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The Zeitgeist Movement

done1980done1980 Posts: 6
edited January 2010 in A Moving Train
I am a long time Pearl Jam fan who is completely in the dark about forums and online social networks but thought this would be a safe place to learn. A few months ago I watched Zeitgeist The Movie, and Zeitgeist Addendum and was completely blown away by the ideas presented in these films. The cure for the "Green Disease" is to eliminate the green completely. Money is artificial, the things that are real, (human creativity and the earth's resources) when coupled with technology can bring abundance and peace the world has never known before. That saying "money is the root of all evil" could not be any more real at any other time in history than right now. Please watch these films, I did through google video, and visit The Zeitgeist movement website. I am anxious to discuss these ideas with others.
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Comments

  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    edited October 2009
    addendum is really good.
    Post edited by Commy on
  • tremorstremors Posts: 8,051
    Sounds pretty good. btw I think the quote is 'love of money is the root of all evil'. You cannot serve both god and Mammon.
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  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    I haven't seen Addendum yet, but agree that money (and capitalism) is the root of all evil.

    "An economy based on the consumption of fixed resources will consume Itself"
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    welcome to the board ... although money is central - i do believe that greed is the root of all evil ...
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    polaris_x wrote:
    welcome to the board ... although money is central - i do believe that greed is the root of all evil ...

    I think it's pride at the root. Why is anyone greedy anyway? Do they like having lots of stuff, or do they like others believe that they are great enough to acquire whatever they want?

    Either way, true happiness cannot be found in material possesions. It's one of the reasons I really love "Soon Forget." What a great song that speaks the truth.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    I think it's pride at the root. Why is anyone greedy anyway? Do they like having lots of stuff, or do they like others believe that they are great enough to acquire whatever they want?

    Either way, true happiness cannot be found in material possesions. It's one of the reasons I really love "Soon Forget." What a great song that speaks the truth.

    because people are selfish by nature ...
  • done1980done1980 Posts: 6
    polaris_x wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    I think it's pride at the root. Why is anyone greedy anyway? Do they like having lots of stuff, or do they like others believe that they are great enough to acquire whatever they want?

    Either way, true happiness cannot be found in material possesions. It's one of the reasons I really love "Soon Forget." What a great song that speaks the truth.

    because people are selfish by nature ...

    All behavior comes from the environment, 2 kids fight over a toy not because they're selfish by nature but because there is only one toy. When people have to compete for everything they have selfishness almost becomes like a survival mechanism. People need to pile things up today because they can't be sure if they will be there tomorrow. A system designed to produce abundance eliminates this. I think once the system was in place and had people's confidence materialistic selfishness would be a thing of the past
  • tremorstremors Posts: 8,051
    rings true
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    Send my credentials to the house of detention

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  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    done1980 wrote:
    All behavior comes from the environment, 2 kids fight over a toy not because they're selfish by nature but because there is only one toy. When people have to compete for everything they have selfishness almost becomes like a survival mechanism. People need to pile things up today because they can't be sure if they will be there tomorrow. A system designed to produce abundance eliminates this. I think once the system was in place and had people's confidence materialistic selfishness would be a thing of the past

    abundance = excess ... which is a huge problem in this world ... and we all know abundance solves nothing as some people will just want more of stuff ... that's where greed comes in ...
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    To say that "money is the root of all evil," or "greed is the root of all evil," or "capitalism..." etc... I think is a bit short-sighted.

    Money is just a form of energy, something to exchange for goods/services without exchanging something tangible. Forms of money have been around for literally millenia, because bartering has some significant downfalls that are worse than using a currency backed by nothing (except CONFIDENCE in the NATION backing the note). Certainly, money creates many problems for people (including myself) but to say that it is "the root of all evil" or even that "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil" is simply not true. What is the alternative to using currency (whether it is backed by nothing or backed by Gold, doesn't really matter)?

    I guess the alternative is a truely FREE MARKET, no taxes, no usury (interest), no landlordism, NO STATE, NO PRIVILEGE. (otherwise known as anarchy)

    That has my vote... but who is organizing the world revolt? :) I don't see any alternatives to using currency in our current form of capitalistic, "democratic" world society, and if you don't join the gang you won't get far in life.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    he still stands wrote:
    To say that "money is the root of all evil," or "greed is the root of all evil," or "capitalism..." etc... I think is a bit short-sighted.

    Money is just a form of energy, something to exchange for goods/services without exchanging something tangible. Forms of money have been around for literally millenia, because bartering has some significant downfalls that are worse than using a currency backed by nothing (except CONFIDENCE in the NATION backing the note). Certainly, money creates many problems for people (including myself) but to say that it is "the root of all evil" or even that "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil" is simply not true. What is the alternative to using currency (whether it is backed by nothing or backed by Gold, doesn't really matter)?

    I guess the alternative is a truely FREE MARKET, no taxes, no usury (interest), no landlordism, NO STATE, NO PRIVILEGE. (otherwise known as anarchy)

    That has my vote... but who is organizing the world revolt? :) I don't see any alternatives to using currency in our current form of capitalistic, "democratic" world society, and if you don't join the gang you won't get far in life.

    can you counter my notion that "greed" is the root of all evil!?? ... i agree with your assessment that money is not ... but i don't think greed and money are the same thing ...

    now ... not all evil is centered around "greed" but i do believe it to be the primary sources of much of the evil that exists today ...
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    polaris_x wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    To say that "money is the root of all evil," or "greed is the root of all evil," or "capitalism..." etc... I think is a bit short-sighted.

    Money is just a form of energy, something to exchange for goods/services without exchanging something tangible. Forms of money have been around for literally millenia, because bartering has some significant downfalls that are worse than using a currency backed by nothing (except CONFIDENCE in the NATION backing the note). Certainly, money creates many problems for people (including myself) but to say that it is "the root of all evil" or even that "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil" is simply not true. What is the alternative to using currency (whether it is backed by nothing or backed by Gold, doesn't really matter)?

    I guess the alternative is a truely FREE MARKET, no taxes, no usury (interest), no landlordism, NO STATE, NO PRIVILEGE. (otherwise known as anarchy)

    That has my vote... but who is organizing the world revolt? :) I don't see any alternatives to using currency in our current form of capitalistic, "democratic" world society, and if you don't join the gang you won't get far in life.

    can you counter my notion that "greed" is the root of all evil!?? ... i agree with your assessment that money is not ... but i don't think greed and money are the same thing ...

    now ... not all evil is centered around "greed" but i do believe it to be the primary sources of much of the evil that exists today ...

    I think you countered it for me :D when you say that "not all evil is centered around 'greed.'" Certainly being greedy can cause a person to do "evil" things, but so can lust, jealousy, apathy, ignorance, religion, etc, etc. I don't think it is possible to objectively prove that greed causes more evil than any of those, in fact I could make a good argument for any of the others being the "primary source of much of the evil that exists today," as you said about greed. It depends on your definition of "evil," what constitutes an "evil act," and an opinion of what the underlying cause is for each (which isn't objective either).

    I do agree that greed is a cause of "evil" (within my definition of evil) but certainly not the root cause and most likely not the primary source.

    An argument in the other direction; Greed is what a capitalistic society depends on... so when greed is above average as a whole that means more jobs and a better functioning economy than if everybody stopped wanting. So, greed is good because it benefits the economy. But I don't "believe" that!
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I think that greed may be a manifestation of a deeper-level need: Power. Why does one even need to be greedy and accumulate excessive amounts of resources? Ultimately, so that one can say or feel that one is "better" or "greater than" someone else ... If I have more than my neighbour, I can hold sway over them in myriad ways (political power, social status, etc.).
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    rebornFixer wrote:
    I think that greed may be a manifestation of a deeper-level need: Power. Why does one even need to be greedy and accumulate excessive amounts of resources? Ultimately, so that one can say or feel that one is "better" or "greater than" someone else ... If I have more than my neighbour, I can hold sway over them in myriad ways (political power, social status, etc.).

    Very good point about 'power.'

    I'm paraphrasing here... but a wise man (Ram Dass) once said something like - "The most exquisite paradox… as soon as you give it all up, you can have it all. As long as you want power, you can't have it. The minute you don't want power, you'll have more than you ever dreamed possible."
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    he still stands wrote:
    I think you countered it for me :D when you say that "not all evil is centered around 'greed.'" Certainly being greedy can cause a person to do "evil" things, but so can lust, jealousy, apathy, ignorance, religion, etc, etc. I don't think it is possible to objectively prove that greed causes more evil than any of those, in fact I could make a good argument for any of the others being the "primary source of much of the evil that exists today," as you said about greed. It depends on your definition of "evil," what constitutes an "evil act," and an opinion of what the underlying cause is for each (which isn't objective either).

    I do agree that greed is a cause of "evil" (within my definition of evil) but certainly not the root cause and most likely not the primary source.

    An argument in the other direction; Greed is what a capitalistic society depends on... so when greed is above average as a whole that means more jobs and a better functioning economy than if everybody stopped wanting. So, greed is good because it benefits the economy. But I don't "believe" that!

    i would say that there are many things that cause evil and yes - it really is dependent on the definition however, i still stand (no pun intended) that greed is by far the biggest ... also, i do not think that ignorance is a cause of evil ... more likely symptomatic of other motivations ...

    if you don't think greed is the primary cause - what is then?
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    rebornFixer wrote:
    I think that greed may be a manifestation of a deeper-level need: Power. Why does one even need to be greedy and accumulate excessive amounts of resources? Ultimately, so that one can say or feel that one is "better" or "greater than" someone else ... If I have more than my neighbour, I can hold sway over them in myriad ways (political power, social status, etc.).
    i think the need for power ultimately stems from a desire for personal freedom, not for the sake of power itself. that's what everyone really wants i think. the idea that you have more power translates into the fact that you have more freedom. and in a capitalist structure, or whatever we have today, a lot of freedom is available in principle, you have what you can buy. hence the greed, the pursuit of getting ahead.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Commy wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    I think that greed may be a manifestation of a deeper-level need: Power. Why does one even need to be greedy and accumulate excessive amounts of resources? Ultimately, so that one can say or feel that one is "better" or "greater than" someone else ... If I have more than my neighbour, I can hold sway over them in myriad ways (political power, social status, etc.).
    i think the need for power ultimately stems from a desire for personal freedom, not for the sake of power itself. that's what everyone really wants i think. the idea that you have more power translates into the fact that you have more freedom. and in a capitalist structure, or whatever we have today, a lot of freedom is available in principle, you have what you can buy. hence the greed, the pursuit of getting ahead.

    Point. This is cool, though ... We've gone from greed to power to freedom ... Is there a deeper need than the latter?
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    polaris_x wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I think you countered it for me :D when you say that "not all evil is centered around 'greed.'" Certainly being greedy can cause a person to do "evil" things, but so can lust, jealousy, apathy, ignorance, religion, etc, etc. I don't think it is possible to objectively prove that greed causes more evil than any of those, in fact I could make a good argument for any of the others being the "primary source of much of the evil that exists today," as you said about greed. It depends on your definition of "evil," what constitutes an "evil act," and an opinion of what the underlying cause is for each (which isn't objective either).

    I do agree that greed is a cause of "evil" (within my definition of evil) but certainly not the root cause and most likely not the primary source.

    An argument in the other direction; Greed is what a capitalistic society depends on... so when greed is above average as a whole that means more jobs and a better functioning economy than if everybody stopped wanting. So, greed is good because it benefits the economy. But I don't "believe" that!

    i would say that there are many things that cause evil and yes - it really is dependent on the definition however, i still stand (no pun intended) that greed is by far the biggest ... also, i do not think that ignorance is a cause of evil ... more likely symptomatic of other motivations ...

    if you don't think greed is the primary cause - what is then?

    What specific actions are evil? Would any two people in this world agree on a comprehensive list of what constitues an evil action and what doesn't?... I doubt it. Certainly murder and rape are, but those actions are more due to psychosis than "evil" in my opinion. In fact, I think psychosis or other mental derangements are the causes of most of this behavior, not some benign force like "evil."

    So I guess you could interpret that as saying that mental illness causes evil... but I think mental illness causes evil ACTIONS. Evil, to me, is reserved for extreme cases that are beyond my comprehension (serial killers, child rapists, etc) And the cause of those actions are certainly not greed...
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    he still stands wrote:
    What specific actions are evil? Would any two people in this world agree on a comprehensive list of what constitues an evil action and what doesn't?... I doubt it. Certainly murder and rape are, but those actions are more due to psychosis than "evil" in my opinion. In fact, I think psychosis or other mental derangements are the causes of most of this behavior, not some benign force like "evil."

    So I guess you could interpret that as saying that mental illness causes evil... but I think mental illness causes evil ACTIONS. Evil, to me, is reserved for extreme cases that are beyond my comprehension (serial killers, child rapists, etc) And the cause of those actions are certainly not greed...

    i think many of us can agree on many aspects of evil ... i don't think it's necessary to have an exact definition to come to a belief of what drives those actions tho ... for me evil is lying to a country so that you can send it to war against a sovereing nation - which results in the loss of significant life, the continues suffering of people who no are denied access to clean water and food ... evil is dumping toxic waste into a water system knowing full well many people will develop illnesses from it ... those are some of the things i consider evil ... although your examples are just in most cases and i do believe that mental illness is likely the cause of those actions ... it does not compare to the mass suffering purpertrated by individuals or groups of people in the name of greed ...
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    polaris_x wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    What specific actions are evil? Would any two people in this world agree on a comprehensive list of what constitues an evil action and what doesn't?... I doubt it. Certainly murder and rape are, but those actions are more due to psychosis than "evil" in my opinion. In fact, I think psychosis or other mental derangements are the causes of most of this behavior, not some benign force like "evil."

    So I guess you could interpret that as saying that mental illness causes evil... but I think mental illness causes evil ACTIONS. Evil, to me, is reserved for extreme cases that are beyond my comprehension (serial killers, child rapists, etc) And the cause of those actions are certainly not greed...

    i think many of us can agree on many aspects of evil ... i don't think it's necessary to have an exact definition to come to a belief of what drives those actions tho ... for me evil is lying to a country so that you can send it to war against a sovereing nation - which results in the loss of significant life, the continues suffering of people who no are denied access to clean water and food ... evil is dumping toxic waste into a water system knowing full well many people will develop illnesses from it ... those are some of the things i consider evil ... although your examples are just in most cases and i do believe that mental illness is likely the cause of those actions ... it does not compare to the mass suffering purpertrated by individuals or groups of people in the name of greed ...

    Fair enough. Just because Bush/Reagan/Clinton (whoever, not trying to be partisan) didn't pull the trigger does that not mean they have blood on their hands? BUT I still have a hard time not believing that ignorance (Wilsonian idealism), strongly-held beliefs that AREN'T evil but ARE stupid (we can defeat communism/terrorism for the good of the human race), and general psychosis... causes that sort of behavior just as much, or more, than greed.

    But, point taken and I agree (to a point). :)
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    he still stands wrote:
    Fair enough. Just because Bush/Reagan/Clinton (whoever, not trying to be partisan) didn't pull the trigger does that not mean they have blood on their hands? BUT I still have a hard time not believing that ignorance (Wilsonian idealism), strongly-held beliefs that AREN'T evil but ARE stupid (we can defeat communism/terrorism for the good of the human race), and general psychosis... causes that sort of behavior just as much, or more, than greed.

    But, point taken and I agree (to a point). :)
    it seems to me that the wars on terrorism and communism and drugs are just pretexts for actions ultimately motivated by greed and the lust for power. its always a war on something-and it all sounds very nice and wonderful and they claim to have our best interests in mind. but its always war, and the empire keeps growing.
  • done1980done1980 Posts: 6
    he still stands wrote:
    To say that "money is the root of all evil," or "greed is the root of all evil," or "capitalism..." etc... I think is a bit short-sighted.

    Money is just a form of energy, something to exchange for goods/services without exchanging something tangible. Forms of money have been around for literally millenia, because bartering has some significant downfalls that are worse than using a currency backed by nothing (except CONFIDENCE in the NATION backing the note). Certainly, money creates many problems for people (including myself) but to say that it is "the root of all evil" or even that "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil" is simply not true. What is the alternative to using currency (whether it is backed by nothing or backed by Gold, doesn't really matter)?

    I guess the alternative is a truely FREE MARKET, no taxes, no usury (interest), no landlordism, NO STATE, NO PRIVILEGE. (otherwise known as anarchy)

    That has my vote... but who is organizing the world revolt? :) I don't see any alternatives to using currency in our current form of capitalistic, "democratic" world society, and if you don't join the gang you won't get far in life.

    It may not be the root of ALL evil but the monetary system seems to cause many problems today which could otherwise be avoided. Individuals, corporations, and governments engage in corruption to what end if not for a profit?
    Money is not a form of energy, it is not real. I agree monetary systems have been around for millenia but that does not mean we can't move on to something better. Money is used to barter for scarce resources, if we can eliminate scarity why would we still use money. Scarcity is perpetuated by the monetary system because it increases profit. We are so indoctrinated into the monetary system that it is hard to step outside it (mentally) and see it for what it is, and impossible to avoid it and get far in life as you mentioned.
  • done1980done1980 Posts: 6
    polaris_x wrote:
    done1980 wrote:
    All behavior comes from the environment, 2 kids fight over a toy not because they're selfish by nature but because there is only one toy. When people have to compete for everything they have selfishness almost becomes like a survival mechanism. People need to pile things up today because they can't be sure if they will be there tomorrow. A system designed to produce abundance eliminates this. I think once the system was in place and had people's confidence materialistic selfishness would be a thing of the past

    abundance = excess ... which is a huge problem in this world ... and we all know abundance solves nothing as some people will just want more of stuff ... that's where greed comes in ...

    When I say abundance I am refering to life's basic needs, food, shelter, education, health care, all at the highest quality technically possible. Providing this for everyone, while maintaining a respectful relationship with the earth, is priority #1. I agree abundance of certain things would be excessive and negative.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    done1980 wrote:
    When I say abundance I am refering to life's basic needs, food, shelter, education, health care, all at the highest quality technically possible. Providing this for everyone, while maintaining a respectful relationship with the earth, is priority #1. I agree abundance of certain things would be excessive and negative.

    ok ... i suppose it's just our usage of words here ...

    i agree especially with our relationship with earth - but i would also say that right now - there is plenty of food, water, etc - the problem is that the greed of others are exploiting the basic needs of everyone ...
  • ryanevolutionryanevolution Posts: 782
    I am bringing this thread back! Why? Because nobody answered the OP. It became an esoteric bs session about "money".


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    Part 2 - completely deconstructs the 9/11 myth

    Part 3 - outlines the history and purpose of the federal reserve.


    This movie is the truth! Watch it if you dare. You wont be the same afterwards.


    Here is the beginning of part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYSZZk9pIz8&feature=PlayList&p=C7EC93EE5B47F2CE&index=0
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