About poster sales on The Porch

CJMST3K

Is selling posters for above the purchase price allowed by Ten Club?

Doesn't the scalping or reselling for profit the posters create even higher demand, which shuts out more people from getting the posters legitimately at the shows?

I guess I just don't see how this is different from taking tickets and scalping them for profit too.

Thoughts?

potnik

Then I assume under your question it would also include Vinyl?

Edit* to answer your question, not sure what their policy is, personally it doesn't affect me. If I don't get the poster at the show it wasn't meant to be I guess. Though I see your point.

YieldToNothing

if you don't see how its different, i don't know what to tell you.

let's say i bough a missoula '98 in 2003 for $400 and i need some money now so i offer to sell it for $300.

you're right, totally not different than scalping tickets.

decides2dream

unless a poster is sold thru 10c with the stipulation of no resale, which doesn't even encompass price (and even then, difficult to *prove*...did someone get it thru a 10c sale, had an extra, bought at a show, thru a trade, etc) .....it doesn't make a difference. the ONLY price policy 10c has in place is in regards to 10c tickets, no resale above face. so whether posters, vinyl, tshirts, stickers...whatever....just like ANY other collectible in existance, it's all supply and demand. art has always been one of those commodities quite often sold and resold for greater and greater profit.

CJMST3K

YieldToNothing wrote:

if you don't see how its different, i don't know what to tell you.

let's say i bough a missoula '98 in 2003 for $400 and i need some money now so i offer to sell it for $300.

you're right, totally not different than scalping tickets.

You bought the poster for $400? Wow, that's outrageous.

I'm saying that if people are buying these posters because they want to resell or flip them for a profit, that is similar to people buying tickets because the want to resell or flip them for a profit.

Your scenario is more similar to a ticket "broker" buying EV tickets for $75 then selling them on craigslist for $45 because tickets were steadily released and they needed money now (before the shows occur).

Wouldn't you agree?

I'm open for a dialog on this. I'd like to hear all points of view.

Plankton

A poster will gain value over time, so reselling at a higher price is fine.

Reselling a ticket is charging more for something of the same value: same date, same show etc. People do pay more because it's still 'worth' the money to them, but that's not what we're talking about.

CJMST3K

decides2dream wrote:

art has always been one of those commodities quite often sold and resold for greater and greater profit.

Oh, I know this part. I own a fine art gallery.

You do make a good point. I don't know if the posters sold at the show are "not for resale", as the TC sale posters are. I suppose this would be similar to TM tickets and TC tickets, right?

PJStatTracker

As I see it the difference is that posters and other collectibles (vinyl, shirts, water bottles, etc.) are different because their value appreciates with time (we hope). Concert tickets are for a one time event, and then are essentially worthless. So the only time you are buying and reselling tickets is to make a quick buck...

there is obviously a lot of flipping of posters and other stuff, but that's a different discussion, I think.

YieldToNothing

my scenario isn't similar to any sort of broker. some of these posters are rare and cost a lot of money and/or effort to acquire. its not the same as clicking to buy a ticket.

collectors sometimes needs money for life or for other items so they have to let go of pieces in their collection.

why should they let these things go for a loss?

and i don't have a missoula '98 but i have spent $500 on a poster before. i'm glad you think its outrageous.

CJMST3K

Plankton wrote:

A poster will gain value over time, so reselling at a higher price is fine.

Reselling a ticket is charging more for something of the same value: same date, same show etc. People do pay more because it's still 'worth' the money to them, but that's not what we're talking about.

But, a ticket will gain value too. Borgata comes to mind.

Same date, same show = Same paper, same ink.

Correct? Incorrect?

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

YieldToNothing wrote:

if you don't see how its different, i don't know what to tell you.

let's say i bough a missoula '98 in 2003 for $400 and i need some money now so i offer to sell it for $300.

you're right, totally not different than scalping tickets.

You bought the poster for $400? Wow, that's outrageous.

I'm saying that if people are buying these posters because they want to resell or flip them for a profit, that is similar to people buying tickets because the want to resell or flip them for a profit.

Your scenario is more similar to a ticket "broker" buying EV tickets for $75 then selling them on craigslist for $45 because tickets were steadily released and they needed money now (before the shows occur).

Wouldn't you agree?

I'm open for a dialog on this. I'd like to hear all points of view.

do you truly believe that MOST purchasers of posters at shows ARE doing so for PROFIT? i am sure there are....but most...i think not. i also wonder just exactly how much one can expect of 10c or any organization to curb this. even the one poster per person/bracelet system...still allows people to buy and resell. i personally see no way around that, and nor do i believe there should be further restrictions in place.

do you not believe that art should be bought and sold for profit? i mean, i agree overall...i buy art because i want and appreciate it. however, art has always been sold and resold.....van gogh's work a perfect example. died penniless, never selling a painting of his own, and after his death...sold and resold for millions. and so it goes...

i just cannot imagine 10c 'policing' the process to such a degree, and nor do i believe it would be too successful. i like the one poster limit per person, especially if it is actually enforced.....and that still allows for aftermarket sales if one desires. i mean, not everyone who resells purchases with that intent. some people get hard up, some people just move beyond collecting anymore....some just simply decide, in time, they rather have the cash. it also allows people who want said work the opportunity to buy it, if they are willing to pay the price set by the seller. i think it's perfectly acceptible. i would rather it didn't clutter the porch tho, a forum for trading and sales, of anything pj related....would be better imo.

DewieCox

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

art has always been one of those commodities quite often sold and resold for greater and greater profit.

Oh, I know this part. I own a fine art gallery.

You do make a good point. I don't know if the posters sold at the show are "not for resale", as the TC sale posters are. I suppose this would be similar to TM tickets and TC tickets, right?

You can resale 10c sold posters. The few for sale right now don't have any stipulations.

decides2dream

Eduardo Veduardo. wrote:

As I see it the difference is that posters and other collectibles (vinyl, shirts, water bottles, etc.) are different because their value appreciates with time (we hope). Concert tickets are for a one time event, and then are essentially worthless. So the only time you are buying and reselling tickets is to make a quick buck...

there is obviously a lot of flipping of posters and other stuff, but that's a different discussion, I think.

exactly.



imo it comes down to this:
if you believe posters should never be sold above cost...well then, you should believe that for ANYthing of value....whether a poster, a vinyl, a beanie baby, a miro painting, an auto, a vintage radio, etc, etc. honestly, i am continually amused by how *upset* some people get over poster flipping and the like. you own something, you want to sell it, you find a buyer willing to pay your price, everyone is happy. if you ask to much and no one is willing to pay, there it is. i realize there are those who purchase with the sole intent of resale, but again....how is that anyone else's business? people do so with baseball cards and just about anything. now if you're against ALL of that, well more power to ya....don't get involved in such, but really...it will never end. and i also don't think it should. i missed out buying posters at shows i've attended - mostly b/c i wasn't interested in em at the time - if it weren't for the secondary market, i'd not have em now. maybe that would be a good thing ....hahaha...but i did want em, and i got em, and it completes my collection and makes me happy.

CJMST3K

YieldToNothing wrote:

my scenario isn't similar to any sort of broker. some of these posters are rare and cost a lot of money and/or effort to acquire. its not the same as clicking to buy a ticket.

collectors sometimes needs money for life or for other items so they have to let go of pieces in their collection.

why should they let these things go for a loss?

and i don't have a missoula '98 but i have spent $500 on a poster before. i'm glad you think its outrageous.

Some tickets are rare and cost a lot of money and effort to acquire. I paid about $350 for a Borgata ticket, and it took me a while to find it.

...I just think there are easy comparisons to both the ticket-reselling market and poster reselling market. It also causes increased demand for both products, which then feeds into the profiteering for both products.


But, after reading decides2dream's comment that the poster sales at the venues don't have the same rules as the Ten Club poster sale rules, that is a good point. I still think though that The Porch being open market for Ten Club and venue posters increases the demand, making it that much harder to acquire a poster at a venue or from TC to begin with... because of the flippers.

PJStatTracker

CJMST3K wrote:

But, a ticket will gain value too. Borgata comes to mind.

Same date, same show = Same paper, same ink.

Correct? Incorrect?

I would say that the vast majority of tickets are worth far, far less than the amount paid for them after the event.

There are special circumstances - I believe old Michael Jackson tickets are selling quite well - but for the most part, a ticket that cost $100 on the day of the event, would be worth less than $5 the next day, and would probably never regain face value...

decides2dream

DewieCox wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

art has always been one of those commodities quite often sold and resold for greater and greater profit.

Oh, I know this part. I own a fine art gallery.

You do make a good point. I don't know if the posters sold at the show are "not for resale", as the TC sale posters are. I suppose this would be similar to TM tickets and TC tickets, right?

You can resale 10c sold posters. The few for sale right now don't have any stipulations.

exactly.
there have been very few posters sold direct thru 10c with the stipulation of 'not for resale'...and even then, no identifiying markrs, nor any outlined penalties. we all are well aware, and it is clearly outlined, that tix for shows purchased thru 10c are NOT for resale above face value or you risk your membership. this has never been said for any poster sale, b/c again, w/o identifying marks on the poster....there is no way to follow thru. besides, which, whether at a show, thru bks site, thru 10c's site....i can only think of a very few that this stipulation was even made.



cjm...i know you own a gallery, thus why i find it difficult to believe that you have difficulty with the idea of it being ok to resell posters.

CJMST3K

decides2dream wrote:

you own something, you want to sell it, you find a buyer willing to pay your price, everyone is happy.

I agree with an open market in general. I'm a capitalist.

I'm just trying to find how come your statement is accurate for item A (EG: posters), but not for item B (EG: TM tickets). Wouldn't they naturally follow that same logic?

PJStatTracker

CJMST3K wrote:

I still think though that The Porch being open market for Ten Club and venue posters increases the demand, making it that much harder to acquire a poster at a venue or from TC to begin with... because of the flippers.

I think the side effect of what you're talking about here is that they are now printing an incredibly large number of posters to meet demand. The 2008 posters were all relatively easy to get, maybe MSG aside, but because of the increased print run several of these posters haven't gained much, if any, value, and none of them will ever be rare or valued posters. I personally feel this is a shame, but the trade off is that everyone gets a poster who wants one, and I can't really argue with that...

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

YieldToNothing wrote:

my scenario isn't similar to any sort of broker. some of these posters are rare and cost a lot of money and/or effort to acquire. its not the same as clicking to buy a ticket.

collectors sometimes needs money for life or for other items so they have to let go of pieces in their collection.

why should they let these things go for a loss?

and i don't have a missoula '98 but i have spent $500 on a poster before. i'm glad you think its outrageous.

Some tickets are rare and cost a lot of money and effort to acquire. I paid about $350 for a Borgata ticket, and it took me a while to find it.

...I just think there are easy comparisons to both the ticket-reselling market and poster reselling market. It also causes increased demand for both products, which then feeds into the profiteering for both products.


But, after reading decides2dream's comment that the poster sales at the venues don't have the same rules as the Ten Club poster sale rules, that is a good point. I still think though that The Porch being open market for Ten Club and venue posters increases the demand, making it that much harder to acquire a poster at a venue or from TC to begin with... because of the flippers.

even posters sold thru 10c do NOT have any stipulations in regards to resale, only once or twice was there ever any made...and again.....no penalties outlined, b/c honestly, there would be no way for them to determine. personally, i don't think 10c cares all that much about the aftermarket for posters, nor do i think they should.

10c tix, however, is definitely a different story. while agree, whether selling a poster or ticket for profit, it's one and the same....10c/pj has CHOSEN to make 10c reslae for profit verboten, and it is their right, and also easier to do. a ticket is only available for sale, and useful, for a finite period of time. besides which, outside of 10c tix...there are other ways of procuring tix.

i do not think using this site increases demand, at all, for posters. i think ebay and expressobeans both do a far better job. as you well know, art is desirable....if someone desires it, they will find it. having it here doesn't increase that, at most, it simply offers another avenue for sale/trade for those inclined.

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

you own something, you want to sell it, you find a buyer willing to pay your price, everyone is happy.

I agree with an open market in general. I'm a capitalist.

I'm just trying to find how come your statement is accurate for item A (EG: posters), but not for item B (EG: TM tickets). Wouldn't they naturally follow that same logic?

see my post above.
they DO follow the same logic. the ONLY difference is that 10c/pj CHOOSE to make the tix an issue but not any other items. and most specifically, they make 10c tix the biggest issue, tho sure, they do take down all tix sclaping posts. it's all what they personally choose to deem important, and given that this is their website, it's a-ok in my book for them to pick and choose what issues they deem important and enforceable. personally, i wish they would remove ALL sale threads from this board for ANYthing....but it ain't my board...so it ain't my call.

CJMST3K

decides2dream wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

you own something, you want to sell it, you find a buyer willing to pay your price, everyone is happy.

I agree with an open market in general. I'm a capitalist.

I'm just trying to find how come your statement is accurate for item A (EG: posters), but not for item B (EG: TM tickets). Wouldn't they naturally follow that same logic?

see my post above.
they DO follow the same logic. the ONLY difference is that 10c/pj CHOOSE to make the tix an issue but not any other items. and most specifically, they make 10c tix the biggest issue, tho sure, they do take down all tix sclaping posts. it's all what they personally choose to deem important, and given that this is their website, it's a-ok in my book for them to pick and choose what issues they deem important and enforceable. personally, i wish they would remove ALL sale threads from this board for ANYthing....but it ain't my board...so it ain't my call.

Gotcha. I agree.

I see selling PJ posters for profit equal to selling PJ tickets for profit (from TM).

LotteryWinner

This goes for reselling above value.

If 10c or anyone else for that matter was concerned about posters they would limit the amount someone could purchase, such as they did with the EV Hatch Show Print on night two. You could only buy 1 the second night because they sold out so quickly the first night.

10c does this with tickets by limiting all purchases to 2 tickets per member. By only allowing 2 tickets per member they limit the number of tickets out there that could be resold. As far as I can tell the 10c does not mind reselling at face value, since they openly allow postings on here allowing someone to sell their extra at face.

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

I agree with an open market in general. I'm a capitalist.

I'm just trying to find how come your statement is accurate for item A (EG: posters), but not for item B (EG: TM tickets). Wouldn't they naturally follow that same logic?

see my post above.
they DO follow the same logic. the ONLY difference is that 10c/pj CHOOSE to make the tix an issue but not any other items. and most specifically, they make 10c tix the biggest issue, tho sure, they do take down all tix sclaping posts. it's all what they personally choose to deem important, and given that this is their website, it's a-ok in my book for them to pick and choose what issues they deem important and enforceable. personally, i wish they would remove ALL sale threads from this board for ANYthing....but it ain't my board...so it ain't my call.

Gotcha. I agree.

I see selling PJ posters for profit equal to selling PJ tickets for profit (from TM).

they are......and as a capitalist and believer in the free market....i guess you are ok with both?
b/c i could make the comparison you did above for just about ANYthing that has an aftermarket, resale for profit.



however, i also support 10c/pj's right to dictate what is and what isn't acceptible on their website...whether post content, resales, whatever....as this is their privately hosted space, their call to make. so for them it's simply - tix resale for profit not ok, anything else is a-ok.



also, of course my own assumption.,...but i think pj is more interested in keeping the experience of their live shows available/affordable for more fans - thus why they don't condone selling tix above cost.....whereas i would imagine they just don't much care about 'things' being as available/affordable.


it's all about the music, dude...;)

dimitrispearljam

its all easy,,10c should put for sale all the posters from the 1 day for sale in goods,,and everybody can buy,,and in the end,,in the concert,noone will buy it for re-sale exept the people who really want it to have it,,lets say 50$,and in the concert woulb be 10$ cheaper,for the people who orriginally went there,,

iamrockmusic

I don't think they should ban For Sale threads, as I myself recently had one up on The Porch. However, I did like that over on expressobeans.com, they had a forum specifically for sale/trade items. I think it would be a great idea for 10C to create a separate forum here for sale and trade stuff. Whether it's posters, vinyl, shirts, CDs, memorabilia of any kind, as long as it's PJ-related. Think of how much easier it would be to sift through and get to the good info on The Porch if all the for sale/trade posts were in a separate spot. It would make it easier for those that wanted to buy/sell/trade to find what they were looking for by giving a specific marketplace. And it would keep The Porch to just things news-related.

I personally felt somewhat guilty bumping my own post on The Porch for my eBay auctions, only because I knew there were loads of people on the board that did not care what I was selling and probably got sick of seeing my post each day. At the same time, I was trying to sell PJ items and knew that a PJ audience was my best bet, so it was a necessary evil, IMO. But if I had had a separate forum and knew that the only people there were specifically there looking for items to buy/sell/trade, well, the guilt factor would disappear and it would also serve the needs of the intended audience.

Lastly, tickets are something that are a perk of being a paid 10C member, whereas only the posters that are on sale through 10C on the site are members-only. The ones bought at shows, etc are not for members only, are they? Can't anyone that has a ticket to the show just buy a poster if they want to without being a 10C member? If so, I definitely see the difference in reselling 10C tickets for profit vs. reselling open market purchased posters for profit.

CJMST3K

decides2dream wrote:

they are......and as a capitalist and believer in the free market....i guess you are ok with both?

In general, I'm a free market capitalist. Not so much with tickets. It increases demand, which negatively affects those of us trying to buy those tickets. Not much of an opportunity to actually get the tickets.

Posters, I'm not a fan of them being allowed to be flipped, again because it negatively affects those of us trying to buy those posters, even when they're originally put on sale.

When a band is selling for a relatively low price tickets/posters/etc with the clear (or I believe implied) stipulation that the price is low so fans aren't ripped off, then I think we should respect their wishes and not participate in not buying items just to flip them.

A while ago they were selling PJ beach towels in the Goods section. At first I thought "I should buy it to resell it or trade it", but then my ethics kicked in, and I just let them sell to those who actually want the item. A few days before the EV show in Baltimore I saw Row CCC come up for sale on TM. I knew I could buy the tickets and sell them for a shit load of money, but I instead let them sell to others who (hopefully) wanted to just see the show and not flip them.

If PJ tickets/posters/vinyl/etc weren't so limited, then I wouldn't mind so much (just like in the art business) because everyone would have had ample time and opportunity to get them over a period of days, weeks or months at the original price. But posters sell out by the time the opening act is playing the first song. Tickets sell out within seconds... Having an open resale-for-profit policy only increases the demand, presumably making it worse.

CJMST3K

dimitrispearljam wrote:

its all easy,,10c should put for sale all the posters from the 1 day for sale in goods,,and everybody can buy,,and in the end,,in the concert,noone will buy it for re-sale exept the people who really want it to have it,,lets say 50$,and in the concert woulb be 10$ cheaper,for the people who orriginally went there,,

Yup! There you go.

It would mean a new definition for "limited edition". Everyone who wants one can get one, yet there is a limit at the end of it.

I don't know why they don't do this with posters, vinyl, etc. Tickets are another thing because you can't make a venue bigger.

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

they are......and as a capitalist and believer in the free market....i guess you are ok with both?

In general, I'm a free market capitalist. Not so much with tickets. It increases demand, which negatively affects those of us trying to buy those tickets. Not much of an opportunity to actually get the tickets.

Posters, I'm not a fan of them being allowed to be flipped, again because it negatively affects those of us trying to buy those posters, even when they're originally put on sale.

When a band is selling for a relatively low price tickets/posters/etc with the clear (or I believe implied) stipulation that the price is low so fans aren't ripped off, then I think we should respect their wishes and not participate in not buying items just to flip them.

A while ago they were selling PJ beach towels in the Goods section. At first I thought "I should buy it to resell it or trade it", but then my ethics kicked in, and I just let them sell to those who actually want the item. A few days before the EV show in Baltimore I saw Row CCC come up for sale on TM. I knew I could buy the tickets and sell them for a shit load of money, but I instead let them sell to others who (hopefully) wanted to just see the show and not flip them.

If PJ tickets/posters/vinyl/etc weren't so limited, then I wouldn't mind so much (just like in the art business) because everyone would have had ample time and opportunity to get them over a period of days, weeks or months at the original price. But posters sell out by the time the opening act is playing the first song. Tickets sell out within seconds... Having an open resale-for-profit policy only increases the demand, presumably making it worse.

posters sell out LONG before that in the NY metro market.

i see your points, and i agree...to a certain extent. however, on the other hand, that is life. things ARE limited, and so it goes.


i've never personally gone and bought anything with the sole intent of reselling....but i have resold a great many things, some for a good profit, others just to recoup some $$$, etc. again, and so it goes.

art, in particular, has always been a commodity that increases with value, and i do not have a problem with that. even now, unless posters were available for sale forever......years from now there still could be someone who wants a poster from right now, and may be willing to pay more for it. i think if someone has an item they no longer want, and they have a buyer willing to pay more for said item...it is a-ok to do so. buying/trading/flipping/collecting.....has always happened and will continue to do so.

PJStatTracker

CJMST3K wrote:

I see selling PJ posters for profit equal to selling PJ tickets for profit (from TM).

Do you feel that way about '98 posters? I agree with you about a poster bought yesterday...that it's basically the same thing, just turning it over for profit...like selling a Honolulu poster for $100 or whatever is a little much for me to take sometimes...

but I don't feel that way about their older posters. I think once the initial craziness has worn off, then the posters settle into what is their actual value, and with print runs of 300-400, those 98 posters I see as actually that valuable, and don't begrudge anyone for selling it at its value. In fact, I would think it was crazy for anyone to sell it for $8 or $10 (re: Frank Black)...

CJMST3K

Eduardo Veduardo. wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

I see selling PJ posters for profit equal to selling PJ tickets for profit (from TM).

Do you feel that way about '98 posters? I agree with you about a poster bought yesterday...that it's basically the same thing, just turning it over for profit...like selling a Honolulu poster for $100 or whatever is a little much for me to take sometimes...

but I don't feel that way about their older posters. I think once the initial craziness has worn off, then the posters settle into what is their actual value, and with print runs of 300-400, those 98 posters I see as actually that valuable, and don't begrudge anyone for selling it at its value. In fact, I would think it was crazy for anyone to sell it for $8 or $10 (re: Frank Black)...

I think that if people are given a chance to actually buy them at face value, then I wouldn't mind as much. Let's say they offer a poster and have enough at the venue to sell thru the first PJ song, then that would suffice, or if they sell them online for a few days, etc.

Basing it on the timeline is a little arbitrary, but I do agree that I don't feel too bad that older posters are going for more... it's just it would be nice to show up to a venue and have a reasonable expectation to buy a poster... but with the "market" influencing people to stock up on them, it affects the availability of them. Same with vinyl, or tickets, or whatever. It would just be nice to be able to buy something.

I'd LOVE for Vinyl, Posters, etc to be printed or available after the initial "sold out" time. This would depress the market, and make collecting more for the people that want the "art" and less for the flippers. I have an NYC 1998 poster that was given to me by PJ's merch person back then, who I used to work with. Now that print is valued at $230 http://www.expressobeans.com/public/detail.php/1573 ...but I would be just as happy if they printed more of them, which would only disrupt the flippers. If it were only worth $1 I would still want it.