Did Jesus exist?

musicismylife78

Interesting book. I also saw The Root of All Evil, a documentary by Richard Dawkins, who authored The God Delusion. As well as watching The Man who didnt exist, which proposes that Jesus never existed at all.

Relates to my thread a few weeks back about religion.

Is their any evidence of Jesus and the individuals in the Bible existing?

81

Jesus lives right around the corner from me. Cuts my yard once a week.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Two thousand years from now, people might debate whether a certain tosspot zoologist-turned celebrity anti-God polemicist was just an Oxbridge-constructed psy-op hologram.


Fuck it. I'll start debating the motion now.

Lizard

there's too many big words up there...............i am lost! :oops:

j-bug

when i was younger and hung out with stoned hippies i had a really intresting conversation with a homeless drunk guy.he told me that Jesus was a pagan witch who smoked opium hence the ability to transform loafs of bread,water etc.

the thing is the bible was written 200 odd years after the guy known as Jesus died.its a great story,if it gives you direction,brilliant.but its still only a story.

libragirl

This is one of those MT type of threads. I believe he exists..I know, silly me! :P

know1

If you're asking about Jesus in the past tense, then you obviously have your mind made up.

I believe he exists.

iluvcats

know1 wrote:

If you're asking about Jesus in the past tense, then you obviously have your mind made up.

I believe he exists.

I second that

theoceansmademe

I believe he did, but no way was he the son of god.

Just some charismatic dude who has duped millions of people.

It's evolution baby!

musicismylife78

so for all of those who believe he exists or did exist, can you maybe elaborate, and say something beyond, "yes I believe he exists"?

What evidence beyond the bible exists to suggest he was a real individual?

What evidence shows he existed at one time? What evidece exists to show Joseph or mary or Moses or any of those people existed?

My point is, Richard Dawkins and the documentary, "the man who never existed" suggest, just what i am sort of getting at. They say, that there is no evidence at ALL to suggest jesus or anyone else in the bible existed.

Flagg

musicismylife78 wrote:

so for all of those who believe he exists or did exist, can you maybe elaborate, and say something beyond, "yes I believe he exists"?

What evidence beyond the bible exists to suggest he was a real individual?

What evidence shows he existed at one time? What evidece exists to show Joseph or mary or Moses or any of those people existed?

My point is, Richard Dawkins and the documentary, "the man who never existed" suggest, just what i am sort of getting at. They say, that there is no evidence at ALL to suggest jesus or anyone else in the bible existed.

But Christianity is based on faith is it not? And isn't faith when you believe in something without evidence?

I am not going to get into a religious debate or discuss my beliefs or my non-beliefs. I think that kind of stuff is private.

But, just sicking to a historical (non-Biblical) evidence of Jesus:

Jesus is mentioned in twice in The Jewish Antiquities by the Jewish historian Josephus in the 2nd half of the 1st century AD - but there is lots of controversy about whether the text was altered after it was written to inlclude Jesus.

The Annals of Tacitus (a Roman historian) mentions a man named 'Chistos' who was the founder of the of a 'party called Christians' and who was put to death death during the reign of Tiberius. But the annals were published between 115 and 117 AD and not referred to again until sometime in the 15th century when there was only one copy of it left and that copy was printed 600 years after Tacitus died. So is that really direct evidence? Also, Tacitus refers to him as 'Christos' which is a title not his given name, he also calls Pilate a 'procurator' - Pilate was in fact a prefect. Tacitus did have access to Imperial Roman records. Roman records would not have referred to Jesus as 'Christ'. So, Tacitus may have just been repeating what contemporary Chistians told him.

Suetonius wrote Lives of the Caesars around 120 AD. He mentions that Cladius expelled the Jews from Rome because the 'constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus.' Cladius expelled the Jews from Rome in 55 AD. This is often sited as evidence of Jesus, but Chrestus was actually a common name in Rome, not a mispelling of Christus. Also, the Bible never mentions Jesus going to Rome and instigating anyone, and he was dead by 55 AD.

Thallus - In a lost work referred to by Julius Africanus in the third century, the pagan writer Thallus reportedly claimed that Jesus's death was accompanied by an earthquake and darkness. However, the original text is lost, so we can confirm neither the contents of the text or its date. It is possible that Thallus was just repeating what was told to him by Christians, or that the passage which Africanus cites is a later interpolation. Outside of the New Testament, no other references to earthquakes or unusual darkness occur in the contemporary literature.

Pliny the Younger is a popular one. He corresponded often with the Emperor Trajan and mentioned Christians but that is only evidence of Christians existing in the 2nd century, not Jesus.

There really is no direct historical evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ outside of the New Testament, some contemporary Gnostic works, and rejected books of the New Testament.

arq

No he didn't exist. All the nonblibical references of jesus where inserted by christians in the following centuries, if you have the chance to read the texts where supposedly Jesus is mentioned you can notice the broke structure of the narrative. But who I'm to trust the scientist and historians?

Ledbetterman10

He had to at least exist. That's a pretty tall tale to start from scratch. He has to at least exist before they could even start a story like he's the son of god. you can't just say 30 years after his death that "Oh yeah, that Christ dude who lived down the road, he was God. Spread the word."

kenny olav

There's no real evidence that he existed even as just a man, but there is evidence of many other myths similar to the Jesus myth that existed before or around the time Jesus was said to live. Some things in the Bible are true, no doubt, and many of the stories about Jesus are probably based on true stories, but no historian has been able to verify the complete story of Jesus. The stories about Jesus in the four gospels also don't match each other 100%, so even the gospels are a poor source of information for who this man may have been.

musicismylife78

one of the more bizarre things about the jesus story, is that he disappeared, for many years.

What was he doing during those years? Where was he?

musicismylife78

Flagg wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

so for all of those who believe he exists or did exist, can you maybe elaborate, and say something beyond, "yes I believe he exists"?

What evidence beyond the bible exists to suggest he was a real individual?

What evidence shows he existed at one time? What evidece exists to show Joseph or mary or Moses or any of those people existed?

My point is, Richard Dawkins and the documentary, "the man who never existed" suggest, just what i am sort of getting at. They say, that there is no evidence at ALL to suggest jesus or anyone else in the bible existed.

But Christianity is based on faith is it not? And isn't faith when you believe in something without evidence?

I am not going to get into a religious debate or discuss my beliefs or my non-beliefs. I think that kind of stuff is private.

But, just sicking to a historical (non-Biblical) evidence of Jesus:

Jesus is mentioned in twice in The Jewish Antiquities by the Jewish historian Josephus in the 2nd half of the 1st century AD - but there is lots of controversy about whether the text was altered after it was written to inlclude Jesus.

The Annals of Tacitus (a Roman historian) mentions a man named 'Chistos' who was the founder of the of a 'party called Christians' and who was put to death death during the reign of Tiberius. But the annals were published between 115 and 117 AD and not referred to again until sometime in the 15th century when there was only one copy of it left and that copy was printed 600 years after Tacitus died. So is that really direct evidence? Also, Tacitus refers to him as 'Christos' which is a title not his given name, he also calls Pilate a 'procurator' - Pilate was in fact a prefect. Tacitus did have access to Imperial Roman records. Roman records would not have referred to Jesus as 'Christ'. So, Tacitus may have just been repeating what contemporary Chistians told him.

Suetonius wrote Lives of the Caesars around 120 AD. He mentions that Cladius expelled the Jews from Rome because the 'constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus.' Cladius expelled the Jews from Rome in 55 AD. This is often sited as evidence of Jesus, but Chrestus was actually a common name in Rome, not a mispelling of Christus. Also, the Bible never mentions Jesus going to Rome and instigating anyone, and he was dead by 55 AD.

Thallus - In a lost work referred to by Julius Africanus in the third century, the pagan writer Thallus reportedly claimed that Jesus's death was accompanied by an earthquake and darkness. However, the original text is lost, so we can confirm neither the contents of the text or its date. It is possible that Thallus was just repeating what was told to him by Christians, or that the passage which Africanus cites is a later interpolation. Outside of the New Testament, no other references to earthquakes or unusual darkness occur in the contemporary literature.

Pliny the Younger is a popular one. He corresponded often with the Emperor Trajan and mentioned Christians but that is only evidence of Christians existing in the 2nd century, not Jesus.

There really is no direct historical evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ outside of the New Testament, some contemporary Gnostic works, and rejected books of the New Testament.

For me, though, on a historical level, as a person who is facinated and interested in history, I just find this interesting.

Jesus is without question probably one of the most influential and important people ever. Even if he didnt exist and the whole christian narrative of his life is a lie, my statement I just made still stands true.

So I find it interesting on that level. One of the most influential individuals ever, and he may or may not even exist, and his followers, some who posted on this thread, tend to not even want to discuss why they believe in his existence.

That to me is facinating and interesting

musicismylife78

faith and religion are facinating as well. That richard dawkins book lays stuff out very well. Religion is a bizaare thing. I mean, if you were to talk about a man who was 40 feet tall and had breath of fire and could fly, and you said to me, "he existed in our early times, in the stone age". I and most others would probably say "no way" or we would say its probably unlikely, but we would have no proof either way.

With religion its different. people make claims, and you are supposed to respect those claims, because its based on religion and faith. To go after people based on their claims and to say "I find it hard to believe a man walked on water and fed thousands with a single loaf of bread and a couple fish", and alot of times religious people would say you were being intolerant to their beliefs.

Whatever your view on religion, Dawkins book was thought provoking and I think thats what he wanted

vedder_soup

81

musicismylife78 wrote:

one of the more bizarre things about the jesus story, is that he disappeared, for many years.

What was he doing during those years? Where was he?

i heard he was hanging out in a van up in alasaka.....

musicismylife78

81 wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

one of the more bizarre things about the jesus story, is that he disappeared, for many years.

What was he doing during those years? Where was he?

i heard he was hanging out in a van up in alasaka.....

come on. Seriously. Again, one of the most important people ever, and no one knows if he existed. And a huge part of his life is not accounted for.

These are the points of this post.

Kilgore_Trout

musicismylife78 wrote:

one of the more bizarre things about the jesus story, is that he disappeared, for many years.

What was he doing during those years? Where was he?

he was a teenage boy... teenage boys furiously masturbate for hours at a time daily... not in keeping with the bibles ideal jesus... i like the ommission... adds to the mystery... gives jesus a james dean "cool"

and the scene with the traders in the temple?!? thats my kind of messiah!

the bible is definitely amongst my favorite books... i would be embarrassed to say that in general cause people would assume im a religious fanatic... but it really is a great collection of stories... and the inspiration for stories centuries after... i wish we had something that real to believe in in todays culture... i mean, think about it - all those stories were relatively contemporary at one point in time

belief is a luxury i dont allow myself... i envy those that have it

i think jesus existed in a way similar to ghandi... their lives were probably very similar... thats all i will say and all i can believe

Flagg

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

He had to at least exist. That's a pretty tall tale to start from scratch. He has to at least exist before they could even start a story like he's the son of god. you can't just say 30 years after his death that "Oh yeah, that Christ dude who lived down the road, he was God. Spread the word."

yeah and I would add that to my post above. Even with no non-Biblical evidence of his existence, isn't it strange that a whole the most dominant religion in history is based on a person who may have never existed?
I think the man existed. Whether or not he was the son of God is for others to argue.

Also, we have no proof that aliens exist but most people think that is possible so who the hell knows.