Bowie is OK, but there is more

karmadefect · April 2018

I can't see why Bowie is that great. I think he is OK, but not the absolute best.
I often get the feeling that I am supposed to feel Bowie is the summit. An obvious point of critiec for me would be his singing.
To me it seems plain to see-hear that there are better voices in rock music than Bowie is.
I mentioned this to a friend of mine which has a wide range of music but is also a Bowie fan amongst a few others.
There was no discussion possible. Saying there where better singers was equal to not being educatied enough.
Although I do see what Bowie has to set him apart or make him pop out to someone. I can´t see why he should be the standard of things.
In my opinion Chris Cornell is a better singer with a greater voice and range than Bowie is.

OffSheGoes35 · April 2018

I can understand what you're saying. Chris Cornell does have a better voice. There are better voices out there, but Bowie was an experience. He was imaginative, creative, and fun. At least, that's the way I like to think of him. He holds a special place in many people's hearts. I don't know if he is THE standard, but people could do worse...

karmadefect · April 2018

They sure can do worse. I won´t run from a room where Bowie is played.
But I get the feeling that he should be loved above all else and if you don´t, well then you just don´t know what you are talking about.

OffSheGoes35 · April 2018

karmadefect said:

They sure can do worse. I won´t run from a room where Bowie is played.
But I get the feeling that he should be loved above all else and if you don´t, well then you just don´t know what you are talking about.

I felt the same way for a long time, but then I listened to The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars, and then I got it. My parents didn't listen to Bowie as I was growing up, so I didn't understand what the big deal was. I even remember buying a 2-disc set of his and still wondering why everyone seemed to love him so. Like I said though, once I listened to Ziggy Stardust years later, I started to feel differently about his music.

tempo_n_groove · April 2018

I do not get Bowie. Never had. Not my thing man...

karmadefect · April 2018

My sister in law is an even bigger fan than my friend is. I once made a candle wax statue for her relating to the Spinders of mars. It was for a hollidaygift, which in my country goes with a certain homemade creativity efford. The gift was a live bootleg of Bowie which I listed to on repeat while making the statue. It was quete all right to listen to the gig. I just can´t stand the high horse Bowie is put on.
The fact that I am a Pearl Jam fan doesn´t mean I can´t find any faults/flaws in the way they are or their catalgue. I had an arguement with my friend tonight about this which was all good laughs to a certain point. When I mentioned that the singing of Bowie was abviously not his strongest point and that Chris Cornell was a better singer things got a bit heated.

OffSheGoes35 · April 2018

Lol! Well, I don't get angry if people don't care for his music. I used to be one of those people. What if somebody didn't like Chris Cornell's voice though? Are they ok or is that crazy talk?

And what a cool gift idea!!

deadendp · April 2018

Bowie has never been my thing. I agree that I don't run if he is on. Just not my gig.

OffSheGoes35 · April 2018

Fair enough. I wonder how many more people feel this way.

Tim Simmons · April 2018

I think even massive Bowie fans find fault in his catalog. Especially in his late 80's most of the 90's stuff.

the reason why he is held in such high regard is his fearlessness to change amidst a successful formula. I don't think it was very common in the 70's and early 80's, especially among his contemporaries.

But at the end of the day, people like some stuff, others don't. It is what it is.

I don't like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin. I get why people like them. Its not garbage to my ears, I just think they are meh. I know many don't agree. But I expect them to be tolerant of my opinion. People will feel the same way with you and Bowie.

bootlegger10 · April 2018

Tim Simmons said:

I think even massive Bowie fans find fault in his catalog. Especially in his late 80's most of the 90's stuff.

the reason why he is held in such high regard is his fearlessness to change amidst a successful formula. I don't think it was very common in the 70's and early 80's, especially among his contemporaries.

But at the end of the day, people like some stuff, others don't. It is what it is.

I don't like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin. I get why people like them. Its not garbage to my ears, I just think they are meh. I know many don't agree. But I expect them to be tolerant of my opinion. People will feel the same way with you and Bowie.

I completely agree. There is a ton of great music out there that just does nothing for me. The Black Keys for example. I won't disparage it, but I have never and will likely never make it through an entire Black Keys song.

JH6056 · April 2018

First off, I never understand anyone who gets truly angry or seriously offended by someone not being as crazy about an artist as they are. Or someone criticizing an aspect of that artist. It's all subjective, and so NOT worth getting truly upset about.

Second, yup, I can see people feeling other artists have a better singing voice than Bowie. But I recently took my 9 yr old kiddo to the opening of the "David Bowie Is" exhibit in NYC, and it truly captured what a PHENOMENON and actual cultural game-changer he was, and not only once, but at several phases of his life. Those periods, and his ridiculous variety of talents, are some of why I am such a huge fan of his and have such total respect.

That doesn't mean you have to love him, or even like him. But on the Bowie vs. Chris Cornell, I'm not mad at you for preferring Cornell, but I also don't understand where exactly you're gettign the feeling you're supposed to love or respect or bow down to Bowie over anyone else? Where are you getting that idea? If you know his history and his influence on music and greater culture, you can't really argue that Cornell is AS or even MORE of a cultural influence than Bowie, cuz there is literally no evidence to support that. But if you think Cornell is by far the better singer, who can get upset about that? I don't know of anyone who insists that just because Bowie was extraordinarily talented, he should be worshipped above all others.

And me personally, as giant a Bowie fan as I am, I don't think ANY artist should be worshipped. None.

rgambs · April 2018

I like Bowie as an icon, but 90% of his music is barely tolerable.
There's nothing wrong with melody!

DewieCox · April 2018

Love Ziggy and Hunky Dory. Like Aladdin Sane and it’s definitely a grower. Everything else is spotty or too self indulgent to me.

karmadefect · April 2018

OffSheGoes35 said:

Lol! Well, I don't get angry if people don't care for his music. I used to be one of those people. What if somebody didn't like Chris Cornell's voice though? Are they ok or is that crazy talk?

And what a cool gift idea!!

She was very happy with the gift and the statue as well.

I don't get angry if someone doesn't like Chris Cornell's voice.
Liking a voice is about taste. However the way he used his voice showed his skills
His range was very wide and those are two things that are more factual.

karmadefect · April 2018

JH6056 said:

First off, I never understand anyone who gets truly angry or seriously offended by someone not being as crazy about an artist as they are. Or someone criticizing an aspect of that artist. It's all subjective, and so NOT worth getting truly upset about.

Second, yup, I can see people feeling other artists have a better singing voice than Bowie. But I recently took my 9 yr old kiddo to the opening of the "David Bowie Is" exhibit in NYC, and it truly captured what a PHENOMENON and actual cultural game-changer he was, and not only once, but at several phases of his life. Those periods, and his ridiculous variety of talents, are some of why I am such a huge fan of his and have such total respect.

That doesn't mean you have to love him, or even like him. But on the Bowie vs. Chris Cornell, I'm not mad at you for preferring Cornell, but I also don't understand where exactly you're gettign the feeling you're supposed to love or respect or bow down to Bowie over anyone else? Where are you getting that idea? If you know his history and his influence on music and greater culture, you can't really argue that Cornell is AS or even MORE of a cultural influence than Bowie, cuz there is literally no evidence to support that. But if you think Cornell is by far the better singer, who can get upset about that? I don't know of anyone who insists that just because Bowie was extraordinarily talented, he should be worshipped above all others.

And me personally, as giant a Bowie fan as I am, I don't think ANY artist should be worshipped. None.

I didn't mean Cornell had more cultural influence. I didn't even mean Cornell was a greater artist although he is more to my liking than Bowie is. What I reacted on was the sense of superiority that I notice with quite a few Bowie fans. The idea that he is better than other artists and he can't seem to do anything wrong. And that if you don't see that, that the fault is with me and not because of Bowie.
I used Cornell in de discussion because I had hoped my friend who also likes Soundgarden would be able to be just a bit less high and mighty about Bowie.
I thought it would go without saying that Bowie isn't really the greatest singer and I expacted her to at least agree with that. When she didn't I suggested that there where others who were better. Using Cornell as an exaple.

JH6056 · April 2018

Karmadefect, it just still sounds to me like maybe the whole issue of attitude and who is open to whose view is still a wee bit TOO important to you and your friend, and maybe you're both guilty of that? I just don't get feeling so strongly about it that you need someone else to be able to admit or open up to something about a musician.

But maybe that's just me....

josevolution · April 2018

I never get the logic behind these threads sure they are great for debating but what you find to be a great someone else will consider it garbage , i don't own any Bowie material if he comes on the Radio i listen ..
yes i debated who the best band was for yrs but that was when i was 17 ...

karmadefect · April 2018

Sure your right, but once you get into a conversation your in it.
Not sure though if it is important to her. It is to me.

josevolution · April 2018

karmadefect said:

Sure your right, but once you get into a conversation your in it.
Not sure though if it is important to her. It is to me.

Oh ok i hear you so who would you consider to be a great singer we are talking just singers not song writters correct ?

karmadefect · April 2018

josevolution said:

karmadefect said:

Sure your right, but once you get into a conversation your in it.
Not sure though if it is important to her. It is to me.

Oh ok i hear you so who would you consider to be a great singer we are talking just singers not song writters correct ?

I did use Chris Cornell as an example with my friend because of his singing yes. I wasn't talking about his songwriting.

But who I think are great singers? If I am just looking at Rock/Pop type of singers I'd say Freddie Mercury was the greatest. But I am not overly enthusiastic about his music. If I look at singers I admire of whom I also like the way they sing and their music. I'd say Chris Cornell, Eddie Vedder, Skin from Skunk anasie and Robert Plant. To name a few.

And you?

PJ_Soul · April 2018

It's all subjective no matter how you look at is, so there probably isn't much point in overthinking this one. People can go right ahead and think that Justin Beiber is the best singer of all time for all I care, and I wouldn't blame them for thinking they totally know what they're talking about, because to them, it's true, which makes them right. That's their truth. I simply wouldn't agree. I've got my own truth as far as who the best singers/artists are (Bowie was amazing btw. I prefer Bowie to Cornell personally - Bowie was just so much more interesting, as much as I liked Cornell as well. But I don't expect anyone else to give a crap!

).

karmadefect · April 2018

PJ_Soul said:

It's all subjective no matter how you look at is, so there probably isn't much point in overthinking this one. People can go right ahead and think that Justin Beiber is the best singer of all time for all I care, and I wouldn't blame them for thinking they totally know what they're talking about, because to them, it's true, which makes them right. That's their truth. I simply wouldn't agree. I've got my own truth as far as who the best singers/artists are (Bowie was amazing btw. I prefer Bowie to Cornell personally - Bowie was just so much more interesting, as much as I liked Cornell as well. But I don't expect anyone else to give a crap! ).

I understand what you say. I don't mind my friend liking Bowie. I mind the arrogance alot of Bowie fans I know seem to have.
I mentioned Bowie's voice because I thought my friend would say Yeah you are right that isn't Bowies strongest point.I just didn't expect her to put Bowie on such a height that noone could hold a candle to him in any regard. I thought mentioning Bowies voice would bring her down to earth.

For instance if I would be rambling on about how great Motorpsycho is and someone would say that the singer can't sing I wouldn't try and defend them just because I like them. I know Motorpsycho are far, far from the best singers. If someone would say Pearl Jam isn't quite as inventive as Bowie was, I would have to agree. Eventhough I love Pearl Jam. It seems rather silly to claim Pearl Jam is more inventive than Bowie was.

Likewise it seems rather silly to think Bowie had a better voice than Chris Cornell did. You say Bowie is more interesting. I guess that's an open door. Interesting is putting it mildly. But as a mucisian I feel it's despite his voice that he is an icon. Where Cornell seems so great in large part due to his voice.

PJ_Soul · April 2018

karmadefect said:

PJ_Soul said:

It's all subjective no matter how you look at is, so there probably isn't much point in overthinking this one. People can go right ahead and think that Justin Beiber is the best singer of all time for all I care, and I wouldn't blame them for thinking they totally know what they're talking about, because to them, it's true, which makes them right. That's their truth. I simply wouldn't agree. I've got my own truth as far as who the best singers/artists are (Bowie was amazing btw. I prefer Bowie to Cornell personally - Bowie was just so much more interesting, as much as I liked Cornell as well. But I don't expect anyone else to give a crap! ).

I understand what you say. I don't mind my friend liking Bowie. I mind the arrogance alot of Bowie fans I know seem to have.
I mentioned Bowie's voice because I thought my friend would say Yeah you are right that isn't Bowies strongest point.I just didn't expect her to put Bowie on such a height that noone could hold a candle to him in any regard. I thought mentioning Bowies voice would bring her down to earth.

For instance if I would be rambling on about how great Motorpsycho is and someone would say that the singer can't sing I wouldn't try and defend them just because I like them. I know Motorpsycho are far, far from the best singers. If someone would say Pearl Jam isn't quite as inventive as Bowie was, I would have to agree. Eventhough I love Pearl Jam. It seems rather silly to claim Pearl Jam is more inventive than Bowie was.

Likewise it seems rather silly to think Bowie had a better voice than Chris Cornell did. You say Bowie is more interesting. I guess that's an open door. Interesting is putting it mildly. But as a mucisian I feel it's despite his voice that he is an icon. Where Cornell seems so great in large part due to his voice.

If your friend thinks that Bowie's voice is definitively the best voice out there, then that's what she thinks. I don't think she needs to be "brought down to Earth". As far as she is concerned, his voice is Bowie's strongest point... I don't even think she's all that off-base. A "great voice" can have all kinds of different qualities. Some people think Chris Cornell's voice absolutely sucks, so.... As for this "arrogance" you're talking about... I dunno, I just don't see it that way at all, or, if the arrogance must be present in this conversation, I can't say you're showing any less than anyone else in this scenario, no offense.

2-feign-reluctance · April 2018

tempo_n_groove said:

I do not get Bowie. Never had. Not my thing man...

jeffbr · April 2018

Replace Bowie with Vedder in the original post. One could see why a Bowie fan might feel the desire to defend their favorite singer. I'm sure there are fans here who do feel that Ed is the best rock singer out there.

I can't see why Vedder is that great. I think he is OK, but not the absolute best.
I often get the feeling that I am supposed to feel Vedder is the summit. An obvious point of critique for me would be his singing.
To me it seems plain to see-hear that there are better voices in rock music than Vedder is.
I mentioned this to a friend of mine which has a wide range of music but is also a Vedder fan amongst a few others.
There was no discussion possible. Saying there where better singers was equal to not being educated enough.
Although I do see what Vedder has to set him apart or make him pop out to someone. I can´t see why he should be the standard of things.
In my opinion Chris Cornell is a better singer with a greater voice and range than Vedder is.

PJ_Soul · April 2018

jeffbr said:

Replace Bowie with Vedder in the original post. One could see why a Bowie fan might feel the desire to defend their favorite singer. I'm sure there are fans here who do feel that Ed is the best rock singer out there.

I can't see why Vedder is that great. I think he is OK, but not the absolute best.
I often get the feeling that I am supposed to feel Vedder is the summit. An obvious point of critique for me would be his singing.
To me it seems plain to see-hear that there are better voices in rock music than Vedder is.
I mentioned this to a friend of mine which has a wide range of music but is also a Vedder fan amongst a few others.
There was no discussion possible. Saying there where better singers was equal to not being educated enough.
Although I do see what Vedder has to set him apart or make him pop out to someone. I can´t see why he should be the standard of things.
In my opinion Chris Cornell is a better singer with a greater voice and range than Vedder is.

I actually suddenly sympathize with the post a lot more after your edit, haha!

JH6056 · April 2018

PJ_Soul said:

karmadefect said:

PJ_Soul said:

It's all subjective no matter how you look at is, so there probably isn't much point in overthinking this one. People can go right ahead and think that Justin Beiber is the best singer of all time for all I care, and I wouldn't blame them for thinking they totally know what they're talking about, because to them, it's true, which makes them right. That's their truth. I simply wouldn't agree. I've got my own truth as far as who the best singers/artists are (Bowie was amazing btw. I prefer Bowie to Cornell personally - Bowie was just so much more interesting, as much as I liked Cornell as well. But I don't expect anyone else to give a crap! ).

I understand what you say. I don't mind my friend liking Bowie. I mind the arrogance alot of Bowie fans I know seem to have.
I mentioned Bowie's voice because I thought my friend would say Yeah you are right that isn't Bowies strongest point.I just didn't expect her to put Bowie on such a height that noone could hold a candle to him in any regard. I thought mentioning Bowies voice would bring her down to earth.

For instance if I would be rambling on about how great Motorpsycho is and someone would say that the singer can't sing I wouldn't try and defend them just because I like them. I know Motorpsycho are far, far from the best singers. If someone would say Pearl Jam isn't quite as inventive as Bowie was, I would have to agree. Eventhough I love Pearl Jam. It seems rather silly to claim Pearl Jam is more inventive than Bowie was.

Likewise it seems rather silly to think Bowie had a better voice than Chris Cornell did. You say Bowie is more interesting. I guess that's an open door. Interesting is putting it mildly. But as a mucisian I feel it's despite his voice that he is an icon. Where Cornell seems so great in large part due to his voice.

If your friend thinks that Bowie's voice is definitively the best voice out there, then that's what she thinks. I don't think she needs to be "brought down to Earth". As far as she is concerned, his voice is Bowie's strongest point... I don't even think she's all that off-base. A "great voice" can have all kinds of different qualities. Some people think Chris Cornell's voice absolutely sucks, so.... As for this "arrogance" you're talking about... I dunno, I just don't see it that way at all, or, if the arrogance must be present in this conversation, I can't say you're showing any less than anyone else in this scenario, no offense.

Yes, this! And Karmadefect, if you're not sure it's important to your friend you're REALLY putting a lot of effort into proving her wrong, especially if you're the only one who really cares about this!