Where is PJ's creativity

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  • yosi wrote:

    I think I do accept it for what it is. It just so happens that what it is doesn't happen to grab me all that much. And I'm not saying the band doesn't have the right to do that, etc. They can do whatever they want and that's fine, but I'm going to like somethings better than others, and I'm going to have an opinion on whatever it is they do (at least musically).

    Yeah its not like you have to enjoy it, but if you truly accept it for what it is then you wouldnt say it isnt a cohesive album. This is definitely their most cohesive album since yield and possibly of their career. I hated it after the first 2 listens. I was fighting it and was mad that the band went in this "cheesy" direction. Once I got over myself, I cant even look at individual songs anymore, its just Backspacer, and its amazing. A true album, as close to being a concept album you can get without actually being one.
  • danleridanleri Posts: 497
    stranger34 wrote:
    Riot Act is like a novel. Backspacer is like an entertaining comic book with some insights.


    this is the single greatest line for a review I've read so far.
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  • danleri wrote:
    stranger34 wrote:
    Riot Act is like a novel. Backspacer is like an entertaining comic book with some insights.

    this is the single greatest line for a review I've read so far.

    Comics are all insight. Thats a good way to put it, but I must say, I think their comic book blows away their novel. When you have EV as your frontman, novels should be few and far between, its a waste of his passion.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,074
    Mortality wrote:
    yosi wrote:

    I think I do accept it for what it is. It just so happens that what it is doesn't happen to grab me all that much. And I'm not saying the band doesn't have the right to do that, etc. They can do whatever they want and that's fine, but I'm going to like somethings better than others, and I'm going to have an opinion on whatever it is they do (at least musically).

    Yeah its not like you have to enjoy it, but if you truly accept it for what it is then you wouldnt say it isnt a cohesive album. This is definitely their most cohesive album since yield and possibly of their career. I hated it after the first 2 listens. I was fighting it and was mad that the band went in this "cheesy" direction. Once I got over myself, I cant even look at individual songs anymore, its just Backspacer, and its amazing. A true album, as close to being a concept album you can get without actually being one.

    I don't agree with you, which is fine. But I actually think that Backspacer is their least cohesive album, with the possible exception of No Code. The only difference for me is that I like the songs on No Code more than Backspacer.

    I just think that there is no real connection between the first couple of songs and the second half of the album. I think that the ITW leftovers just don't really fit with the rock. The only thing that is semi-consistent is a level of cheesiness (in my opinion) on the second 2/3 of the album, but that hardly qualifies as cohesive. And I don't think this sounds anything like a concept album.

    But again, to each his/her own.
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  • FlaggFlagg Posts: 5,856
    yosi wrote:

    CropDuster, Ghost, Get Right, Save you & LBC have very little imagination at all.

    So very, very wrong. All those songs are better than anything on Backspacer with the exception of maybe Got Some.

    Even the band doesn't like those songs. Save You is the only Riot Act song that even gets play time anymore.
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  • yosi wrote:

    I just think that there is no real connection between the first couple of songs and the second half of the album. I think that the ITW leftovers just don't really fit with the rock. The only thing that is semi-consistent is a level of cheesiness (in my opinion) on the second 2/3 of the album, but that hardly qualifies as cohesive. And I don't think this sounds anything like a concept album.

    But again, to each his/her own.

    All the songs have a different pace, but all the songs have that 80's pop-rock sound. The album has a mood, I like to call it optimistic depression. Johnny Guitar would sound out of place on any other of their 8 studio albums, but it has a place and blends here. I cant convince you, but dont want you to give up on it. Only multiple focused listens can do that, and I mean hey, you are in the fan club so I figure youll be doing that anyway.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,074
    edited September 2009
    Flagg wrote:
    yosi wrote:

    CropDuster, Ghost, Get Right, Save you & LBC have very little imagination at all.

    So very, very wrong. All those songs are better than anything on Backspacer with the exception of maybe Got Some.

    Even the band doesn't like those songs. Save You is the only Riot Act song that even gets play time anymore.

    What about You Are, and 1/2 Full? And I'm pretty sure I got to see Cropduster last tour, and LBC generally pops up and so does I am Mine. By the by, there are plenty of songs that I love on Yield/Binaural that don't get much play either.

    I know you keep saying "the band doesn't like Riot Act", but just because you don't, and because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

    Also, I don't really care which record the band likes best, I don't have to have the same opinion as them.
    Post edited by yosi on
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Flagg wrote:
    yosi wrote:

    CropDuster, Ghost, Get Right, Save you & LBC have very little imagination at all.

    So very, very wrong. All those songs are better than anything on Backspacer with the exception of maybe Got Some.

    Even the band doesn't like those songs. Save You is the only Riot Act song that even gets play time anymore.

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D
  • Flagg wrote:
    yosi wrote:

    CropDuster, Ghost, Get Right, Save you & LBC have very little imagination at all.

    So very, very wrong. All those songs are better than anything on Backspacer with the exception of maybe Got Some.

    Even the band doesn't like those songs. Save You is the only Riot Act song that even gets play time anymore.

    I was looking at the set lists from this tour and I Am Mine got played about twice, Save You a couple of times and a random outing for 1/2 Full. Riot Act may not be considered the pinnacle of the band's output but I think LBC, Can't Keep, Green Disease, Thumbing My Way, You Are and All Or None deserve a bit more love!
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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 21,411
    I was looking at the set lists from this tour and I Am Mine got played about twice, Save You a couple of times and a random outing for 1/2 Full. Riot Act may not be considered the pinnacle of the band's output but I think LBC, Can't Keep, Green Disease, Thumbing My Way, You Are and All Or None deserve a bit more love!

    agreed....I'm amazed at some of the songs that haven't been played in like 6 years....great songs!!
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  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,074
    Mortality wrote:

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D

    To each his own. You guys think I'm missing out on not loving this album, but I think you're all missing out on the greatness that is Riot Act.
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  • Evolution6579Evolution6579 Posts: 624
    edited September 2009
    yosi wrote:
    Mortality wrote:

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D

    To each his own. You guys think I'm missing out on not loving this album, but I think you're all missing out on the greatness that is Riot Act.

    For real. Ghost, All Or None, I Am Mine, Cropduster, Green Disease. It's funny that people always talk about Pearl Jam's constant evolution of sound, but then they bash albums they don't like. You cant make a blanket statement like that and then rescind it when stuff doesn't go your way. That's part of the system they are railing against on Riot Act.

    Also, if you are a Pearl Jam fan, which we would all claim, then you understand and connect with the music they produce. Riot Act was an album full of emotion and disgust, hope and understanding. If you cant get in touch with these emotions when you listen to it, you must not have a grasp on the human condition.

    Some people just cant see the forest for the trees.
    Post edited by Evolution6579 on
    Chicago 8-23-09

  • yosi wrote:
    Mortality wrote:

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D

    To each his own. You guys think I'm missing out on not loving this album, but I think you're all missing out on the greatness that is Riot Act.

    I love Riot Act. I love everything this band puts out because I respect the band. I know they put heart and truth in their music, so I give the same heart into listening and deciphering. If I dont like an album at first, I keep listening until I do, because I know it is my own limitations and being stuck in a genre of music I like. Believe me, it has paid off, because every album they have done is classic, and most have expanded my musical horizons. I dont force myself to like their work, I just trust them so much, that I force myself to keep listening until I come around. The music just sits there, its the person that needs to meet the music.

    By the way, Down and Cant keep are still the best songs from those sessions. You Are live rocks as well.
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    to me when i think of PJ i think of songs that are not straight forward weather it be the songs atmosphere or strong leadguitar or they way eddie layers his voice over the music in his unique way, its like hes kind of off beat. But this album is a radio album, all songs are simplistic (the are a few exceptions) to me these songs are so boring, i end up switching to the next track about 1/2 way through the song. I like it because its fresh new PJ but i don't like the direction at all, if maturity is being a pop rock band like nickleback then thats not what i want.
  • yosi wrote:
    Mortality wrote:

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D

    It's funny that people always talk about Pearl Jam's constant evolution of sound, but then they bash albums they don't like. You cant make a blanket statement like that and then rescind it when stuff doesn't go your way.

    What?? Yeah I BASHED Riot Act because I said what the 2 best songs were. I love Riot Act.
  • danleridanleri Posts: 497
    yosi wrote:
    Mortality wrote:

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D

    To each his own. You guys think I'm missing out on not loving this album, but I think you're all missing out on the greatness that is Riot Act.


    I absolutely love Riot Act. And funny enough I still remember when I bought it... I listened to it and didn't really understand it obviously, then I just didn't listen to it for almost a whole year and then I picked it up again from my shelf and there I was... absolutely fallen in love with it. I won't waste a year away for Backspacer now... I am listening to it over and over and I am still convinced of what I said before on this same thread.
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  • HeidiJam wrote:
    to me when i think of PJ i think of songs that are not straight forward weather it be the songs atmosphere or strong leadguitar or they way eddie layers his voice over the music in his unique way, its like hes kind of off beat. But this album is a radio album, all songs are simplistic (the are a few exceptions) to me these songs are so boring, i end up switching to the next track about 1/2 way through the song. I like it because its fresh new PJ but i don't like the direction at all, if maturity is being a pop rock band like nickleback then thats not what i want.

    It really bothers me that you would compare this to nickleback. Nickleback is just doing a softer version of grunge over and over and over. Yeah, this is a pop album, but not a watered down grunge band like Nickleback, jeez. The integrity of the music is still exactly the same as it has always been for PJ, it is just focused in an 80's pop-rock vision for ONE album. You act like the next album is going to be New Wave as well.
  • Evolution6579Evolution6579 Posts: 624
    edited September 2009
    HeidiJam wrote:
    to me when i think of PJ i think of songs that are not straight forward weather it be the songs atmosphere or strong leadguitar or they way eddie layers his voice over the music in his unique way, its like hes kind of off beat. But this album is a radio album, all songs are simplistic (the are a few exceptions)

    I hope Johnny Guitar is one of your favorites cause it encompasses what you just pointed out.

    Just Breathe and Unthought Known(atmosphere), Amongst The Waves(atmosphere and strong lead guitar) are as well. And listen to Gonna See My Friend. The way Jeff and Matt play off of each other...that song is far from simplistic.
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  • danleri wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Mortality wrote:

    The best song on Riot Act is Down. I think that says it all.

    PS...Cant Keep on Uke is actually the best song. :D

    To each his own. You guys think I'm missing out on not loving this album, but I think you're all missing out on the greatness that is Riot Act.


    I absolutely love Riot Act. And funny enough I still remember when I bought it... I listened to it and didn't really understand it obviously, then I just didn't listen to it for almost a whole year and then I picked it up again from my shelf and there I was... absolutely fallen in love with it. I won't waste a year away for Backspacer now... I am listening to it over and over and I am still convinced of what I said before on this same thread.

    Its not so much the listening over and over, it actually was the year off from Riot Act that caused you to love it. Before an album comes out, everyone has ideas about what it will be like, and then the album is nothing like it, especially with PJ. Then the album gets dismissed and put on a shelf, but the songs keep bouncing around in your sub-conscious. Then a year later you give the album another chance without the hype or expectations, but with the melodies buried deep in your brain, and it all comes together.
  • dirtyTdirtyT Posts: 3,620
    hedave wrote:
    Some of the lyrics are some of Eddie's best. But oh, well. Too bad you're a hater. :D
    Agree 100%. I myself love this album. I am going to give it a few weeks of listening before I rank...but I can say now that I believe there are 3 songs, (Just Breathe, Amongst The Waves, and Unthought Known) that are some of the best PJ written....just my humble opinion.
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  • dirtyT wrote:
    hedave wrote:
    Some of the lyrics are some of Eddie's best. But oh, well. Too bad you're a hater. :D
    Agree 100%. I myself love this album. I am going to give it a few weeks of listening before I rank...but I can say now that I believe there are 3 songs, (Just Breathe, Amongst The Waves, and Unthought Known) that are some of the best PJ written....just my humble opinion.

    Not only that, they come bang bang bang on the album. So awesome.
  • rival.rival. Chicago Posts: 7,775
    i am really enjoying the album right now because it is new and exciting. let's see how it holds up against the test of time.

    not sure where it ranks, but light years better than riot act & self titled.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 21,411
    HeidiJam wrote:
    to me when i think of PJ i think of songs that are not straight forward weather it be the songs atmosphere or strong leadguitar or they way eddie layers his voice over the music in his unique way, its like hes kind of off beat. But this album is a radio album, all songs are simplistic (the are a few exceptions)

    I hope Johnny Guitar is one of your favorites cause it encompasses what you just pointed out.

    Just Breathe and Unthought Known(atmosphere), Amongst The Waves(atmosphere and strong lead guitar) are as well. And listen to Gonna See My Friend. The way Jeff and Matt play off of each other...that song is far from simplistic.

    agreed....some non-musicians just don't get it...PJ loves these songs...they are going to be kick ass live

    I do find it hard to imagine them doing Just Breathe/The End/Speed of Sound as anything other than an opener though but that's my opinion...I tend to skip those tunes in the car cause I wanna jam
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  • yosi wrote:
    Mortality wrote:
    yosi wrote:

    I think I do accept it for what it is. It just so happens that what it is doesn't happen to grab me all that much. And I'm not saying the band doesn't have the right to do that, etc. They can do whatever they want and that's fine, but I'm going to like somethings better than others, and I'm going to have an opinion on whatever it is they do (at least musically).

    Yeah its not like you have to enjoy it, but if you truly accept it for what it is then you wouldnt say it isnt a cohesive album. This is definitely their most cohesive album since yield and possibly of their career. I hated it after the first 2 listens. I was fighting it and was mad that the band went in this "cheesy" direction. Once I got over myself, I cant even look at individual songs anymore, its just Backspacer, and its amazing. A true album, as close to being a concept album you can get without actually being one.

    I don't agree with you, which is fine. But I actually think that Backspacer is their least cohesive album, with the possible exception of No Code. The only difference for me is that I like the songs on No Code more than Backspacer.

    I just think that there is no real connection between the first couple of songs and the second half of the album. I think that the ITW leftovers just don't really fit with the rock. The only thing that is semi-consistent is a level of cheesiness (in my opinion) on the second 2/3 of the album, but that hardly qualifies as cohesive. And I don't think this sounds anything like a concept album.

    But again, to each his/her own.



    the album is growing on me. i don't love it, but it's growing....and that has happened many times before. i think yield is the last album that i LOVE. albums since have some truly GREAt tunes, but there are a lot more songs i don't enjoy interspersed with those i love, nd once we hit s/t, well, overall, i like it....but not much love. i kinda feel the same here, thus far anyway. i definitely feel like there are 2 different albums happening here. i get a strong itw vibe, and then i get a synthy, ramones vibe....so yes...a bit jarring there. :P i also feel like there are some strong lyrics, and some, eh....lacking? idk. i am very interested to hear my husband's opinion. he's a fan, he's a musician, but he's not a lyrics guy, and he is not a ramones fan. he does tend to like the harder-hitting/driving songs, but he did appreciate itw, so i am curious since he does not focus on lyrics much, if he will enjoy it more.
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  • HeidiJam wrote:
    For all the people in disagreement i would like to know what you find creative on this album,"

    What is creative on this album?
    1. Listen to the rhythmic way the guitar lines stab in the verses and chorus of Got Some.
    2. Listen to the multiple imaginative melodys throughout Johnny Guitar, especially in the verses
    3. Look at the "Drug deal" concept that threads through the lyrics and titles of the first three songs
    4. Lyrics. Just Breathe, Amongst the Waves, Unthought Known, The End, and so on...
    5. Check out the odd timing in the intro and verses of the Fixer, moving to a standard timing in the chorus
    6. The swell of Unthought Known, building intensity strictly through dynamic, rather than myriad chord changes
    7. The experimentation with new instruments (orchestration) in Just Breathe and The End
    8. Finding places for the piano and organ to become integral instruments to the overall sound

    I could go on, but in the end, it's really kind of silly to be trying to define a work's "creativity." It's not exactly a concept that can be quantified. I think the album's detractors are simply struggling with the fact that the band is doing some things that they don't like. And that's OK.

    But soloing isn't the only way to be creative. Sometimes the editing process, and the very act of applying a sense of structure to a piece of art, becomes a vital part of the work's creativity. This album does have a strong structure to it, keeping the parts short and concise. So when Mike does let it rip, like on Supersonic or Amongst the Waves, it has maximum impact. To me, that's an effective application of boundaries. And that in itself is a creative decision. It may not be one that you like, but it's a mistake to call it "un-creative."

    I also think that "inaccessibility" is often confused with "creativity." For something to be creative, it doesn't have to be a demanding listen. A song like "Blackbird" is extremely creative, but it has a melody and chord structure that are easy for the mind to follow - accessible. Some would call it "poppy," but in a way that's what that word means... PJ has a batch of songs here that are structured and accessible - and very creative.
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  • Mortality wrote:
    What?? Yeah I BASHED Riot Act because I said what the 2 best songs were. I love Riot Act.

    I wasn't talking about you, dude. I was adding my comment in addition to yours. Sorry to make you think I was talking about you.
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  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    So i am a non-musician now because our opinions differ??? And i stand by what i said this is not a creative album, it may have some unique parts, but overall if you played me ten thru riot act and then put this in, it sounds like a huge step back in musical creativity. It sounds like they are trying to be someone they are not,
  • swardsward Posts: 586
    HeidiJam wrote:
    For all the people in disagreement i would like to know what you find creative on this album,"

    What is creative on this album?
    1. Listen to the rhythmic way the guitar lines stab in the verses and chorus of Got Some.
    2. Listen to the multiple imaginative melodys throughout Johnny Guitar, especially in the verses
    3. Look at the "Drug deal" concept that threads through the lyrics and titles of the first three songs
    4. Lyrics. Just Breathe, Amongst the Waves, Unthought Known, The End, and so on...
    5. Check out the odd timing in the intro and verses of the Fixer, moving to a standard timing in the chorus
    6. The swell of Unthought Known, building intensity strictly through dynamic, rather than myriad chord changes
    7. The experimentation with new instruments (orchestration) in Just Breathe and The End
    8. Finding places for the piano and organ to become integral instruments to the overall sound

    I could go on, but in the end, it's really kind of silly to be trying to define a work's "creativity." It's not exactly a concept that can be quantified. I think the album's detractors are simply struggling with the fact that the band is doing some things that they don't like. And that's OK.

    But soloing isn't the only way to be creative. Sometimes the editing process, and the very act of applying a sense of structure to a piece of art, becomes a vital part of the work's creativity. This album does have a strong structure to it, keeping the parts short and concise. So when Mike does let it rip, like on Supersonic or Amongst the Waves, it has maximum impact. To me, that's an effective application of boundaries. And that in itself is a creative decision. It may not be one that you like, but it's a mistake to call it "un-creative."

    I also think that "inaccessibility" is often confused with "creativity." For something to be creative, it doesn't have to be a demanding listen. A song like "Blackbird" is extremely creative, but it has a melody and chord structure that are easy for the mind to follow - accessible. Some would call it "poppy," but in a way that's what that word means... PJ has a batch of songs here that are structured and accessible - and very creative.


    All awesome points. The reality is, for me anyway, it has been awhile since I had a batch of songs from Pearl Jam that I love to sing along with. That said, I love the last few albums on many different levels and they all suit various moods..but with Backspacer, I've found myself singing the songs in my head on my commute, to belting them out when I pop it on my Ipod dock at home. I have been craving some sing alongs for some time now..and I got em! So I'm happy. Can't really judge someone's opinion..as it is just that..but I certainly don't agree that this album isn't anything but great.
  • HeidiJam wrote:
    So i am a non-musician now because our opinions differ??? And i stand by what i said this is not a creative album, it may have some unique parts, but overall if you played me ten thru riot act and then put this in, it sounds like a huge step back in musical creativity. It sounds like they are trying to be someone they are not,

    I understand bashing Backspacer as it's gonna take a while to sink in. But the last album was pretty much Pearl Jam sounding as Pearl Jam as it is possible to sound.
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  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    Na, i think self titled was pearl jam trying to hard to sound like pearl jam, they were forcing themselves to sound like that.
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