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Dream the dreams of other men

troubled_soultroubled_soul Posts: 56
edited April 2012 in Words and Music...Communication
Dream the dreams of other men, you'll be no one's RIVAL!

This lyrics has intrigued me more than anything else on the album. I can't stop thinking about it.

On first thought, its goes against the common belief in society about the importance of indivdual dreams and the pursuit of your dreams. So why would you dream the dream of other men? I think he might be saying that if we are able to put ourselves in someone's or a group of people's mindset by dreaming their dreams instead of our own, maybe we can get along. How can you be someone's rival or enemy if you share or at least understand their dreams.

What do you think about this lyric? Am I close?
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Comments

  • GW119347GW119347 Posts: 12
    Martin Luther King had a dream many years ago and our collective reality today is not quite there. I believe Obama may have something to do with this. The psyche of the individual and the masses are two seperate things. Many books have been written. Advertising holds this as a key. An individual dream is meant to seperate, versus bring us together. The universe knows no differences. Unthought known
  • AH83260AH83260 Posts: 1
    I think it's one of Vedder's greatest lyrics and Pearl Jam's greatest songs. Really hooks you in and you're left trying to decipher every little detail (bit like Corduroy).

    I like your description 'the universe knows no difference' - that's got me off thinking about something else.

    Really should stop with all this thinking.
  • DangDangDangDang Posts: 1,551
    Yes, that line defines "undertstanding" like I've never heard before.

    I can't believe the power behind that song. It's overwhelming. Talk about a song giving you chills, I was driving down the street listening to it and crying. What is Pearl Jam trying to do, kill us?

    I was "skeptical" when I heard the good reviews of the album. I mean Pearl Jam songs are already great, how can they do better? Well, they did.
  • Got a hard hard headGot a hard hard head Posts: 638
    It's an incredibly powerful song with great lyrics.

    I think the song makes a very positive statement. Look at the beauty of life itself, open your eyes and look with your mind at things you've taken for granted.

    See the path cut by the moon
    For you to walk on
    For you to walk on

    A very emotive song. I've only just gotten over nearly blubbing when Eddie sang 'Long Road' at Manchester and now this....
    It's gonna be a glorious day...
  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    I adore the song, and the lyric. There is a shadow of ambivalence in me about it. Being a woman, and the soulmate of a very strong willed person, I sometimes feel dreaming the dreams of other men is risky business. Yet I remind myself that dreams are not exclusive. You can dream yours and ALSO those of others. Moreover, I agree that sharing someone's DREAM, as opposed to ideas, plans, projects... "brings you closer to a person"

    Hopefully no spanking involved :P
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • halszka123halszka123 Posts: 1,109
    I was curious about this sentence too.
    It would be easier if the sentence was: Live the dreams of other men..
    which means - share in peace and understanding the dreams of others, so You can become their friend.
    But dreaming the dreams sounds like stealing the dreams, and trying to become like other man, trying to go their way, not your own - so this means that You can be the rival.
    Not 10c member? Have sth to say? write to me - I'll put it on the forum
    halszka123@op.pl
  • DangDangDangDang Posts: 1,551
    Dream the dreams of other men, to me, is like the same as "walk a mile in my shoes"

    As in, "Walk in my shoes, dream my dreams, and THEN you will understand me and we will then not be rivals."

    You don't have to give up your own dreams, you can dream the dreams of other men also. Just like after you walk that mile, and give back the moccasins, or bowling shoes--whatever, you put your own two shoes back on.
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,720
    no worries..he talks about me..thanks ED..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • prezesprezes Posts: 34
    I've got no idea what to think about it...
    Why shouldn't I dream my own dreams??? I don't need someone else's dreams. Is it what the song is advocating? To settle for someone else's dreams? Puzzling.

    I liked the post about spanking though :)
  • Break The SkyBreak The Sky Posts: 1,276
    troubled_soul wrote:
    Dream the dreams of other men, you'll be no one's RIVAL!

    STAND AGAINST THE MASSES! DO NOT BE A LEMMING! DO NOT BE A MINDLESS SHEEP FOLLOWING HIS SHEPARD TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE! DREAM YOUR OWN DREAMS! PLAY THE VILLAIN IN THE MINDS OF THE IGNORANT! THIS IS YOUR LIFE.

    The thoughts of geniuses have always been criticized by those with minds too narrow to comprehend. Would you dream the dreams of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, etc., just to fit in?

    I know those are extreme examples but understand that this song is not about complacency, it's about standing up and calling bullshit when you see it. The weak are always intimidated by the strong. Don't buy into the weak masses! Be the strong individual!

    Dream your dreams! Live your life! Fuck every son of a bitch who says "you can't." Prove them wrong. Be the rival.
    If hope can grow from dirt like me ...
  • burtschipsburtschips Posts: 734
    i go along with the first two posts... the universe knows no differences, yeah maybe. I think it is about oneness, you me, me you, that theme. A bit of a sidhartha, he only finds peace when he becomes the river at the end of the journey... or something along those lines. But really, you read it how you read it. It's a great line, I listened to the vinyl for the first time today and flicked through the booklet, I think the lyrics as a collection are great.
    Salut baloo
  • Sir. PJSir. PJ Posts: 149
    I honestly have not tried to endlessly dissect a lot of the lyrics on Backspacer (except for The End's) after Ed said in interviews that he tried to spend no more that 30 minutes writing lyrics to any one song.

    c'mon, lyrics should be proof-read

    When I was first looking at the footnotes to Yeild, Binaural, and Riot Act, for example, I spent hours reading each song as if it were just a piece of poetry, trying to dissect the lyrics meaning. Especially on Sleight of Hand, my favorite PJ lyrics of all time.

    But even when I do catch myself looking into Backspacers' as much as you guys are, I think back to those quotes by Eddie, and just think, Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

    His lyrics on Backspacer are beautiful, yes, and fit every song perfectly, and I love them; but you guys just cant read into them the same way you could with previous albums
  • weenieweenie Posts: 1,623
    Within the context of the whole song, and the line following (you'll be no one's rival), I believe Ed is talking about love. If you truly "love" someone, you put aside petty differences and rejoice in your loved one's sucesses rather than feel jealousy and envy. We all have dreams and if we truly felt love for one another (mankind as a whole), we could support the "dreams of other men", join in their quest to achieve those dreams and feel no jealousy or envy (be no one's rival) while in pursuit of the same goal.

    For me, the song talks about the ability to love one another, and to give to one another without having expectations of receiving in return. Having the ability to give that much of ourselves to others makes us part of something much larger than society itself. Our love of one another raises us up - as part of the universe, able to take the "path cut by the moon" for us to walk on.
    "nothing left, nothing left" I think refers to material posessions.

    I could go on and on. Whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter because I get a feeling - inspiration if you will - from this song that can't be measured by words. It's so beautiful and so motivating. I could listen to it a 1.000 times and never tire of it. :D
    Thank you Ed for the most beautiful lyrics you've ever written.
    ~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
    Mohandas K. Gandhi

    ~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
    Henry David Thoreau
  • samjamsamjam New York Posts: 9,283
    That lyric struck me immediately on first listen as well. I think I even repeated it aloud thinking about it! Another gem from Mr. Vedder! The man is a freaking genius.
    "Sometimes you find yourself having to put all your faith in no faith."
    ~not a dude~
    2010: MSGx2
    2012: Made In America
    2013: Pittsburgh, Brooklynx2, Hartford, Baltimore
    2014: Leeds, Milton Keynes, Detroit
    2015: Global Citizen Festival
    2016: Phillyx2, MSGx2, Fenwayx2
    2018: Barcelona, Wrigleyx2
  • lovepearljamlovepearljam Posts: 7
    Should you dream the dream of other men? Rivalry doesn't have to be a bad thing, althogh it does sound quite aggressive, a rival can also make you want to be a better person. To be no ones rival I think you are playing it safe, we would all be sheep, no one rising above. Dream your OWN dream and maybe you will do better than another!!?

    Although if we all dream the same thing, then we will all want/ strive towards the same thing, which would be fine if we were all great people and only wanted world peace etc. etc.

    We are all individual and SO special... "feel the sky blanket you...with gems and rhinestones,..."
  • PJRock75PJRock75 Posts: 869
    weenie wrote:
    Within the context of the whole song, and the line following (you'll be no one's rival), I believe Ed is talking about love. If you truly "love" someone, you put aside petty differences and rejoice in your loved one's sucesses rather than feel jealousy and envy. We all have dreams and if we truly felt love for one another (mankind as a whole), we could support the "dreams of other men", join in their quest to achieve those dreams and feel no jealousy or envy (be no one's rival) while in pursuit of the same goal.

    For me, the song talks about the ability to love one another, and to give to one another without having expectations of receiving in return. Having the ability to give that much of ourselves to others makes us part of something much larger than society itself. Our love of one another raises us up - as part of the universe, able to take the "path cut by the moon" for us to walk on.
    "nothing left, nothing left" I think refers to material posessions.

    I could go on and on. Whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter because I get a feeling - inspiration if you will - from this song that can't be measured by words. It's so beautiful and so motivating. I could listen to it a 1.000 times and never tire of it. :D
    Thank you Ed for the most beautiful lyrics you've ever written.

    Ladies and gentleman, I believe we have a winner!! I agree 100%....even with how you personally feel about the power of this song....truely Epic and soul shaking!
    "If you want a friend, feed any animal." - JA
    "Don't let it get you down, you know, still give your love, just give it away...I love singin' that part." - EV
  • weenieweenie Posts: 1,623
    PJRock75 wrote:
    weenie wrote:
    Within the context of the whole song, and the line following (you'll be no one's rival), I believe Ed is talking about love. If you truly "love" someone, you put aside petty differences and rejoice in your loved one's sucesses rather than feel jealousy and envy. We all have dreams and if we truly felt love for one another (mankind as a whole), we could support the "dreams of other men", join in their quest to achieve those dreams and feel no jealousy or envy (be no one's rival) while in pursuit of the same goal.

    For me, the song talks about the ability to love one another, and to give to one another without having expectations of receiving in return. Having the ability to give that much of ourselves to others makes us part of something much larger than society itself. Our love of one another raises us up - as part of the universe, able to take the "path cut by the moon" for us to walk on.
    "nothing left, nothing left" I think refers to material posessions.

    I could go on and on. Whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter because I get a feeling - inspiration if you will - from this song that can't be measured by words. It's so beautiful and so motivating. I could listen to it a 1.000 times and never tire of it. :D
    Thank you Ed for the most beautiful lyrics you've ever written.

    Ladies and gentleman, I believe we have a winner!! I agree 100%....even with how you personally feel about the power of this song....truely Epic and soul shaking!


    Aww, thanks PJRock75! Made my day that you get what I'm saying and feel the same way. :thumbup:
    Have a good one....
    Darlene
    ~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
    Mohandas K. Gandhi

    ~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
    Henry David Thoreau
  • PJRock75PJRock75 Posts: 869
    You bet!!! To me it simply means to not only have your dreams but share in a communal way of thinking...a non-selfish appraoch and to think as a whole human race....for peace, for love....basically, it's a drive that each one of us has inside, a drive we need in order to survive as a race.

    EV is truely the greatest/most important songwriter in our time.
    "If you want a friend, feed any animal." - JA
    "Don't let it get you down, you know, still give your love, just give it away...I love singin' that part." - EV
  • weenieweenie Posts: 1,623
    PJRock75 wrote:
    You bet!!! To me it simply means to not only have your dreams but share in a communal way of thinking...a non-selfish appraoch and to think as a whole human race....for peace, for love....basically, it's a drive that each one of us has inside, a drive we need in order to survive as a race.

    EV is truely the greatest/most important songwriter in our time.

    Now, if we could just get the other 400 million+ folks in this country to feel the same, it'd really be something wouldn't it? :clap::D
    ~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
    Mohandas K. Gandhi

    ~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
    Henry David Thoreau
  • shelley123shelley123 Posts: 9
    Hey there! I’m only a brand newby to 10C but I’ve been keeping an ear and eye on PJ since the heady early days and I am not usually so swayed into the whole fan club thing. You are all quite a unique and wonderful bunch of people and though I just love to take a quiet seat at the back and listen I had to come down to the field this time!!! This song Unthought Known has dragged me in here not so kicking and screaming but with sheer exhilaration ‘cause I was at the Adelaide concert and this one rang out like a soul anthem that left me with tears of recognition and understanding I just had to come say something here. It struck me at first listen of Backspacer and I was so swept up hearing it live. If you’ll indulge me here’s what I think…

    “All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible.”
    TE Lawrence "Seven Pillars of Wisdom"

    This of course is “Lawrence of Arabia”…men like this with nothing to gain for themselves personally but see their purpose in fighting for the rights of others who can only but dream. Yes it’s a much bigger and grander dream than most of us can imagine but we can all dream the dreams of other men…fight for the one’s who can’t fight for themselves. This is a song to encourage those that “can” do something “should” do something because out of this comes your own reckoning and sometimes just every now and then, legends are born. Of course most of us won’t become legend on this scale but we can become legend in our own lives. We spend so much time thinking and often wallowing in our own pity of what we don’t have, or what we could have been, or what we think we deserve. Now what about “All the thoughts…you never see”!!!! We are all burdened with the capacity for greatness but few of us ever realise our worth and pursue it. The point being…what are you thinking about and are you going to be stuck just thinking, are you going under with all this thinking? Maybe our escape is when thinking turns into action.

    Dreams aren’t just for the mind to wander off in fantasy…they are for living with purpose so you don’t have to try and “white knuckle it” every day! Don’t just think…dream…and don’t just dream…dream the dreams of other men…don’t just dream the dreams of other men…dream the dreams of other men with your eyes wide open!! It’s the thoughts that trap us and hold us captive not the living. This is a call to arms folks…arm yourself with love and dreams…”you’ll be no one’s rival”…no one can hold you back or will want to hold you back, no matter how small or large the difference you make will be. It probably won’t be Lawrence of Arabia epic proportions but wherever you are and whatever you are doing, there is a purpose for you and if you can’t find it then open your eyes when you dream! You don’t know what you might start and it may just grow to proportions you could have never imagined…“a path cut by the moon for you to walk on” “feel the sky blanket you with gems and rhinestones” “the waves on distant shores awaiting your arrival”. All this has been done just for you if only you will see yourself, your beauty and your worth, and your purpose in it. You will get more from your life when you consider what the person beside you is going through. Your life will get even bigger and more terrifying but so thrilling and satisfying when you do something that doesn’t benefit you but the one who can ONLY dream. If you can make it a reality for them “what you giving?” becomes a reality for you and not just a lyric in a brilliant song!

    Whew….that’s a ramble and a half!! Sorry.... ;) ... Well that’s what I think this song is saying! How do I know this...I was set on my own path out of the "darkness" many years back and its taking time but I am getting there. It's not "Lawrence of Arabia" but its my little purpose in life and it might just might make a difference :) Here's my mantra...."don't wait for the light at the end of the tunnel...stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself".

    Anyway that is what I hear in this song and I feel like I’ve been smacked in the choppers and screamed at "wake up and keep going"! :shock: Someone out there gets it!

    What a thrill…hehe…I’ll go back to the seats now but I doubt I’ll ever sit down again. So nice to be here! :D
    Cheers
    Shelley
    Don't wait for the light to appear at the end of the tunnel.....stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!
  • weenieweenie Posts: 1,623
    shelley123 wrote:
    Hey there! I’m only a brand newby to 10C but I’ve been keeping an ear and eye on PJ since the heady early days and I am not usually so swayed into the whole fan club thing. You are all quite a unique and wonderful bunch of people and though I just love to take a quiet seat at the back and listen I had to come down to the field this time!!! This song Unthought Known has dragged me in here not so kicking and screaming but with sheer exhilaration ‘cause I was at the Adelaide concert and this one rang out like a soul anthem that left me with tears of recognition and understanding I just had to come say something here. It struck me at first listen of Backspacer and I was so swept up hearing it live. If you’ll indulge me here’s what I think…

    “All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible.”
    TE Lawrence "Seven Pillars of Wisdom"

    This of course is “Lawrence of Arabia”…men like this with nothing to gain for themselves personally but see their purpose in fighting for the rights of others who can only but dream. Yes it’s a much bigger and grander dream than most of us can imagine but we can all dream the dreams of other men…fight for the one’s who can’t fight for themselves. This is a song to encourage those that “can” do something “should” do something because out of this comes your own reckoning and sometimes just every now and then, legends are born. Of course most of us won’t become legend on this scale but we can become legend in our own lives. We spend so much time thinking and often wallowing in our own pity of what we don’t have, or what we could have been, or what we think we deserve. Now what about “All the thoughts…you never see”!!!! We are all burdened with the capacity for greatness but few of us ever realise our worth and pursue it. The point being…what are you thinking about and are you going to be stuck just thinking, are you going under with all this thinking? Maybe our escape is when thinking turns into action.

    Dreams aren’t just for the mind to wander off in fantasy…they are for living with purpose so you don’t have to try and “white knuckle it” every day! Don’t just think…dream…and don’t just dream…dream the dreams of other men…don’t just dream the dreams of other men…dream the dreams of other men with your eyes wide open!! It’s the thoughts that trap us and hold us captive not the living. This is a call to arms folks…arm yourself with love and dreams…”you’ll be no one’s rival”…no one can hold you back or will want to hold you back, no matter how small or large the difference you make will be. It probably won’t be Lawrence of Arabia epic proportions but wherever you are and whatever you are doing, there is a purpose for you and if you can’t find it then open your eyes when you dream! You don’t know what you might start and it may just grow to proportions you could have never imagined…“a path cut by the moon for you to walk on” “feel the sky blanket you with gems and rhinestones” “the waves on distant shores awaiting your arrival”. All this has been done just for you if only you will see yourself, your beauty and your worth, and your purpose in it. You will get more from your life when you consider what the person beside you is going through. Your life will get even bigger and more terrifying but so thrilling and satisfying when you do something that doesn’t benefit you but the one who can ONLY dream. If you can make it a reality for them “what you giving?” becomes a reality for you and not just a lyric in a brilliant song!

    Whew….that’s a ramble and a half!! Sorry.... ;) ... Well that’s what I think this song is saying! How do I know this...I was set on my own path out of the "darkness" many years back and its taking time but I am getting there. It's not "Lawrence of Arabia" but its my little purpose in life and it might just might make a difference :) Here's my mantra...."don't wait for the light at the end of the tunnel...stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself".

    Anyway that is what I hear in this song and I feel like I’ve been smacked in the choppers and screamed at "wake up and keep going"! :shock: Someone out there gets it!

    What a thrill…hehe…I’ll go back to the seats now but I doubt I’ll ever sit down again. So nice to be here! :D
    Cheers
    Shelley

    Welcome Shelley! Thanks for sharing with us. Don't be such a stranger.... ;)
    ~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
    Mohandas K. Gandhi

    ~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
    Henry David Thoreau
  • Sleep.With.InnocenceSleep.With.Innocence Posts: 607
    samjam wrote:
    That lyric struck me immediately on first listen as well. I think I even repeated it aloud thinking about it! Another gem from Mr. Vedder! The man is a freaking genius.

    +1

    He's by far the best songwritter of our generation.

    Neil Young is good, but you can't find the depth that you find in Eddie Vedder (songs like NAIS and Who You Are really stand out to me, it's amazing to think of the mans genius.)
  • shelley123shelley123 Posts: 9
    weenie wrote:

    Welcome Shelley! Thanks for sharing with us. Don't be such a stranger.... ;)



    Thanks weenie! And I'll try not to be! Nice to meet you...:thumbup:
    Don't wait for the light to appear at the end of the tunnel.....stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!
  • theserialthrillatheserialthrilla Posts: 15,760
    i would like to say to the comments above...this is what this site is about ..you guys/girls may say what you feel a song means to you..some people will dissagree other agree..but you feel for this song and it was put so nicely ..no I THINK ITS THE BEST no,, DO YOU FEEL THE MEANING..

    nicely said ..

    thanks and i agree
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  • cookiescookies Posts: 113
    I think this goes back to Gone. This American dream I am disbelieving... Dream the Dreams of other men you will be no one rival. Who ever posted make your own way I feel was right. That has been said since the original track of yellow ledbetter.

    Thanks so much for this post reading other peoples view help go down a better path.
    Cookies
    ôjô
  • anus ankle soupanus ankle soup massachusetts Posts: 124
    Hey, long time fan, just joined 10 Club! I could read these community posts all night. I have to agree with Big Drop" but not as strongly. To me this song is about the struggles of going it alone sometimes, "breating hard...this is living" and the challenges of being your own person. I think it's saying when you feel like others are against you(sad and sickening) but you press on for something you believe in, and follow your own dreams you will find your rewards (gems and rinestones). In the end, if you go with the massess, and dream the dreams of others, you will have no rivals, but will also miss out on the rewards. There is a cool video someone made on youtube, its under "Pearl Jam unthought known iet evolve" that actually brought a tear to my eye.
    How I choose to feel is how I am.
  • dcfaithfuldcfaithful Posts: 13,076
    DangDang wrote:
    Dream the dreams of other men, to me, is like the same as "walk a mile in my shoes"

    As in, "Walk in my shoes, dream my dreams, and THEN you will understand me and we will then not be rivals."

    That really helped me put that lyric into perspective.
    7/2/06 - Denver, CO
    6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
    8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
    9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
    9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
    9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
  • JDBJDB Posts: 277
    The whole song is about achieving what you want out of life. Nobody can get the things they want without the help of others. Life's not a competition. Everything you want, you can have. If you can see other peoples visions then you can help them achieve their goals. The more people you help, the more people will help you achieve your goals. It's based on the old adage of you will reap what you sew. Hence the question "so what you giving?" at the end of the song. The more you give/help, the more love, happiness, success you will recieve.
  • redeyeredeye Posts: 620
    nice analogy
  • emmadogemmadog Posts: 32
    I feel that if you dream someone else's dream you are truly at peace with not only yourself, but now in a higher place to add an energy that will push love forward. When at the point or place in your life and heart that you can put other people first because you are at peace ...this is the most human you can be. Not forgetting your own dream... instead making others dreams your own simply because you feel it is right.

    I really like to re-remember who I am and can do this through this forum!~ Thank you!
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