LISBON TREATY: Round 2

JordyWordy

So, on the 2nd October, we Irish are voting all over again. Im decided, im settled in my opinion.
However, the vote is a few days and polls yesterday revealed over 20% of voters still undecided, and the Yes & No campaign groups are both (AGAIN) using bullshit arguments to win support. 2 referenda, and minimal structured & focused debate on a massive issue. Its a secondary issue (behind having no money & hating the government) for most people here. Madness.

Where do all you kind folk around the globe stand on this? (the vote, last year's result, the direction of the EU, etc).

Contribute, discuss. Let's hear it. A few of us kicked up a great debate about this treaty last year. Let's have a chat about it again. Has anything changed? Or, do people outside Europe understand it or care? It's a fairly hefty issue.

dunkman

Ireland is now one of the poorest EU countries since the global crash. That will play a part. Ireland receives a huge amount of money from the EU to subsidise its economy.

Me being a right-wing mentalist, if you all said NO again i'd hope you received no more EU money. :twisted:

JordyWordy

We could regress to the conditions in Scotland if we're not careful

You are right though, it is a huge factor. It's almost a shame because it has blurred the issue here, a real "You're with us or against us" attitude.

I'm amazed though, i really don't know what way it will go. The general election before the last Lisbon vote (only a few months before the crash) saw the corrupt, moneyswindling fuckers of FiannaFail get voted back in, then the crash came, and people voted No to Lisbon...the reasons for which were wide

Now opposition parties are begging people to vote Yes to Lisbon and to show dissatisfaction at the Government another time. The problem is, many people will still vote no purely because of dissatisfaction with the government, or the governments lack of attempts to lay out clearly to the populace whats at stake.

Neither of which is the point of the vote. The crash has totally distorted this vote, and the longterm implications of the Treaty cant be separated from the fact that our economy is fucked. But really, theyre not the same issue at all.

MI38162

hi. surprised to find this topic here! hooray!!
basically i don't like the way "democracy" works ... Yes or No, majority rules. sad world for losers like me.
most of "improvements" by Lisbon Treaty are good, i guess (i have read some official leaflets), but i don't like the bit about more expenditure on military, less veto and more decisions at EU.
and what about French & Dutch "NO" on predecessor EU Constitution referendum in 2005? after their results the other countries stopped the referendum process and created the way-round called Lisbon Treaty so that they could avoid dodgy decisions by ordinary citizens?? except the Irish constitution still asks the people to vote.
it is said that the presidents of Poland and Czech republic are still not signing the last documents despite their goverments decisions, saying they should respect Irish decision. hmmmmmm . . . .
"theres no wrong or right,.." and good or bad depends on who you are too, no??

wish things are simple. do the devolution!!! ~ ~ ~ an alien in ireland (long-term resident; no vote except local) (yey my first post)

JordyWordy

Congrats on your first post! Shame to hear you cannot vote on the treaty.
I hate the way they are bypassing the people of Europe, but, if there had been referendums WAY back in the start, i dont think there would be an EU today. National citizens will never vote to make their country a sub-unit of something bigger. National culture & identity is much more strong here than in central europe, or America. It depends on how you see it, are you European or Irish? Is it one continent, or 27 countries?

The good or bad does depend on who you are. I personally voted no the last time, because of the bigger picture of the treaty: i dont want a Ferderal Europe, or army, etc.

But, we have a Commissioner, which is better representation than any other country our size. Thats a good point! I think the EU is trying to make decision making easier, which is a good thing, because it is too slow at the moment (re: passing laws, hearing cases). It just means it will work more like the government does in countries like Germany, where they can work faster. As always, there are risks with that. And the decision to have more power, less veto, and one big army......well... its many risky ingredients. i find that hard to accept.

Regarding funding: we need EU money for infrastructure (roads, broadband, etc)...we still have huge problems in those areas. We REALLY need that money.

The problem i guess with democracy is that in Ireland, we have too much Representation. There are SO many TDs, and 1/3 of our budget is for Public Sector Employees...its ridiculous. Those are not problems that the EU created. There are too many TDs and too many Civil Servants who are not productive and are too expensive. Bertie Ahern created all those jobs to buy votes, and it worked, and now we are bankrupt due to expensive puiblic pensions that (1) are not deserved and (2) are higher than private workers can get. Thats is for the next general election though, i guess.

MI38162

suppose when EC was formed, people were less informed and pretty happy with the vision of harmonious Europe. people thought co-operation is a good thing, didn't think much about negatives.
things were different then, all is different now,... yeah it's hard to imagine! (:

it's a sad reality that Ireland needs EU funds, bubble false economy finally collapsed (thought it would happen earlier!), and both camps (Yes & No) says vote our side for better economy, but either way no promises.
did you watch RTE Prime Time last thursday? thought Mick vs Deco debate would be good, but i was disappointed. thought Mick was sort of defeated looking, as if saying "i don't like it, but for the current situation Yes is the better bet" ... my imagination? i expected better argument from him. it was not convincing.
and as you pointed, some will vote No = against current government. that's sad.

there are too many factors! and they are asking simple Yes or No. and if the punters are right, Ireland's future depends on it.

if majority vote NO, will EU kick Ireland out ? will there be change in Treaty? will there be third referendum?
as always in the case of "democratic decisions", they won't listen to the losers after all those debates?
or will it be just forgotten?

as i don't have a vote on this matter, either way it's not my fault!! i count on you mate (: will see . . .

not related to LT but all those confiscated cannabis resins lately, gov't should legalise it - only in the form of cigarette-type official products as luxury items like 200 euro a packet of ten, and restrict the places they can be bought & enjoyed (like, Temple Bar & private households only)- at other places, hefty fines. oh wait the price should be competitive to Amsterdam so that they can lure the tourists..........

p.s. and if you could show me where is the first Lisbon Treaty referendum debate on this thing, appreciated!

Rhinocerous Surprise

I'm ashamed to admit, I'm completely out of the loop on the changes that have been made to the Treaty. I'm actually leaning towards Yes this time, for all the wrong reasons. For one, the No campaign has really pissed me off this time (not that the Yes campaign hasn't, but the No side moreso). And then there's the "us vs. EU" thing - I know it's not right that a No vote would paint us as the assholes of Europe (which we are), but it would.

So, basically, I'm looking for a good reason to vote No. Any reason. Any reason that's better than "Well, we're screwed either way."

MI38162

your local library may have "Lisbon Treaty White Paper"(or something like that. A4 size document, quality paper!) and some copies of "The Lisbon Treaty : your extended guide" (A5, 32 pages) to take away.
web: http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie

totally with you on : NO camps arguments are more annoying. but Patricia McKenna could sure talk live on ClareFM!

anyhoo ... is "let's see what happens if we vote NO again" good enough for you?
and French & Dutch people voted NO would cheer for you. many will respect the Irish guts to say No.

(in case anyone spotted ... edited a bit & changed the picture on 29 Sept 2009)

JordyWordy

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=73054

This is last year's thread - 22 pages of it!! It was a good heated discussion, and it's interesting to read my thoughts from 14 months ago. Skip ahead to around page 9, the first few pages was translation difficulties , (and partly because i made a typing error that contradicted myself). So around page 9-10 it starts making sense!
Thanks for the other link i missed the debate, but read about it.

I voted no the last time - had some good reasons to, the Commissioner reason is gone now. And yep, the No campaign is annoying me too. I didnt like the fact that the BNP in England started jumping on the bandwagon once the No result was announced. It wasnt nice to be seen as being in line with a group like that.

So, in an ideal world, this whole treaty could have been voted on in parts by the EU member citizens - but that would have (and did in the 3 No votes made already) highlighted the difficulties the EU currently has & why it needs to change!

Good reasons for voting No are the objection to this Federal Structure, or the military aspect. But...Neither of which is a problem for Ireland now thanks to the commissioner & the opt-out of the military part. So maybe voting No this time would be completely for idealistic, objective reasons?

Or for the bullshit reasons Coir Campaign have on their posters! http://www.creativeireland.com/forums/s ... hp?t=27670

I didnt really engage with it this time either to be honest. I feel like a lazy voter!! :(

MI38162

Thanks for the link, Jordy. if you are a lazy voter, the majority are probably lazier (:
phew . . . good read. much better than some politicians debate! PJ fans are alright!!!
i suspected this but now i'm sure, the first round NO was a good thing. at least more information, made some people think, ...

oh and the creativeireland website link. terrible! YES camps made up those posters, no?

hey Rhino, now i have read some of the round 1 threads,... i have nothing to say. you seem to be well informed!

when a part of a banana goes bad, do you have to swallow whole or throw away altogether? if you throw away, does anyone pick it up & salvage the good bits?? ... but hey eating bad bits wouldn't kill you either ...

~ simpleminded alien

JordyWordy

MI38162 wrote:

Thanks for the link, Jordy. if you are a lazy voter, the majority are probably lazier (:
phew . . . good read. much better than some politicians debate! PJ fans are alright!!!
i suspected this but now i'm sure, the first round NO was a good thing. at least more information, made some people think, ...

oh and the creativeireland website link. terrible! YES camps made up those posters, no?

hey Rhino, now i have read some of the round 1 threads,... i have nothing to say. you seem to be well informed!

when a part of a banana goes bad, do you have to swallow whole or throw away altogether? if you throw away, does anyone pick it up & salvage the good bits?? ... but hey eating bad bits wouldn't kill you either ...

~ simpleminded alien

That's a very accurate example! So i think the same, the No on Round 1 was good, we got our guarantees, as far as we could, this time it seems like a slightly better treaty.

Yes the posters are made up, but they are quite funny. "Your sandcastles aren't safe" is my favourite lol.
The first poster with the Charlie McCreevy quote is real, its taken out of context. He meant it in the way that we said earlier (ie, nothing would ever get done in EU if citizens voted all the time).

But what is disturbing is that some of the real "No"/Coir posters are very similar to the fake ones. The one about minimum wage will be €1.84. How can a "serious" campaign group put such lies on posters? Crazy.

I see Declan Ganley is in trouble again about his finances. The man is such a lying bastard. He's a business man who will lose out if this thing goes ahead. i cant wait till the vote is over so i never have to listen to him again!!

Do they still call it "alien" in the official papers? God, that's pretty old-fashioned.

MI38162

Do they still call it "alien" in the official papers? God, that's pretty old-fashioned.

no, not any more ): i liked it when i still liked X-files & Star Trek TNG ...

JordyWordy

Oh, here is the sandcastle poster. Brilliant.

http://www.lecraic.com/wp-content/uploa ... lisbon.jpg

JordyWordy

MI38162 wrote:

Do they still call it "alien" in the official papers? God, that's pretty old-fashioned.

no, not any more ): i liked it when i still liked X-files & Star Trek TNG ...

It had a certain ring to it. I like the way you kept it!

MI38162

another slagfest by the usual suspect?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... king47.htm
(not sure if the above link would be a permanent one)

Last Updated: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 13:59
Insults fly in lively Lisbon debate

PAUL CULLEN

Yes and No campaigners traded further arguments and insults in a boisterous debate on the Lisbon treaty referendum on RTÉ's Radio's Pat Kenny Show this morning.

Both sides accused each other of lying during the debate, conducted live in the window of Arnotts department store on Dublin's Henry Street.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin said the biggest lie in the No campaign was the claim that the minimum wage would fall if voters approved the treaty.

He also attacked the "extraordinary duplicity and cynicism" of Sinn Féin which, he claimed, affected to be pro-Europe but anti-Lisbon in the Republic, while in the North it had opposed every European treaty. "It's a con job," he said, to applause from the watching crowd.

For Libertas, Declan Ganley said the treaty was bad for Ireland and bad for Europe as he traded angry insults with former EU Parliament president Pat Cox.

Mr Cox had earlier accused the Libertas leader - whom he labelled "Braveheart" - of "calculated and measured misrepresentation" in his arguments. He stressed the context of the debate, which was that Europe had been the source of significant foreign direct investment.

Mr Ganley responded by accusing Mr Cox of typifying the "arrogance" of Brussels and of being a lobbyist. There was nothing on jobs in the treaty, he repeated.

Fine Gael MEP Mairead McGuinness wondered whether people shouldn't switch off and go for a walk to think about the treaty rather than listen to the entrenched view on show, but before long she too was trading verbal punches with Sinn Féin's Mary Lou McDonald.

Neither Ms McDonald nor Mr Ganley was elected last time out, she reminded them, so they should accept the democratic decision of the voters.

For a time, Mr Ganley's microphone was malfunctioning, so he couldn't be heard by the crowd outside the window. When the street sweeping machine stopped for a while to gawk, it was too much for his supporters, who claimed their man was being gagged.

Mr Martin too was in fighting form, mocking the "outmoded, outdated ideology" of Socialist MEP Joe Higgins.

Mr Higgins was in "monstrous" form - it was a monstrous lie for the Government to claim that a Yes vote would transform the jobs scene, it was monstrous for the head of Pfizer to claim there would be a flight of capital if we vote No, etc.

The Nos were the majority of the crowd outside the department store, and Pat Kenny's appeal for undecideds produced just a few hands. One man toted a large sign complaining about the "ripoff" licence fee, much to the annoyance of the RTÉ staff trying to keep a lid on things.

Anne-Marie Hogan said she had visited the grave of the late Raymond Crotty, who campaigned against earlier treaties, yesterday and was sure he would oppose the current "anti-democratic" referendum.

A No-voting Green Party member, said health and education would be privatised if Lisbon is passed.

it's entertaining ... but one may wish to vote YES to end this farce, and then throw the government out,...
or,....

Hitch-Hiker

I'll be voting Yes on Friday. One big reason is we badly need Europe right now, and voting No won't exactly put us in the good books of the powers that be. Another reason is, that the initial concerns have all been solved - neutrality is protected, Wage laws are protected, our Commisioner is protected. 3rd, The vast majority of the No Campaign is scaremongering and just bare faced lies. Those involved on the No Side are far more untrustworthy than the Yes campaigners. The likes of Libertas and Coir just tell outright lies to create discontent. They stir up anti-Europe sentiments because they're confusing Europe for our own government. It's not the same thing. It pisses me off the way they all claim to be pro-Europe and yet have voted against every single European treaty before this - Joe Higgins I'm looking at you!
Also, among those campaigning on the no side are Sinn Féin and it'll be a cold day in hell before I ever agree with those scumbags about anything.

ok, rant over.

Hitch-Hiker

Also, on a side note, Dennis Hickey is on the Yes side. And who can argue with Ireland's second highest Try Score of all time. Best winger we ever had

MI38162

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

Also, on a side note, Dennis Hickey is on the Yes side. And who can argue with Ireland's second highest Try Score of all time. Best winger we ever had

the best endorsement i heard so far
okay, you may not need Veto if matters are well discussed and fair, let's hope they make better decisions than Plain People of Europe, and hope for less military spending & never needed forces as such, ...
(take it as other common "fears" are all cleared as official statements, JordyWordy and Hitch-Hiker above stated already)

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

So, basically, I'm looking for a good reason to vote No. Any reason. Any reason that's better than "Well, we're screwed either way."

sorry about rambling ... suppose i'm still looking for more reasons to vote Yes. ...

JordyWordy

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

Also, on a side note, Dennis Hickey is on the Yes side. And who can argue with Ireland's second highest Try Score of all time. Best winger we ever had

He's got my vote anyway!

Just watched Micheal Martin vs Declan Ganley on vincent browne (his show is brilliant by the way, its the only tv show i always watch).

But....jesus....Ganley is such a tosser. Really.
Being a spin doctor is one thing, being a really bad liar, wandering into areas where he's totally factually obviously wrong (The commission makes all our laws!! lol), contradicting himself with every breath, quoting Cardinals from the Vatican as to what makes good democracy... the list goes on. The guy is the funniest thing on television. My favourite thing is when he sincerely starts his points with the words "Im a European, JUST LIKE YOU..." For any semi-credible human being, that must be pretty insulting to have him compare himself to you.

Probably the least credible person to exist from Ireland. And that's a hell of a fucking achievement!!

Hitch-Hiker

JordyWordy wrote:

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

Also, on a side note, Dennis Hickey is on the Yes side. And who can argue with Ireland's second highest Try Score of all time. Best winger we ever had

He's got my vote anyway!

Just watched Micheal Martin vs Declan Ganley on vincent browne (his show is brilliant by the way, its the only tv show i always watch).

But....jesus....Ganley is such a tosser. Really.
Being a spin doctor is one thing, being a really bad liar, wandering into areas where he's totally factually obviously wrong (The commission makes all our laws!! lol), contradicting himself with every breath, quoting Cardinals from the Vatican as to what makes good democracy... the list goes on. The guy is the funniest thing on television. My favourite thing is when he sincerely starts his points with the words "Im a European, JUST LIKE YOU..." For any semi-credible human being, that must be pretty insulting to have him compare himself to you.

Probably the least credible person to exist from Ireland. And that's a hell of a fucking achievement!!

well said. I hate that guy so much. He was ripped apart on Pat Kenny the other day which was fairly satisfying. He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

JordyWordy

Michael O'Leary vs Declan Ganley on PrimeTime, with good auld Miriam. Quality stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbuyGJKx ... re=related part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCKvw0OtRgE&NR=1 part 2

JordyWordy

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I'm ashamed to admit, I'm completely out of the loop on the changes that have been made to the Treaty. I'm actually leaning towards Yes this time, for all the wrong reasons. For one, the No campaign has really pissed me off this time (not that the Yes campaign hasn't, but the No side moreso). And then there's the "us vs. EU" thing - I know it's not right that a No vote would paint us as the assholes of Europe (which we are), but it would.

So, basically, I'm looking for a good reason to vote No. Any reason. Any reason that's better than "Well, we're screwed either way."

I'd been feeling like this until the last day or two. I've come to see it like this though: The more guidance & power the EU has over Ireland, the better. Our politicians have lost most of their credibility altogether, there's not one single party really that can demand a huge majority of public opinion, or of the Dail itself. As bad as Fianna Fail have been in ways they were great in others, but as much as i despise them i still don't see any viable people for government in the opposition parties, (except George Lee).

And i always felt that the "workers rights" issue was a load of horseshit, why focus on rights when there are no jobs! There's 13% unemployment! We need to do whatever keeps creating jobs, and thats Foreign Investment, along with regulating our major industries.

JordyWordy

I also notice only Irish people/lives here (honorary Irishman) has posted here.

Anybody have a European, American, Canadian, Asian, African, Kiwi or Australian perspective on this??

Jennytree

I still have no way which way I'm going to vote.

I'm appalled by the No campaigners, but I feel like a Yes vote is a vote for the crappy government we have right now.

dimitrispearljam

here in Greece the FUCKERS politics just say yes to Europe without ask anyone.the most of the politics party vote yes so the goverment said yes...people ignored..and we bring democracy to the world

dimitrispearljam

JordyWordy wrote:

I also notice only Irish people/lives here (honorary Irishman) has posted here.

Anybody have a European, American, Canadian, Asian, African, Kiwi or Australian perspective on this??

yesa couse most of the people countries already vote yes and thje others like mine politics said yes without asking the people..Ireland is the last castle..

MI38162

JordyWordy wrote:

. . . The more guidance & power the EU has over Ireland, the better. Our politicians have lost most of their credibility altogether, there's not one single party really that can demand a huge majority of public opinion, or of the Dail itself. As bad as Fianna Fail have been in ways they were great in others, but as much as i despise them i still don't see any viable people for government in the opposition parties, (except George Lee).

And i always felt that the "workers rights" issue was a load of horseshit, why focus on rights when there are no jobs! There's 13% unemployment! We need to do whatever keeps creating jobs, and thats Foreign Investment, along with regulating our major industries.

um, can you trust the EU which created the way-round "Treaty" to avoid popular vote? well, you can say that's a Very Clever pup pup pup Plan. (shrug)

George Lee?? ho. Gay Mitchell is alright, no? ... Jim Mitchell and Tony Gregory (RIP) ... bit disappointed that i can't really agree with Joe Higgins on some matters, like "workers rights" seem to be pretty okay under the Lisbon Treaty, and he's missing some of my points ... oh wait i never told him ... (:

Foreign investments. they come and go ... better think about something homegrown ... says an honorary irish (cheers Jordy!)

oh hell whichever will be, will be ... all the best!

JordyWordy

MI38162 wrote:

um, can you trust the EU which created the way-round "Treaty" to avoid popular vote? well, you can say that's a Very Clever pup pup pup Plan. (shrug)

George Lee?? ho. Gay Mitchell is alright, no? ... Jim Mitchell and Tony Gregory (RIP) ... bit disappointed that i can't really agree with Joe Higgins on some matters, like "workers rights" seem to be pretty okay under the Lisbon Treaty, and he's missing some of my points ... oh wait i never told him ... (:

Thanks
I trust them more than our governmentTwith some things, and less with other things. But the main issues have been sorted, so im happy with that.

Homegrown is crucial too, but a huge proportion of the countries jobs, taxes and investment comes from foreign countries, if we could be excluded from anything by voting No, then . This country was nothing without the EU and the open market. Im young but i remember this place without all the investment, it was nothing as good as nowadays. Not even close.

Im quite surprised by Joe Higgins too, usually he's very straight and focused. He seems to not really know why he doesnt like the Treaty...he's still great though. Yeah, Gay Mictchell is pretty good, he's in my constituency, i shouldnt have forgotten him! And Mary White is a Labour thats great, but not that high up in the party unfortunately.

I'm off to the polls to vote yes!! Enjoy it everyone, be interesting whatever the outcome!

dunkman

Jennytree wrote:

I still have no way which way I'm going to vote.

I'm appalled by the No campaigners, but I feel like a Yes vote is a vote for the crappy government we have right now.

considering the grammar of your first sentence that can only be a good thing...

MI38162

JordyWordy wrote:

Homegrown is crucial too, but a huge proportion of the countries jobs, taxes and investment comes from foreign countries, if we could be excluded from anything by voting No, then . This country was nothing without the EU and the open market. Im young but i remember this place without all the investment, it was nothing as good as nowadays. Not even close.

ireland before the celtic tiger ... Plain People of Ireland seemed to be quite happy with whatever they had, adequately-priced modest housing, (lucky i bought one then) ... foreign investors noticed the relative good value of real estates in ireland, ... Plain People of Ireland noticed they can borrow more money than they need, ... money-go-round ... excess ...
i mean, it wasn't too bad really. we were quite happy then ... working at foreign national corporation ...
okay Jordy you win! (:

there's a Mary White in Labour too? (one Green TD for sure) ... i was a bit hesitant to say this, but some Labour TDs are alright too. i think. matter of opinion. one local FF TD is alright here, hoping he goes independent (:
ah, what do i know!!

don't want to see smug faces of Cowen, Lenihan et al (if YES), but even worse is the triumphant SF and Ganley ... no win situation for me ): oh well, soon forget ...

JordyWordy

MI38162 wrote:

i mean, it wasn't too bad really. we were quite happy then ... working at foreign national corporation ...
okay Jordy you win! (:

im not trying to win!! just my opinion! could be a wrong one too, you remember more than i do.

MI38162 wrote:

there's a Mary White in Labour too? (one Green TD for sure) ... i was a bit hesitant to say this, but some Labour TDs are alright too. i think. matter of opinion. one local FF TD is alright here, hoping he goes independent (: ah, what do i know!!

it would be nice to see some more go independent, it worked quite well for the good indeoendents on the last vote.

MI38162 wrote:

don't want to see smug faces of Cowen, Lenihan et al (if YES), but even worse is the triumphant SF and Ganley ... no win situation for me ): oh well, soon forget ...

Yeah, they always look smug dont they! :x Christ, Ganley winning....i could tolerate a "no" vote, i couldnt tolerate Ganley!!

Did you see the Ryanair ads in the paper yesterday? It said something like... "Dont listen to losers: Ganley- LOSER, Higgins-LOSER, SinnFein-LOSERS. Vote Yes to piss off the losers!!" or something, it was very funny!