Cap and Trade

WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
edited July 2009 in A Moving Train
http://www.heritage.org/Press/FactSheet/fs0034.cfm

Obama's cap and trade is nothing more than a huge tax hike on enerygy
This could cost the average family up to $3000.00 more a year to heat and cool your home.

We will also see more jobs being lost due to this

http://www.foe.org/flawed-climate-and-energy-bill-passes-house
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • RB112589RB112589 Posts: 98
    What's worse than all of that, if it can be, is government mandated control. Implementing an energy bill with no real alternative, unbelievable! And how about the delayed vote because not enough house members were on board for this, that is 'til preassure was applied by the house speaker, threatening the lack monetary sponsership to re-election campaigns. This goes to prove what's really on the table; money! Even Flow, baby...
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    The cost of this will be about $150 a year. If you can afford a postage stamp a day, then you have no need to worry about this.

    http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/sta ... st-about-/
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    Of course The EPA is going to say that. They're part of Obama's administration. Maybe not yours but $150 is a lot of money to some families
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Of course The EPA is going to say that. They're part of Obama's administration. Maybe not yours but $150 is a lot of money to some families

    Well, naturally the Heritage Foundation is going to say what they did. They are the opposition to it. However, I noticed you backed down from the $3000 a year and saying that $175 is a lot to some families.
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    $150 here, $175 there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Well if prfctlefts is saying $3,000 and Ledvedderman is saying $150 it's probably a safe bet that the costs will be somewhere in the middle. I've heard both of these numbers thrown out quite a few times. Yes energy companies are going to get banged, but maybe only enough that it SHOULD only cost us $150 / year... But if that $3,000 number gets thrown around enough, then why wouldn't these companies raise their prices above costing us $12 / month, blame it on cap and trade, while keeping the profit? Let's not forget: these are "big, evil bad-guy, polluting energy companies," and they've just been given an excuse to raise their prices... don't expect them to do it for free.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,500
    The cost of this will be about $150 a year. If you can afford a postage stamp a day, then you have no need to worry about this.

    http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/sta ... st-about-/


    Unless of course you also want to keep your job. Some compaines will pay $500,000 or more a year on energy. Bye Bye jobs, hello Chinese workforce.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • spearheadspearhead Posts: 600
    OK, since prfctlefts has provided the right wing gop talking points for the class, I'll provide the other side.
    prfctlefts will respond by saying that I am simply quoting a left wing liberal website, but I present the argument here so you can decide for yourself, and feel free to correct this argument if you can:



    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/02/death-energy-lie/

    Media Outlet Refuses To Run Republican TV Ad Filled With Misrepresentations Of Clean Energy Bill
    This afternoon, Roanoke television station WDBJ-TV, announced they will be refusing to air a National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) ad attacking freshman Rep. Tom Perriello (D-VA), citing factual inaccuracies. The NRCC had been planning to run television ads against Democratic members of Congress, like Perriello, who voted for the Waxman-Markey clean energy economy legislation that passed last week. After receiving information about the factual inaccuracies in the ad, the station pulled it from rotation.
    For any objective observer, the the ad is pulled out of thin air. The ads erroneously state that the bill will “destroy jobs” and “cost middle-class families $1,800 a year.” According to a study by the Center for American Progress, clean energy economy legislation will create 1.7 million American jobs while simultaneously addressing climate change by capping carbon dioxide emissions. The $1,800 figure used by NRCC is also made of whole cloth. The Congressional Budget Office has scored the bill and found that by 2020, the annual cost would be about $175 per household — about a postage stamp a day. An EPA estimate of the bill found similar results, projecting the cost to be about $80 to $111 per a year.
    Still refusing to accept reality, the Republican leadership is instructing its members to lie about the clean energy economy bill:
    – Last week, Republican whip Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA) posted a message erroneously claiming that clean energy legislation will amount to “a national energy tax of up to $3,100 on all Americans.”
    – Republican leader Rep. John Boehner (R-OH) posted on his website that the clean energy bill will cost “$3,100 a year,” then modified that number to “$3,000 per household per year.”
    – Republican conference chair Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN), not to be outdone, claimed the clean energy bill would be “over $4,000 a year.”
    All the numbers cited by Republicans are at least seventeen times the highest possible projection by the CBO and EPA.
    Clearly, Republicans opposed to the clean energy bill seem willing to justify their opposition using outright falsehoods. But fortunately, at least some stations are not willing to propagate it.
    I was alone and far away when I heard the band start playing!

    ...I was always a DeadHead, but when I first heard Winston Rodney, aka the Burning Spear, sing, I became a SpearHead too!
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    For what it's worth I hope the republicans are wrong b/c who the hell wants to pay more for energy or loose more jobs.
    Obama's cap and trade legislation is the exact same thing as Al Gore's BTU tax which was the centerpiece of Clinton's 93 tax program,but he replaced it with a $.5 gasoline tax.
    But
    Obama cant call it a tax because that would break his pledge to us. So he calls it cap and trade

    If this bill passes it will be the largest Tax increase in the history of the United States. :x
  • spearheadspearhead Posts: 600
    Obama is NOT perfect ... far from it.

    He has not kept all of his promises ... he sounds like george bush when he tries to defend holding detainees indefinitely without trial, or when he fails to end DADT NOW, or when his DOJ files briefs tryng to keep dick cheney's admission to patrick fitzgerald that he broke valerie plame's cia cover from becoming public, or when he refuses to release photos of the torture this country committed under the bush adimnistration in our names, and other things too ... what a shock. He is a politician after all, and part of the same old tired two party system that has fucked this country for decades ... that said, I was glad to vote for him and I still fucking shudder to think how much worse it would have been had that maniac mccain and that idiot palin been elected.

    Now you're telling me that he is RAISING TAXES ON POLLUTERS?

    Pick your battles, man...that one ain't mine.
    I was alone and far away when I heard the band start playing!

    ...I was always a DeadHead, but when I first heard Winston Rodney, aka the Burning Spear, sing, I became a SpearHead too!
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

    They can forgive him for sighning an 800 billion stimulous bill within 24hrs of reciept complete with 8,500 earmarks without having read it.they can forgive his faux pas of criticizing AIG excecutives unbridled greed for taking the bonuses that he himself unknowingly approved and signed into law.

    O yeah what about aplogizing to all of europe for our arrogance,dismissiveness,and derisiveness.You know the kind that kept England and France from speaking German and incidentially cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

    You can currently forgive his closure of Gitmo because those who were released and got back into the fight against us haven't killed any of their relatives.

    Unemployment continues to grow. Consumer confidence continues to decline. 401k plans continue to be half of what they were a year ago.The current Budget is 3x greater than it was 6mos ago.

    Gasoline is going back up.

    Obama supporters can forgive him for these things and more b/c
    He's not Bush .
    They haven't lost their jobs yet or haven't felt the impact of his taxes yet.
  • Carbon taxes are nothing more than a precursor to a World Banking System and globalized currency scheme.

    Countries that pay a VAT tax now (so i hear) are having their international shipping labels printed up with VAT conversion information that converts from the shippers local currency in to IMF Special Drawing Rights (SDRs).

    This is on the same page with the publicly announced plans to increase the use of the once extremely limited SDRs in to a much more "consumer" type market.

    Just like with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which went hand in glove with the creation of America's income tax, the creation and empowerment of a world monetary governing (and issuing?) authority will necessarily be done in parallel with a sister tax to help defraud of and redistribute from the peoples wealth.

    Go ahead and laugh.
    The president of Rothschild Inc. has already publicly written an article declaring that carbon credits could pave the way for a "sustainable new world order" and that he hoped these credits could "replace gold as the world reserve currency". [i can pull the link off my old computer if anyone asks. Guardian likes to not display that article in their search, for some reason]
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

    Dude, when did he ever talk about a line item veto? That was struck down by the Supreme Court while CLINTON was in office. Nobody has talked about line item vetoes in a decade.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

    They can forgive him for sighning an 800 billion stimulous bill within 24hrs of reciept complete with 8,500 earmarks without having read it.they can forgive his faux pas of criticizing AIG excecutives unbridled greed for taking the bonuses that he himself unknowingly approved and signed into law.

    O yeah what about aplogizing to all of europe for our arrogance,dismissiveness,and derisiveness.You know the kind that kept England and France from speaking German and incidentially cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

    You can currently forgive his closure of Gitmo because those who were released and got back into the fight against us haven't killed any of their relatives.

    Unemployment continues to grow. Consumer confidence continues to decline. 401k plans continue to be half of what they were a year ago.The current Budget is 3x greater than it was 6mos ago.

    Gasoline is going back up.

    Obama supporters can forgive him for these things and more b/c
    He's not Bush .
    They haven't lost their jobs yet or haven't felt the impact of his taxes yet.

    this post is really interesting to me. i just read this post nearly word for word at this link. it is the quote from Jerry from Chicago.

    http://blog.heritage.org/2009/06/30/kra ... -is-wrong/
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Obama supporters arecurrently willing to over look his broken promises. For example posting proposed legislation on the web for 5 days prior to sighning it into law,exercising line item veto authority to remove earmarks and pork projects from proposed legislation,and to refrain from hiring lobbyist into his administration.

    They can forgive him for sighning an 800 billion stimulous bill within 24hrs of reciept complete with 8,500 earmarks without having read it.they can forgive his faux pas of criticizing AIG excecutives unbridled greed for taking the bonuses that he himself unknowingly approved and signed into law.

    O yeah what about aplogizing to all of europe for our arrogance,dismissiveness,and derisiveness.You know the kind that kept England and France from speaking German and incidentially cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

    You can currently forgive his closure of Gitmo because those who were released and got back into the fight against us haven't killed any of their relatives.

    Unemployment continues to grow. Consumer confidence continues to decline. 401k plans continue to be half of what they were a year ago.The current Budget is 3x greater than it was 6mos ago.

    Gasoline is going back up.

    Obama supporters can forgive him for these things and more b/c
    He's not Bush .
    They haven't lost their jobs yet or haven't felt the impact of his taxes yet.

    Obama is just horrible right, maybe. He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

    We've been in a tailspin EVER since.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • spearheadspearhead Posts: 600
    Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
    Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!
    I was alone and far away when I heard the band start playing!

    ...I was always a DeadHead, but when I first heard Winston Rodney, aka the Burning Spear, sing, I became a SpearHead too!
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    spearhead wrote:
    Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
    Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!


    so what who cares wher i hang out where the hell do you hang out when your not here O'yeah thats right you give your free time at the abortion clinic . How's that going for ya DeadHead
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    prfctlefts wrote:
    spearhead wrote:
    Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
    Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!


    so what who cares wher i hang out where the hell do you hang out when your not here O'yeah thats right you give your free time at the abortion clinic . How's that going for ya DeadHead

    Please do one post without radical generalizations of people who you disagree with...just one. Just bring a little substance to the conversation and not just a hack for your views.
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    g under p wrote:
    He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

    We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    prfctlefts wrote:
    g under p wrote:
    He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

    We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous

    To blame Clinton for 9/11 is just as ridiculous. Truth is, they both dropped the ball. You're right Clinton could have got Bin Laden...but it had nothing to do with him getting a BJ.

    Your ability to resolve to personal attacks and generalizations are amazing.
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    thank you :D
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    prfctlefts wrote:
    g under p wrote:
    He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

    We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous

    9II happened on his watch and that's a fact. To give him a free pass and that he protected us for 8 years which Cheney says repeated IS ridiculous. Bush had his same oppurtunities to get OBL in near the Afghan border and he didn't. Remember Bush said, "we're gonna smoke em out of those caves" and never came close.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    prfctlefts wrote:
    spearhead wrote:
    Well .... Hello to Jerry from Chicago...
    Now we know where prfctlefts hangs out when he's not on the Pearl Jam site...the Heritage Foundation!!!


    so what who cares wher i hang out where the hell do you hang out when your not here O'yeah thats right you give your free time at the abortion clinic . How's that going for ya DeadHead

    Please do one post without radical generalizations of people who you disagree with...just one. Just bring a little substance to the conversation and not just a hack for your views.

    would you expect anything less from this guy? thats all he does.

    by the way, whew that was hard work dodging all of those bullets at the women's clinic today.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    g under p wrote:
    prfctlefts wrote:
    g under p wrote:
    He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

    We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous

    9II happened on his watch and that's a fact. To give him a free pass and that he protected us for 8 years which Cheney says repeated IS ridiculous. Bush had his same oppurtunities to get OBL in near the Afghan border and he didn't. Remember Bush said, "we're gonna smoke em out of those caves" and never came close.

    Peace[/quote
    Im not giving Bush a pass but to blame all of 911 on his administration is wrong. It's obvious you don't know or care to know the events that led up 911 or why we haven't been able or weren't able to catch OBL after 911.
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Im not giving Bush a pass but to blame all of 911 on his administration is wrong. It's obvious you don't know or care to know the events that led up 911 or why we haven't been able or weren't able to catch OBL after 911.

    maybe you could enlighten us as to why Osama bin Laden has yet to be captured. of course it wouldn't have anything to do with Bush's comments 6 months after september 11th now would it?

    "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." President Bush, 3/13/02

    it's not our priority? interesting.

    and for fucks sake learn how to use the quoting feature. it's not that hard. you've had 1008 practices.
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    prfctlefts wrote:
    g under p wrote:
    He's been in office now 6 months and in 8 GWB really kept us safe when 911 happened right! Which by far was worse than what has happened so far, as you so have stated so lighten dude.

    We were attacked twice on Clinton's watch do you not remember The Cole and the first WTC bombing ? Alqeda grew on Clinton's watch.And Clinton didn't do a damn thing. He had several chances to get Bin Laden and didn't. He was to busy getting a B.J in the oval office. Why don't you go back and look at all the plots and cells The Bush administration stopped since 911. To blame bush for 911 is ridiculous

    To blame Clinton for 9/11 is just as ridiculous. Truth is, they both dropped the ball. You're right Clinton could have got Bin Laden...but it had nothing to do with him getting a BJ.

    Your ability to resolve to personal attacks and generalizations are amazing.


    and let's not forget when Bush took office he actually cut money from the FBI and other agencies dealing with terrorism....Clinton also had drones searching for OBL to kill him, early in Bush's first term drones found OBL but he couldn't resolve the bickering of which agency should control the kill and he got away.

    it could also be pointed out under Reagan and Bush al qaeda was funded and created, OBL worked for another group until we got involved in Afghanistan then broke off to create training camps and supply routes for the mujhadeen with a generous contribution from our government (and a few others)

    that said, here's another critique of the bill

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kucini ... 6-786.html

    Kucinich: "Passing a weak bill today gives us weak environmental policy tomorrow"-

    "I oppose H.R. 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009. The reason is simple. It won't address the problem. In fact, it might make the problem worse."

    "It sets targets that are too weak, especially in the short term,
    and sets about meeting those targets through Enron-style accounting methods.
    It gives new life to one of the primary sources of the problem that should be
    on its way out"" coal "" by giving it record subsidies. And it is
    rounded out with massive corporate giveaways at taxpayer expense. There is $60
    billion for a single technology which may or may not work, but which enables
    coal power plants to keep warming the planet at least another 20 years.

    "Worse, the bill locks us into a framework that will fail.
    Science tells us that immediately is not soon enough to begin repairing the
    planet. Waiting another decade or more will virtually guarantee catastrophic
    levels of warming. But the bill does not require any greenhouse gas reductions
    beyond current levels until 2030.

    "Today's bill is a fragile compromise, which leads some to
    claim that we cannot do better. I respectfully submit that not only can
    we do better; we have no choice but to do better. Indeed, if we pass a
    bill that only creates the illusion of addressing the problem, we walk away
    with only an illusion. The price for that illusion is the opportunity to take
    substantive action.

    "There are several aspects of the bill that are problematic.
    1. Overall targets are too weak. The bill is
    predicated on a target atmospheric concentration of 450 parts per million, a
    target that is arguably justified in the latest report from the Intergovernmental
    Panel on Climate Change, but which is already out of date. Recent science
    suggests 350 parts per million is necessary to help us avoid the worst effects
    of global warming.

    2. The offsets undercut the emission reductions.
    Offsets allow polluters to keep polluting; they are rife with fraudulent claims
    of emissions reduction; they create environmental, social, and economic unintended
    adverse consequences; and they codify and endorse the idea that polluters do
    not have to make sacrifices to solve the problem.

    3. It kicks the can down the road. By
    requiring the bulk of the emissions to be carried out in the long term and
    requiring few reductions in the short term, we are not only failing to take the
    action when it is needed to address rapid global warming, but we are assuming
    the long term targets will remain intact.

    4. EPA's authority to help reduce
    greenhouse gas emissions in the short- to medium-term is rescinded. It is our
    best defense against a new generation of coal power plants. There is no room
    for coal as a major energy source in a future with a stable climate.

    5. Nuclear power is given a lifeline instead
    of phasing it out. Nuclear power
    is far more expensive, has major safety issues including a near release in my
    own home state in 2002, and there is still no resolution to the waste problem.
    A recent study by Dr. Mark Cooper showed that it would cost $1.9 trillion to
    $4.1 trillion more over the life of 100 new nuclear reactors than to generate
    the same amount of electricity from energy efficiency and renewables.

    6. Dirty Coal
    is given a lifeline instead of phasing it out. Coal-based energy
    destroys entire mountains, kills and injures workers at higher rates than most
    other occupations, decimates ecologically sensitive wetlands and streams,
    creates ponds of ash that are so toxic the Department of Homeland Security will
    not disclose their locations for fear of their potential to become a terrorist
    weapon, and fouls the air and water with sulfur oxides, nitrogen oxides, particulates,
    mercury, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and thousands of other toxic
    compounds that cause asthma, birth defects, learning disabilities, and
    pulmonary and cardiac problems for starters. In contrast, several times more
    jobs are yielded by renewable energy investments than comparable coal
    investments.

    7. The $60 billion allocated for Carbon Capture and
    Sequestration (CCS) is triple the amount of money for basic research
    and development in the bill. We should be pressuring China,
    India and Russia to slow and stop their power
    plants now instead of enabling their perpetuation. We cannot create that
    pressure while spending unprecedented amounts on a single technology that may
    or may not work. If it does not work on the necessary scale, we have then spent
    10-20 years emitting more CO2, which we cannot afford to do. In addition, those
    who will profit from the technology will not be viable or able to stem any
    leaks from CCS facilities that may occur 50, 100, or 1000 years from now.

    8. Carbon markets can and will be manipulated
    using the same Wall Street sleights of hand that brought us the financial
    crisis.

    9. It is regressive. Free allocations doled
    out with the intent of blunting the effects on those of modest means will pale
    in comparison to the allocations that go to polluters and special interests. The
    financial benefits of offsets and unlimited banking also tend to accrue to
    large corporations. And of course, the trillion dollar carbon derivatives
    market will help Wall Street investors. Much of the benefits designed to
    assist consumers are passed through coal companies and other large corporations,
    on whom we will rely to pass on the savings.

    10. The Renewable
    Electricity Standard (RES) is not an improvement. The 15% RES
    standard would be achieved even if we failed to act.

    11. Dirty energy options qualify as "renewable"-:
    The bill allows polluting industries to qualify as "renewable energy."-
    Trash incinerators not only emit greenhouse gases, but also emit highly toxic
    substances. These plants disproportionately expose communities of color and
    low-income to the toxics. Biomass burners that allow the use of trees as a
    fuel source are also defined as "renewable."- Under the bill,
    neither source of greenhouse gas emissions is counted as contributing to global
    warming.

    12. It undermines our bargaining position in international
    negotiations in Copenhagen
    and beyond. As the biggest per capita polluter, we have a responsibility to
    take action that is disproportionately stronger than the actions of other
    countries. It is, in fact, the best way to preserve credibility in the
    international context.

    13. International assistance is much less than demanded by
    developing countries. Given the level of climate change that is already in the
    pipeline, we are going to need to devote major resources toward adaptation. Developing
    countries will need it the most, which is why they are calling for much more resources
    for adaptation and technology transfer than is allocated in this bill. This
    will also undercut our position in Copenhagen.

    "I offered eight amendments and cosponsored two more that
    collectively would have turned the bill into an acceptable starting point. All
    amendments were not allowed to be offered to the full House. Three amendments
    endeavored to minimize the damage that will be done by offsets, a method of
    achieving greenhouse gas reductions that has already racked up a history of
    failure to reduce emissions "" increasing emissions in some cases ""
    while displacing people in developing countries who rely on the land for their
    well being.

    "Three other amendments would have made the federal government a
    force for change by requiring all federal energy to eventually come from
    renewable resources, by requiring the federal government to transition to
    electric and plug-in hybrid cars, and by requiring the installation of solar
    panels on government rooftops and parking lots. These provisions would
    accelerate the transition to a green economy.

    "Another amendment would have moved up the year by which
    reductions of greenhouse gas emissions were required from 2030 to 2025. It
    would have encouraged the efficient use of allowances and would have reduced
    opportunities for speculation by reducing the emission value of an allowance by
    a third each year.

    "The last amendment would have removed trash incineration from the definition of
    renewable energy. Trash incineration is one of the primary sources of
    environmental injustice in the country. It a primary source of compounds in
    the air known to cause cancer, asthma, and other chronic diseases. These
    facilities are disproportionately sited in communities of color and communities
    of low income. Furthermore, incinerators emit more carbon dioxide per unit of
    electricity produced than coal-fired power plants.

    "Passing a weak bill today gives us weak environmental policy
    tomorrow,"- said Kucinich.
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    and let's not forget when Bush took office he actually cut money from the FBI and other agencies dealing with terrorism....Clinton also had drones searching for OBL to kill him, early in Bush's first term drones found OBL but he couldn't resolve the bickering of which agency should control the kill and he got away.

    it could also be pointed out under Reagan and Bush al qaeda was funded and created, OBL worked for another group until we got involved in Afghanistan then broke off to create training camps and supply routes for the mujhadeen with a generous contribution from our government (and a few others)

    With all due respect, do your self a favor and go read the book: JAWBREAKER The attack on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, A personal account by the CIA's key field commander by Gary Bertsen

    That is if you really want to know the facts.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    prfctlefts wrote:
    and let's not forget when Bush took office he actually cut money from the FBI and other agencies dealing with terrorism....Clinton also had drones searching for OBL to kill him, early in Bush's first term drones found OBL but he couldn't resolve the bickering of which agency should control the kill and he got away.

    it could also be pointed out under Reagan and Bush al qaeda was funded and created, OBL worked for another group until we got involved in Afghanistan then broke off to create training camps and supply routes for the mujhadeen with a generous contribution from our government (and a few others)

    With all due respect, do your self a favor and go read the book: JAWBREAKER The attack on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, A personal account by the CIA's key field commander by Gary Bertsen

    That is if you really want to know the facts.
    this book is probably just another hatchet job that blames clinton for everything written by one of the hawks in the cia, because nothing is ever the cia's fault. curveball, shitty iraq intelligence, link between saddam and osama etc etc, all of which have turned out to be complete bullshit..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    prfctlefts wrote:
    and let's not forget when Bush took office he actually cut money from the FBI and other agencies dealing with terrorism....Clinton also had drones searching for OBL to kill him, early in Bush's first term drones found OBL but he couldn't resolve the bickering of which agency should control the kill and he got away.

    it could also be pointed out under Reagan and Bush al qaeda was funded and created, OBL worked for another group until we got involved in Afghanistan then broke off to create training camps and supply routes for the mujhadeen with a generous contribution from our government (and a few others)

    With all due respect, do your self a favor and go read the book: JAWBREAKER The attack on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, A personal account by the CIA's key field commander by Gary Bertsen

    That is if you really want to know the facts.

    We all know that OBL could have been captured at Torra Borra, and that is the basis of this book. Nothing really new there.
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    prfctlefts wrote:
    and let's not forget when Bush took office he actually cut money from the FBI and other agencies dealing with terrorism....Clinton also had drones searching for OBL to kill him, early in Bush's first term drones found OBL but he couldn't resolve the bickering of which agency should control the kill and he got away.

    it could also be pointed out under Reagan and Bush al qaeda was funded and created, OBL worked for another group until we got involved in Afghanistan then broke off to create training camps and supply routes for the mujhadeen with a generous contribution from our government (and a few others)

    With all due respect, do your self a favor and go read the book: JAWBREAKER The attack on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, A personal account by the CIA's key field commander by Gary Bertsen

    That is if you really want to know the facts.
    this book is probably just another hatchet job that blames clinton for everything written by one of the hawks in the cia, because nothing is ever the cia's fault. curveball, shitty iraq intelligence, link between saddam and osama etc etc, all of which have turned out to be complete bullshit..

    Haven't you ever heard the term don't judge a book by it's cover ?
    Well this is one of those books ;)
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