Liberalism and Human rights

WaveCameCrashin

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525563,00.html

I know most of you despise this man but give it a read cos I would like to get some feedback on this especially from liberals.

Respectfully
C.

VINNY GOOMBA

I'm not a liberal, but I'll chime in. What evidence do we have that only 3 terrorists were actually waterboarded other than the word of the people doing the waterboarding? If you ask OJ Simpson what evidence there was that he didn't kill his wife...

jlew24asu

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I'm not a liberal, but I'll chime in. What evidence do we have that only 3 terrorists were actually waterboarded other than the word of the people doing the waterboarding? If you ask OJ Simpson what evidence there was that he didn't kill his wife...

I do believe, even the prisoners at Guantanamo, have all had access to the red cross and none have admitted to being waterboared, except those 3. at least that I have heard. I also think the US take records of all its actions, even waterboarding.

there really isn't much benefit to waterboarding low level people anyway. its the people at the top that have the info.

keeponrockin

Ok, I'll bite... Two totally seperate issues, however...

We know the terrorists are horrible, dispicable people. Having said that, the SECOND we torture anyone, we have no right to condemn those people that do, including when they do it to American soldiers, period.

Regarding Tiller... Abortion is most certainly a controversal issue, having said that, Tiller was innocent according to the law. What he did was completly legal, and he WAS a hero because he was doing something so dangerous (death threats) for the women that needed it. And then he was murdered in cold blood at church.

If this guy was Christian (the murderer of Tiller) does 'Thou shal not kill' mean anything to him?

VINNY GOOMBA

Bill O'Reilly:

But when a liberal cause is shown to be brutal, left-wing reaction is quite something else. Investigators in Kansas have presented strong evidence that late-term abortion doctor, George Tiller, who was murdered by a domestic terrorist, destroyed viable fetuses for trivial reasons.

===========

Stop right there. Here we go with the T word again. If there is one thing that Fox and CNN can agree on, it's that EVERYONE is a potential threat. Bill is half right that the liberal stations are covering the wrong news. The other half is that FOX is equally guilty. How about the whole mainstream media start covering the fact that we've been completely played by Al Queda? The attacks on 9/11 were bad enough-- but all those pricks did is flick the first domino in a long string of them. We didn't stop it, we've let the rest of them fall. Since then, we've completely wreaked havoc on the Constitution, destroyed the economy, expanded the definition of "terrorist" to include anyone that breathes, created non-stop fear and panic perpetuated by these jerks in the media, killed or injured thousands of American soldiers, and tens-to-hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians and soldiers.

There's your news, Billy.

WaveCameCrashin

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I'm not a liberal, but I'll chime in. What evidence do we have that only 3 terrorists were actually waterboarded other than the word of the people doing the waterboarding? If you ask OJ Simpson what evidence there was that he didn't kill his wife...

I dont know but I personally think If more have been water borted they the detainees the ones that have been released would have come forward .

If not them I would think if they were lying someone would have said something by now. But this thread isn't about waterborting . I just wanted to point out the examples of hipocracy with some liberals or what I believe is

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I'm not a liberal, but I'll chime in. What evidence do we have that only 3 terrorists were actually waterboarded other than the word of the people doing the waterboarding? If you ask OJ Simpson what evidence there was that he didn't kill his wife...

WaveCameCrashin

keeponrockin wrote:

If this guy was Christian (the murderer of Tiller) does 'Thou shal not kill' mean anything to him?

He has done nothin but condemn the murder of Dr. Tiller. Even though he hated what he did.

keeponrockin

prfctlefts wrote:

keeponrockin wrote:

If this guy was Christian (the murderer of Tiller) does 'Thou shal not kill' mean anything to him?

He has done nothin but condemn the murder of Dr. Tiller. Even though he hated what he did.

I meant the guy who actually killed Tiller.

VINNY GOOMBA

prfctlefts wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I'm not a liberal, but I'll chime in. What evidence do we have that only 3 terrorists were actually waterboarded other than the word of the people doing the waterboarding? If you ask OJ Simpson what evidence there was that he didn't kill his wife...

I dont know but I personally think If more have been water borted they the detainees the ones that have been released would have come forward .

If not them I would think if they were lying someone would have said something by now. But this thread isn't about waterborting . I just wanted to point out the examples of hipocracy with some liberals or what I believe is

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I'm not a liberal, but I'll chime in. What evidence do we have that only 3 terrorists were actually waterboarded other than the word of the people doing the waterboarding? If you ask OJ Simpson what evidence there was that he didn't kill his wife...

I have yet to see one of these detainees interviewed. I wouldn't even know how a member of the press could interview them-- it's not like the reporters can wait outside of Gitmo with a camera and a microphone, and be fluent in Arabic (or have a translator). Even if they were tortured, why admit it? Any chance that leaking such info could lead you back into the torture chamber? Actually, if I were to ever torture someone, I'd probably threaten to torture them worse if they ever squealed about it. That should be enough motivation to keep things silent.

Hypocritical liberals? Of course! Just like hypocritcal conservatives. The point I'm making is, when it comes to the media: The left wing calls out the right wing on some bullshit. The right wing calls out the left wing on some bullshit. It's the same fuckin bird that dwells on nothing but bullshit.

WaveCameCrashin

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I have yet to see one of these detainees interviewed. I wouldn't even know how a member of the press could interview them-- it's not like the reporters can wait outside of Gitmo with a camera and a microphone, and be fluent in Arabic (or have a translator). Even if they were tortured, why admit it? Any chance that leaking such info could lead you back into the torture chamber? Actually, if I were to ever torture someone, I'd probably threaten to torture them worse if they ever squealed about it. That should be enough motivation to keep things silent.

Actually Nat Geo did a Doc. on Gitmo about a month ago and they Interviewed several ex detainees who were recently freed from Gitmo and I don't recall them saying anything about being waterboarded.

It's a really good Doc Im sure you can find it on their web site.

VINNY GOOMBA

prfctlefts wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I have yet to see one of these detainees interviewed. I wouldn't even know how a member of the press could interview them-- it's not like the reporters can wait outside of Gitmo with a camera and a microphone, and be fluent in Arabic (or have a translator). Even if they were tortured, why admit it? Any chance that leaking such info could lead you back into the torture chamber? Actually, if I were to ever torture someone, I'd probably threaten to torture them worse if they ever squealed about it. That should be enough motivation to keep things silent.

Actually Nat Geo did a Doc. on Gitmo about a month ago and they Interviewed several ex detainees who were recently freed from Gitmo and I don't recall them saying anything about being waterboarded.

It's a really good Doc Im sure you can find it on their web site.

I'll checka checka check it out. Thanks.

Anon

keeponrockin wrote:

Regarding Tiller... Abortion is most certainly a controversal issue, having said that, Tiller was innocent according to the law. What he did was completly legal, and he WAS a hero because he was doing something so dangerous (death threats) for the women that needed it. And then he was murdered in cold blood at church.

If this guy was Christian (the murderer of Tiller) does 'Thou shal not kill' mean anything to him?

If Tiller believed in a God I'm sure he is answering for what he has done, regardless of any laws made.

keeponrockin

JB811 wrote:

keeponrockin wrote:

Regarding Tiller... Abortion is most certainly a controversal issue, having said that, Tiller was innocent according to the law. What he did was completly legal, and he WAS a hero because he was doing something so dangerous (death threats) for the women that needed it. And then he was murdered in cold blood at church.

If this guy was Christian (the murderer of Tiller) does 'Thou shal not kill' mean anything to him?

If Tiller believed in a God I'm sure he is answering for what he has done, regardless of any laws made.

I'm a 'practicing Athiest' so I think its all a bunch of bullshit... But I do think it's funny when 'pro-life' people kill.

Cosmo

My take is this... the ends does not always justify the means.
I love America because we are supposed to be above that. Yeah, often times we are not. I love the ideal of what America should be and can be. Employing tactics used by the former Soviet Union and Viet Cong soldiers to our milirary airmen is not a part of what I believe America should be. When we doe that... we sell ourselves off due to fear.

_

1. I don't watch Bill O'Reilly, so I really don't know - but what's his purpose? I mean, what does he contribute to society? What exactly does he hope to accomplish with what he says?

2. He said we're not a "torture nation" because we only waterboarded 3 people and they were terrorists. Assuming it's true that we've only waterboarded 3 people, they were all terrorists, and we have never engaged in any other kind of turture - how many people do you have to torture to be a "torture nation"? What is a "torture nation" if not a nation that tortures? We are a nation. We tortured. Therefore....

3. He said Tiller killed viable fetuses for no good reason.
A. He was found innocent of this charge.
B. Who made O'Reilly the judge of what constitutes a good reason?
C. The argument that fetuses are not people - and therefore not comparable to terrorists, who are people - has yet to be discredited.

Cosmo

scb wrote:

1. I don't watch Bill O'Reilly, so I really don't know - but what's his purpose? I mean, what does he contribute to society? What exactly does he hope to accomplish with what he says?

2. He said we're not a "torture nation" because we only waterboarded 3 people and they were terrorists. Assuming it's true that we've only waterboarded 3 people, they were all terrorists, and we have never engaged in any other kind of turture - how many people do you have to torture to be a "torture nation"? What is a "torture nation" if not a nation that tortures? We are a nation. We tortured. Therefore....

3. He said Tiller killed viable fetuses for no good reason.
A. He was found innocent of this charge.
B. Who made O'Reilly the judge of what constitutes a good reason?
C. The argument that fetuses are not people - and therefore not comparable to terrorists, who are people - has yet to be discredited.

...
You bring up some viable points...
Using Bill's logic.. 'We ONLY waterboarded 3 people'... I guess Bill can say a serial murderer isn't really a serial murderer if he only murders 3 people, right? Okay.. to keep the 'waterboarding isn't murder because there were doctors to makes sure they didn't die' people at bay... so, a serial rapist isn't a really serial rapist if he only rapes 3 women. Still too harsh to compare waterboarding to rape? Okay... he only rapes 3 prostitutes, how's that? Still too harsh? How about a child molester who only molested 3 children?
The point being... torture is torture, murder is murder, rape is rape. The number doesn't matter.
And if you don't think waterboarding is torture... have someone waterboard your mother or father while you watch and get back to me on that.
And NO... I don't like those assholes they were interrogating. They are assholes and deserve the maximum our laws allow. But, in order to remain a civilized people... we don't get Medieval on their asses. We have talented law enforcement interrogators that can coax information from suspects. Use those people and those tactics and let us remain America.

WaveCameCrashin

scb wrote:

don't watch Bill O'Reilly, so I really don't know - but what's his purpose? I mean, what does he contribute to society? What exactly does he hope to accomplish with what he says

http://www.billoreilly.com/pg/jsp/billsfavorites/billscharities.jsp

Id say the man does alot for society. What do you think ?


And Dr. Tiller was not charged with performing late term abortions in which the fetus's were viable.

Kansas law prohibits aborting viable fetuses,UNLESS 2 doctors certify that continuing the pregnancy would cause the woman substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.

tiller went on trial in march of 09. He was charged with 19 misdemeanor's of allegedly consulting a 2nd physician in late term abortion cases who was truly not independent as required by Kansas state law.

on 3/27/09he was found not guilty of all charges

jlew24asu

prfctlefts wrote:

scb wrote:

what does he contribute to society?

http://www.billoreilly.com/pg/jsp/billsfavorites/billscharities.jsp

Id say the man does alot for society. What do you think ?

first thing that came to my mind as well. Bill donates 100% of the money he makes from his websites to charity. its in the millions.

I think that very much answers scb's question.

_

prfctlefts wrote:

scb wrote:

don't watch Bill O'Reilly, so I really don't know - but what's his purpose? I mean, what does he contribute to society? What exactly does he hope to accomplish with what he says

http://www.billoreilly.com/pg/jsp/billsfavorites/billscharities.jsp

Id say the man does alot for society. What do you think ?

I didn't mean to ask what he contributes to society overall; I meant, what does the things he says on his show contribute to society? And I mean it as a serious question.

prfctlefts wrote:

And Dr. Tiller was not charged with performing late term abortions in which the fetus's were viable.

Kansas law prohibits aborting viable fetuses,UNLESS 2 doctors certify that continuing the pregnancy would cause the woman substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.

tiller went on trial in march of 09. He was charged with 19 misdemeanor's of allegedly consulting a 2nd physician in late term abortion cases who was truly not independent as required by Kansas state law.

on 3/27/09he was found not guilty of all charges

Well if he was aborting viable fetuses for trivial reasons, as Bill says he was (with no evidence and no conviction), why was he never charged with breaking this law?

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

scb wrote:

don't watch Bill O'Reilly, so I really don't know - but what's his purpose? I mean, what does he contribute to society? What exactly does he hope to accomplish with what he says

http://www.billoreilly.com/pg/jsp/billsfavorites/billscharities.jsp

Id say the man does alot for society. What do you think ?

I didn't mean to ask what he contributes to society overall; I meant, what does the things he says on his show contribute to society? And I mean it as a serious question.

how is that a serious question? what does Larry King's show contribute to society? how about Keith Olberman? Sean Hannity?

they all contribute equally..which is not much at all. just another guy on cable news talking current events.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

how is that a serious question? what does Larry King's show contribute to society? how about Keith Olberman? Sean Hannity?

they all contribute equally..which is not much at all. just another guy on cable news talking current events.

As I already said, I don't watch O'Reilly and don't know anything about him - that's how it was a serious question. If you don't have a serious answer, then no need to respond. :roll: I don't watch Olberman or Hannity either, so your comparison is meaningless to me. I occassionally watch Larry King depending on the guest, and I'd say his show is valuable for its primary sources (e.g. if I want to know something about Eddie Vedder & he interviews Eddie Vedder, then King has provided more than just his own opinion about the topic in which I'm interested).