"Love ain't love until you give it up"

slightofjeff

This is one of my favorite lyrics on Backspacer, even though I don't have a thorough understanding of what it means. Anybody want to take a stab at explaining it to me?

Other lyrics I find myself thinking about are as follows:

"Dream the dreams of other men; you will be no one's rival."

"I'm not the paper/I'm more like the fold/Cut the crease put the shit in the whole."

Any help there?

Also, astute readers of the liner notes will notice Ed uses the word "exorcising" instead of "excercising" at the beginning of Force of Nature. There is a stark difference between the two verbs. Discuss.

SpokenJeremy

Dream the dreams of other men, you will be no one's rival...

This means that if you don't dream for yourself, take a chance on your own ideas, etc, then you will be no one's rival. You won't stand out or be opposed because you are just using another person's ideas. If that makes sense.

HeavyHands

slightofjeff wrote:

This is one of my favorite lyrics on Backspacer, even though I don't have a thorough understanding of what it means. Anybody want to take a stab at explaining it to me? Discuss.

After all of the listening I've been doing over the last five days this same line just jumped out at me today for some reason. I think of it in terms of this line from "The End" off of Abbey Road:

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

As I read it currently it has to do with being mature enough to let go of the things you are most endeared to so that they can be off on their own. Because, in the end, it will come back to you.

Or something like that.

slightofjeff

TacoJammer wrote:

Dream the dreams of other men, you will be no one's rival...

This means that if you don't dream for yourself, take a chance on your own ideas, etc, then you will be no one's rival. You won't stand out or be opposed because you are just using another person's ideas. If that makes sense.

Makes sense. I like it. I was thinking of being "no one's rival" or being "unrivaled" as being a good thing. Not a bad thing. Makes more sense to me your way.

Interested to hear other's opinions as well.

B-Rye

As far as "dream the dreams of others and you will be no ones rival" I think it could go either way. As the above poster said, it could mean that you have to dream your own dreams. I could see it being interpreted as saying that you must dream as others do, maybe understand others, take their dreams into account, etc and then you will be unrivaled, or have no enemies. It could also mean both at the same time I guess.

That's the beauty of they poetry, such an apparently simple line can be viewed in vastly different ways. I love it

TheDecline13

"I'm not the paper/I'm more like the fold/Cut the crease put the shit in the whole."

my read on this is a Jay

slightofjeff

TheDecline13 wrote:

"I'm not the paper/I'm more like the fold/Cut the crease put the shit in the whole."

my read on this is a Jay

I can buy it. But if it does mean that ... how does it fit in the context of the song?
Maybe if I understood what "cut the crease" means.

orig_long red

Ed's a pothead. 'nuff said.

davidtrios

Love has to be mutual- you haver to give love give love give love...to get love.

there are TONS of lyrical GEMS on B A C K S P A C E R

10/10

TheDecline13

slightofjeff wrote:

TheDecline13 wrote:

"I'm not the paper/I'm more like the fold/Cut the crease put the shit in the whole."

my read on this is a Jay

I can buy it. But if it does mean that ... how does it fit in the context of the song?
Maybe if I understood what "cut the crease" means.

when i use to roll i had to cut the extra paper by creasing it and tearing it off.. every time i hear that line thats what it takes me back too

djjazzy276

Inmytree99 wrote:

Love has to be mutual- you haver to give love give love give love...to get love.

This is how I interpreted the line as well. You can receive love all you want, but it's impossible to truly feel and understand love completely until you give it in return, until an free and open exchange is taking place.

decides2dream

um, i take it as ed's version of:
if you love something(body) set them free...if they come back to you, they are yours...and if they don't, they never were.


also could simply mean......to feel love, to be in love....you have to 'give it up'...as in share, give, love. you gotta give love to feel love.



and in the end
the love you take
is equal to the love
you make

slightofjeff

TheDecline13 wrote:

when i use to roll i had to cut the extra paper by creasing it and tearing it off.. every time i hear that line thats what it takes me back too

So when Ed says he's not the paper, but he is the fold ... what the hell does that mean?

The lyric right before this one is about Ed knowing "nothing 'bout nothing" ... first time I heard this song I thought of "paper" as "newspaper" -- ie a purveyor of information. Ed knows nothing 'bout nothing; it's not like he's the paper.

But I have absolutely no idea where to take it from here.

B-Rye

decides2dream wrote:

um, i take it as ed's version of:
if you love something(body) set them free...if they come back to you, they are yours...and if they don't, they never were.


also could simply mean......to feel love, to be in love....you have to 'give it up'...as in share, give, love. you gotta give love to feel love.



and in the end
the love you take
is equal to the love
you make

Give it up could also be referring to letting down your guard/predispositions/expectations, giving up all the negatives....

einatshaul

Dream the dreams of other men – comes at a high point of the song, a top, exhilaration. It is an obvious positive for me, saying: Realize other people's Dreams, you'll benefit greater by doing that.
As when you settle down, and your dream is a shared one, or say… Even with a band, creating a bond which all five can thrive on

slightofjeff

Re: the "love ain't love" line ... are there parallels to GTF here? "The love he receives is the love that is saved?"

Or are we talking about two different concepts?

Speaking of amongst the waves ... another underrated line from early in the song "I've seen it work both ways."

When you think about the ocean (ie, being out amongst the waves) ... it can work two ways. You either drown in it, or you embrace it, you get on top of it ... you ride it. And those are really the only two choices.

I think Ed is using that as a metaphor for life. You can either let life overwhelm you and drown you, or you can rise above it, get on top of it, and enjoy it. In fact, I think that's the point of the song.

Someone on another thread presented ATW as sort of a positive addendum to Alive. In Alive, being alive was supposed to be a curse. In ATW, being alive is something to be celebrated.

decides2dream

B-Rye wrote:

As far as "dream the dreams of others and you will be no ones rival" I think it could go either way. As the above poster said, it could mean that you have to dream your own dreams. I could see it being interpreted as saying that you must dream as others do, maybe understand others, take their dreams into account, etc and then you will be unrivaled, or have no enemies. It could also mean both at the same time I guess.

That's the beauty of they poetry, such an apparently simple line can be viewed in vastly different ways. I love it

ooooohhhh...i like both of these takes on these lyrics, and i AGREE....that's what makes em so awesome.
also, the true beauty of art imo....the *truth* of it, is your own. even what ED says it 'means'....if he ever really does ....is HIS truth. your truth might well be different. that....is art.



jeff....go outside a bit. hahahah.


seriously....hmmmmm...i had NO idea about the jrolling connection, ,kida like it. and going on that, being the fold......he 'knows nothing'....he is just a purveyor of the information. so while he doesn't know anything, he is not the source (he is not the paper, nor the mj) he is that 'space' (the crease) where that info(or mj) goes........weirdness.......:P



i LOVe these lyric discussions!
soooooooo many various perspectives and ideas....and they are all too cool to consider.....

slightofjeff

decides2dream wrote:

ooooohhhh...i like both of these takes on these lyrics, and i AGREE....that's what makes em so awesome.
also, the true beauty of art imo....the *truth* of it, is your own. even what ED says it 'means'....if he ever really does ....is HIS truth. your truth might well be different. that....is art.

I'm not one to argue with Ed. And I always love knowing where songwriters get their inspiration. But sometimes I wish he'd shut up about this stuff.

Because once he tells me what it means, I have to go with that. And sometimes I don't want to.

TheDecline13

slightofjeff wrote:

TheDecline13 wrote:

when i use to roll i had to cut the extra paper by creasing it and tearing it off.. every time i hear that line thats what it takes me back too

So when Ed says he's not the paper, but he is the fold ... what the hell does that mean?

The lyric right before this one is about Ed knowing "nothing 'bout nothing" ... first time I heard this song I thought of "paper" as "newspaper" -- ie a purveyor of information. Ed knows nothing 'bout nothing; it's not like he's the paper.

But I have absolutely no idea where to take it from here.

hmmm I have no idea then the first thing that popped in my head was a joint, Im prob way off the mark

slightofjeff

TheDecline13 wrote:

hmmm I have no idea then the first thing that popped in my head was a joint, Im prob way off the mark

No, you might be right. And probably are.

decides2dream

also, in regards to force of nature and the exorcise/exercise bit....makes perfect sense to me...


Understand she’s a force of nature
Contraband hiding deep inside her soul
Exorcising her will to lose control
She lets go




why would she be 'exercising' her will to lose control......exorcising fits far better. she has 'contraband'....which what consititutes spiritual contraband is another thought entirely ....but if she is exorcising, meaning....getting the demons out of her will.....to lose control....makes more sense to me. the words/meanings 'fit' far better than 'exercise.'




jeff...i have to disagree with ya there. i enjoy hearing ED telling me what he meant, b/c it's a glimpse into his head, and let's face it...he really never says much anyway. however, it in no way interferes with my OWN interpretations, at most, it adds to it. what i dislike is when others try to tell me 'what a song IS'....definitively, b/c yes...that's just BS. as ed said in storytellers? i think....about his thoughts about alive, fans thoughts about alive...and how it morphed into something entirely new for him, for everyone. exactly. that's IT. your OWN truth. great stuff. sure, some of the shit people take outta some songs, or whatever at...i think, whoa...wtf, you're so off-base! but really, untrue. it may be off-base for me, but it's their truth in it. that's the orgasm of art to me. we all get off on it in our own ways, and there is no one right way, but your own way....and it's oh so cool..... plus, the more you share, the more and different ways you can get off...

slightofjeff

decides2dream wrote:

also, in regards to force of nature and the exorcise/exercise bit....makes perfect sense to me...


Understand she’s a force of nature
Contraband hiding deep inside her soul
Exorcising her will to lose control
She lets go




why would she be 'exercising' her will to lose control......exorcising fits far better. she has 'contraband'....which what consititutes spiritual contraband is another thought entirely ....but if she is exorcising, meaning....getting the demons out of her will.....to lose control....makes more sense to me. the words/meanings 'fit' far better than 'exercise.'

I agree totally. I love Ed's use of homophones. He does this quite a lot, using two words that sound the same, but you can't really tell the difference unless you look at the liner notes. Another prime example is "I Am Mine" -- did you know, according to the official lyrics, he toggles back and forth between the "innocence" lost at one time and the "innocents" lost at one time? Those two words don't exactly mean the same thing. Stuff like that is so cool to me.

(Another example: Violins/violence in Daughter)

Anyway, back to exorcising and excercising ... I think excercising would work under some interpretations. If you believe the woman in this song, say, has a drug problem ... exercising her will to lose control means she's, you know, losing control. Out on a bender again.

I think maybe the verb "excorcising" might refer to the man (the lighthouse) in this song. He's trying to rid her of this will to lose control.

decides2dream

slightofjeff wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

also, in regards to force of nature and the exorcise/exercise bit....makes perfect sense to me...


Understand she’s a force of nature
Contraband hiding deep inside her soul
Exorcising her will to lose control
She lets go




why would she be 'exercising' her will to lose control......exorcising fits far better. she has 'contraband'....which what consititutes spiritual contraband is another thought entirely ....but if she is exorcising, meaning....getting the demons out of her will.....to lose control....makes more sense to me. the words/meanings 'fit' far better than 'exercise.'

I agree totally. I love Ed's use of homophones. He does this quite a lot, using two words that sound the same, but you can't really tell the difference unless you look at the liner notes. Another prime example is "I Am Mine" -- did you know, according to the official lyrics, he toggles back and forth between the "innocence" lost at one time and the "innocents" lost at one time? Those two words don't exactly mean the same thing. Stuff like that is so cool to me.

(Another example: Violins/violence in Daughter)

Anyway, back to exorcising and excercising ... I think excercising would work under some interpretations. If you believe the woman in this song, say, has a drug problem ... exercising her will to lose control means she's, you know, losing control. Out on a bender again.

I think maybe the verb "excorcising" might refer to the man (the lighthouse) in this song. He's trying to rid her of this will to lose control.

i think i might be fallin' for ya jeff.....you lyric geek. :geek:
oh and homophones (and actually knowing/remembering that's what they're called) sexxxy. :twisted:



hahahahaha.
seriously, i LOVE this stuff!
i think you might be even 'more' into dissecting lyrics/meanings than i am.....you definitely look for more concrete *answers*...but still.....most enjoyable!



btw - while i'd not have been able to pull it outta memory, since you mention it...yes, i do recall that for i am mine.

Stephen Flow

I can go w/ the whole jay-rolling thing... but the one part that bothers me is "put the shit in the whole"... does that mean put the shit (weed) in the whole thing? lol... like so the weed takes up all of the space inside the rolling paper?

PJStatTracker

I've been thinking a lot about the "dream the dreams of other men; you'll be no one's rival" line as well. It's probably my favorite line on the whole album, and I find that I want him to keep singing it over and over at the end of that song, even though he doesn't. I also struggle with its meaning...

my current interpretation is that it's a statement of peace... That we should find common dreams and goals and work together to realize them. There are things in the world that are good (education, eradication of poverty, etc. etc.), and if we focus our energies on these dreams, we would have no rivals (a good thing)...I think its a hopeful line about finding commonalities and how great that can be.

I'll probably decide it means something different tomorrow though...hahaha

rebornFixer

My view is similar to decidestodream's, I think ... "Love ain't no love till you give it up" could refer to giving up certain problematic behaviors or emotions, such as jealousy or a need to control someone's behavior ... In order to truly trust someone (and therefore love them), you have to feel secure enough to let them make their own choices, to give up attempts to control them, to "set them free", so to speak, and let them come back (if indeed they are going to come back). There are also echoes of this theme in Unthought Known, specifically the man/rival line.

slightofjeff

decides2dream wrote:

i think i might be fallin' for ya jeff.....you lyric geek. :geek:
oh and homophones (and actually knowing/remembering that's what they're called) sexxxy. :twisted:

Lyric geek. That's a pretty good description. I spend way too much time thinking about this stuff than is healthy/normal.

norm

"Love ain't love until you give it up" -- ev


"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone" -- joni mitchell

slightofjeff

norm wrote:

"Love ain't love until you give it up" -- ev


"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone" -- joni mitchell

Are you sure that's not a Counting Crows line?

norm

slightofjeff wrote:

norm wrote:

"Love ain't love until you give it up" -- ev


"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone" -- joni mitchell

Are you sure that's not a Counting Crows line?

if so they stole it from joni...and i couldn't name a counting crows line to save my life

dimitrispearljam

einatshaul wrote:

Dream the dreams of other men – comes at a high point of the song, a top, exhilaration. It is an obvious positive for me, saying: Realize other people's Dreams, you'll benefit greater by doing that.
As when you settle down, and your dream is a shared one, or say… Even with a band, creating a bond which all five can thrive on

Dreams..