Cap and Trade

WaveCameCrashin

http://www.heritage.org/Press/FactSheet/fs0034.cfm

Obama's cap and trade is nothing more than a huge tax hike on enerygy
This could cost the average family up to $3000.00 more a year to heat and cool your home.

We will also see more jobs being lost due to this

http://www.foe.org/flawed-climate-and-energy-bill-passes-house

RB112589

What's worse than all of that, if it can be, is government mandated control. Implementing an energy bill with no real alternative, unbelievable! And how about the delayed vote because not enough house members were on board for this, that is 'til preassure was applied by the house speaker, threatening the lack monetary sponsership to re-election campaigns. This goes to prove what's really on the table; money! Even Flow, baby...

ledvedderman

The cost of this will be about $150 a year. If you can afford a postage stamp a day, then you have no need to worry about this.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/sta ... st-about-/

WaveCameCrashin

Of course The EPA is going to say that. They're part of Obama's administration. Maybe not yours but $150 is a lot of money to some families

ledvedderman

prfctlefts wrote:

Of course The EPA is going to say that. They're part of Obama's administration. Maybe not yours but $150 is a lot of money to some families

Well, naturally the Heritage Foundation is going to say what they did. They are the opposition to it. However, I noticed you backed down from the $3000 a year and saying that $175 is a lot to some families.

Anon

$150 here, $175 there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.

VINNY GOOMBA

Well if prfctlefts is saying $3,000 and Ledvedderman is saying $150 it's probably a safe bet that the costs will be somewhere in the middle. I've heard both of these numbers thrown out quite a few times. Yes energy companies are going to get banged, but maybe only enough that it SHOULD only cost us $150 / year... But if that $3,000 number gets thrown around enough, then why wouldn't these companies raise their prices above costing us $12 / month, blame it on cap and trade, while keeping the profit? Let's not forget: these are "big, evil bad-guy, polluting energy companies," and they've just been given an excuse to raise their prices... don't expect them to do it for free.

cincybearcat

ledvedderman wrote:

The cost of this will be about $150 a year. If you can afford a postage stamp a day, then you have no need to worry about this.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/sta ... st-about-/

Unless of course you also want to keep your job. Some compaines will pay $500,000 or more a year on energy. Bye Bye jobs, hello Chinese workforce.

spearhead

OK, since prfctlefts has provided the right wing gop talking points for the class, I'll provide the other side.
prfctlefts will respond by saying that I am simply quoting a left wing liberal website, but I present the argument here so you can decide for yourself, and feel free to correct this argument if you can:



http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/02/death-energy-lie/

Media Outlet Refuses To Run Republican TV Ad Filled With Misrepresentations Of Clean Energy Bill
This afternoon, Roanoke television station WDBJ-TV, announced they will be refusing to air a National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) ad attacking freshman Rep. Tom Perriello (D-VA), citing factual inaccuracies. The NRCC had been planning to run television ads against Democratic members of Congress, like Perriello, who voted for the Waxman-Markey clean energy economy legislation that passed last week. After receiving information about the factual inaccuracies in the ad, the station pulled it from rotation.
For any objective observer, the the ad is pulled out of thin air. The ads erroneously state that the bill will “destroy jobs” and “cost middle-class families $1,800 a year.” According to a study by the Center for American Progress, clean energy economy legislation will create 1.7 million American jobs while simultaneously addressing climate change by capping carbon dioxide emissions. The $1,800 figure used by NRCC is also made of whole cloth. The Congressional Budget Office has scored the bill and found that by 2020, the annual cost would be about $175 per household — about a postage stamp a day. An EPA estimate of the bill found similar results, projecting the cost to be about $80 to $111 per a year.
Still refusing to accept reality, the Republican leadership is instructing its members to lie about the clean energy economy bill:
– Last week, Republican whip Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA) posted a message erroneously claiming that clean energy legislation will amount to “a national energy tax of up to $3,100 on all Americans.”
– Republican leader Rep. John Boehner (R-OH) posted on his website that the clean energy bill will cost “$3,100 a year,” then modified that number to “$3,000 per household per year.”
– Republican conference chair Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN), not to be outdone, claimed the clean energy bill would be “over $4,000 a year.”
All the numbers cited by Republicans are at least seventeen times the highest possible projection by the CBO and EPA.
Clearly, Republicans opposed to the clean energy bill seem willing to justify their opposition using outright falsehoods. But fortunately, at least some stations are not willing to propagate it.

WaveCameCrashin

For what it's worth I hope the republicans are wrong b/c who the hell wants to pay more for energy or loose more jobs.
Obama's cap and trade legislation is the exact same thing as Al Gore's BTU tax which was the centerpiece of Clinton's 93 tax program,but he replaced it with a $.5 gasoline tax.
But
Obama cant call it a tax because that would break his pledge to us. So he calls it cap and trade

If this bill passes it will be the largest Tax increase in the history of the United States. :x

spearhead

Obama is NOT perfect ... far from it.

He has not kept all of his promises ... he sounds like george bush when he tries to defend holding detainees indefinitely without trial, or when he fails to end DADT NOW, or when his DOJ files briefs tryng to keep dick cheney's admission to patrick fitzgerald that he broke valerie plame's cia cover from becoming public, or when he refuses to release photos of the torture this country committed under the bush adimnistration in our names, and other things too ... what a shock. He is a politician after all, and part of the same old tired two party system that has fucked this country for decades ... that said, I was glad to vote for him and I still fucking shudder to think how much worse it would have been had that maniac mccain and that idiot palin been elected.

Now you're telling me that he is RAISING TAXES ON POLLUTERS?

Pick your battles, man...that one ain't mine.

WaveCameCrashin

Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

They can forgive him for sighning an 800 billion stimulous bill within 24hrs of reciept complete with 8,500 earmarks without having read it.they can forgive his faux pas of criticizing AIG excecutives unbridled greed for taking the bonuses that he himself unknowingly approved and signed into law.

O yeah what about aplogizing to all of europe for our arrogance,dismissiveness,and derisiveness.You know the kind that kept England and France from speaking German and incidentially cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

You can currently forgive his closure of Gitmo because those who were released and got back into the fight against us haven't killed any of their relatives.

Unemployment continues to grow. Consumer confidence continues to decline. 401k plans continue to be half of what they were a year ago.The current Budget is 3x greater than it was 6mos ago.

Gasoline is going back up.

Obama supporters can forgive him for these things and more b/c
He's not Bush .
They haven't lost their jobs yet or haven't felt the impact of his taxes yet.

DriftingByTheStorm

Carbon taxes are nothing more than a precursor to a World Banking System and globalized currency scheme.

Countries that pay a VAT tax now (so i hear) are having their international shipping labels printed up with VAT conversion information that converts from the shippers local currency in to IMF Special Drawing Rights (SDRs).

This is on the same page with the publicly announced plans to increase the use of the once extremely limited SDRs in to a much more "consumer" type market.

Just like with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which went hand in glove with the creation of America's income tax, the creation and empowerment of a world monetary governing (and issuing?) authority will necessarily be done in parallel with a sister tax to help defraud of and redistribute from the peoples wealth.

Go ahead and laugh.
The president of Rothschild Inc. has already publicly written an article declaring that carbon credits could pave the way for a "sustainable new world order" and that he hoped these credits could "replace gold as the world reserve currency". [i can pull the link off my old computer if anyone asks. Guardian likes to not display that article in their search, for some reason]

soulsinging

prfctlefts wrote:

Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

Dude, when did he ever talk about a line item veto? That was struck down by the Supreme Court while CLINTON was in office. Nobody has talked about line item vetoes in a decade.

gimmesometruth27

prfctlefts wrote:

Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

They can forgive him for sighning an 800 billion stimulous bill within 24hrs of reciept complete with 8,500 earmarks without having read it.they can forgive his faux pas of criticizing AIG excecutives unbridled greed for taking the bonuses that he himself unknowingly approved and signed into law.

O yeah what about aplogizing to all of europe for our arrogance,dismissiveness,and derisiveness.You know the kind that kept England and France from speaking German and incidentially cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

You can currently forgive his closure of Gitmo because those who were released and got back into the fight against us haven't killed any of their relatives.

Unemployment continues to grow. Consumer confidence continues to decline. 401k plans continue to be half of what they were a year ago.The current Budget is 3x greater than it was 6mos ago.

Gasoline is going back up.

Obama supporters can forgive him for these things and more b/c
He's not Bush .
They haven't lost their jobs yet or haven't felt the impact of his taxes yet.

this post is really interesting to me. i just read this post nearly word for word at this link. it is the quote from Jerry from Chicago.

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/06/30/kra ... -is-wrong/

g under p

prfctlefts wrote:

Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

They can forgive him for sighning an 800 billion stimulous bill within 24hrs of reciept complete with 8,500 earmarks without having read it.they can forgive his faux pas of criticizing AIG excecutives unbridled greed for taking the bonuses that he himself unknowingly approved and signed into law.

O yeah what about aplogizing to all of europe for our arrogance,dismissiveness,and derisiveness.You know the kind that kept England and France from speaking German and incidentially cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

You can currently forgive his closure of Gitmo because those who were released and got back into the fight against us haven't killed any of their relatives.

Unemployment continues to grow. Consumer confidence continues to decline. 401k plans continue to be half of what they were a year ago.The current Budget is 3x greater than it was 6mos ago.

Gasoline is going back up.

Obama supporters can forgive him for these things and more b/c
He's not Bush .
They haven't lost their jobs yet or haven't felt the impact of his taxes yet.

Obama is just horrible right, maybe. He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

We've been in a tailspin EVER since.

Peace

spearhead

Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!

WaveCameCrashin

spearhead wrote:

Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!

so what who cares wher i hang out where the hell do you hang out when your not here O'yeah thats right you give your free time at the abortion clinic . How's that going for ya DeadHead

ledvedderman

prfctlefts wrote:

spearhead wrote:

Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!

so what who cares wher i hang out where the hell do you hang out when your not here O'yeah thats right you give your free time at the abortion clinic . How's that going for ya DeadHead

Please do one post without radical generalizations of people who you disagree with...just one. Just bring a little substance to the conversation and not just a hack for your views.

WaveCameCrashin

g under p wrote:

He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous

ledvedderman

prfctlefts wrote:

g under p wrote:

He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous

To blame Clinton for 9/11 is just as ridiculous. Truth is, they both dropped the ball. You're right Clinton could have got Bin Laden...but it had nothing to do with him getting a BJ.

Your ability to resolve to personal attacks and generalizations are amazing.