 adults intend to take the vaccine themselves, and only six in 10 plan to give it to their children.
New York's mandate affects health care workers in hospitals, outpatient clinics and home care services.
why is this such a conspiracy? maybe some agency is making bank on a bs flu strain, and they're selling vaccines that we dont' need...but these are health professionals...they are around high risk individuals all day,,,the old and sick...they of all people should be immunized.
2. It has not been FDA approved. (It takes 7 years to approve a new drug for usage by the public)
3. It is not an emergency situation where it's spreading like wildfire.
4. There are safety issues. Formaldehyde and mercury have been found in several cases so far.
5. NYS Health Board does not entrust their medical professionals to "do the right thing" for the patient's health, but rather force them?
6. Health professionals are not the only people coming into contact with many sick people on a daily basis. What about teachers, students, grocery store clerks?
6. It's against our civil liberties. I know there's a bunch of Libs on here. How would you feel about getting forced by state gov't to be injected or YOU LOSE YOUR JOB?
the idea of it being "forced" seems to be taking over the common sense behind the rule. it should be up to the individual, but really this is common sense. you give some 90 year old some hard core flu strain his/her death is on your hands. it makes more sense to get immunized so that scenario doesn't play out.
jeanwah, i've read some of your comments in the threads regarding your experience with amnio and DS, and i just want to say that i really admire the passion that you show here, trying to ensure that everyone is educated. i mean that sincerely.
just a couple of points though. i agree that health care workers are more than likely not the only ones coming into contact with sick people. the point here though is, that some healthcare workers are dealing with very sick people all day, every day. teachers, students and grocery store clerks are not.
people need to educate themselves and then make an informed decision about what they feel is best for them. as a health care worker who mostly deals with really sick people, i personally feel the need to make sure (to the best of my ability), that i am not transmitting disease and making a serious problem the patient already has, even worse. but that's just me.
nobody i work with has been forced to have the vaccination or been threatened with losing their job. NY State is the only state mandating it for healthcare workers, or so i believe. so far i have not seen any reports of peoples employment being terminated, and i really hope it does not come to that. i almost feel like they are just calling their bluff. those that are dead against it will stick together, and then what will they do?
You're right, there are so much more healthcare workers dealing with the sick on a daily basis, that's why that point wasn't high on the list. The little bit of statistics they have for sickness and death of Swine Flu is pregnant women and very young. I'll have to find the numbers, but the elderly and those who have weak immunity aren't the highest on the list. So it's not hitting the general populace that the regular flu tends to hit. At least not yet. Still not a reason to not be careful, but just wanted to mention that.
Yeah, NY is the ONLY state to do this. I just read an article yesterday about the state insisting on following through with the firings if the workers don't get vaccinated by the end of Nov, I think. It's big news here, as the more people against it, the more we hear about it. I don't know if they'll bluff, certainly I hope so. Health care is one of the few industries that's always hiring and always in need of more nurses. So they can't really afford to lose people right now. But who knows.
Do you mean it's not hitting the same populace that the seasonal flu tends to hit or do you mean the seasonal flu tends to hit the general populace and the swine flu isn't hitting the general populace? If it's the latter, I'd be interested to see your data on that.
Here's what the CDC has to say about it:
- Usually only 10% of the people who die from the seasonal flu are under age 65. With this year's H1N1, 91% of the people dying are under age 65.
- Total influenza hospitalization rates for laboratory-confirmed influenza are higher than expected for this time of year for adults and children. And for children 5-17 and adults 18-49 years of age, hospitalization rates from April – October 2009 exceed average flu season rates (for October through April).
- The proportion of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) based on the 122 Cities Report has increased and now exceeds what is normally expected at this time of year. In addition, 19 flu-related pediatric deaths were reported this week; 16 of these deaths were confirmed 2009 H1N1 and 3 were unsubtyped influenza A and likely to be 2009 H1N1. A total of 76 laboratory confirmed 2009 H1N1 pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC since April.
- Thirty-seven states are reporting widespread influenza activity at this time. Any reports of widespread influenza activity in September and October are very unusual.
- Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.
Also, I don't understand why you say there is very little data available and it's mostly data on pregnant women and young children. Seems to me that there's plenty of data available and it's not just limited to those groups.
From http://www.flu.gov:
"Clinical trials conducted by the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have shown that the new H1N1 vaccine is both safe and effective. The FDA has licensed it. There have been no safety shortcuts.
It is produced exactly the same way the seasonal flu vaccine is produced every year. It is simply a new virus strain. In fact, had H1N1 struck this country earlier than this spring, the H1N1 strain probably would have been included as part of this year’s seasonal flu shot.
Millions of Americans get the seasonal flu vaccine each year without any problems. Still, understanding that some Americans have concerns about “new” vaccines, the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have conducted more rigorous tests on the H1N1 vaccine than they do on other flu vaccines, and there have been no red flags from these clinical trials.
Also, CDC has stepped up surveillance efforts to track the H1N1 vaccine and any possible adverse events. Since it is so closely related to the seasonal flu vaccine, we do not expect to see serious side effects. But we are taking all the necessary steps to promote and monitor safety.
Our top doctors and scientists believe the risk of the flu, especially for pregnant women, children, and people with underlying health conditions, is higher than any risk that might come from the H1N1 vaccine."
From http://www.fda.gov:
"Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent
FDA approved these vaccines as a strain change to each manufacturer’s seasonal influenza vaccine. There is considerable experience with seasonal influenza vaccine development and production and influenza vaccines produced by this technology have a long and successful track record of safety and effectiveness in the United States. The Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines will undergo the usual testing and lot release procedures that are in place for seasonal influenza vaccines."
There's little data available because it's been so short lived. Really, all the data you find on CDC has been since the whole Swine Flu rage came about. So how many months has it been?
And the CDC website -- granted, it's tagline says that it's "Your online source for credible Health Information", yet it's a gov't site. And there's ads on it for Flu.gov, another gov site. And it's sponsored by USA.GOV. It's not a medical journal, it's a government site with flu information. I'll continue my research on legit medical sites, thanks.