Fracknation - a response to the Gasland documentaries we all know

evsgjamm

If you have the Sun News Network, tune in now to watch a 2 hour documentary / movie called Fracknation. It's in reply to the Gasland documentaries from a couple years back.

If you don't have the SNN, you can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1TKVRRhsGo

rgambs

Damn, I would like to see some transcripts, I live in fracktown and I'd like to hear what this has to say... The industry itself shows rates of failure in cement casings to be 5% at the time of completion and up to 30% over lifetime...
Any excerpts out there?

rgambs

I will get it on netflix before i judge too much. Wikipedia says it was funded by kickstarter... Sounds like a good way to get industry backing anonymously lol.
Doesn't matter, I will trust the hydrologic scientists that are peer-reviewed and not industry employed. :-)

evsgjamm

Sounds good rgambs: now can you please hurry up and make a wicked 1000th post!!!!!

rgambs

Hahaha thank you very much for pointing that out! I wasn't watching, I put it in the lounge car...seemed like the right place for it! Cheers!

evsgjamm

Well placed. Cheers accepted. Cheers given back.

brianlux

:-D

evsgjamm

brianlux (and everyone in favor of the block letter poster), we are dependent on the energy produced from oil & gas production. How is shutting off the gas into your building going to do you any good?

brianlux

evsgjamm said:

brianlux (and everyone in favor of the block letter poster), we are dependent on the energy produced from oil & gas production. How is shutting off the gas into your building going to do you any good?

Several ways including: First of all, obviously, by reducing our dependence on oil and gas and then by reducing energy consumption, driving less, driving cars that get good MPG's, going solar, using passive solar, reducing consumption of non-essential goods, increase recycling, etc, etc. You've heard me say this all before. Why do always strive to continue an unsustainable life style that destroys our land base, speeds up species extinctions, alter the climate, pollutes the environment and feeds the corporate fat cats rather than do what is more sensible and good for us and the rest of life on the planet? I don't understand that.


Besides,fracking is a very short-term and hazardous solution to a very long term problem.

brianlux

PS, you do realize Fracknation was funded primarily by people seeking pro-industry propaganda, right?

evsgjamm

This will go sour very quickly unless we agree on one thing. And that is that we simply disagree. We are too hard-headed and stubborn to change one another's viewpoints and it's best if we keep the proverbial flame away from the stope top so as to prevent our kettle's from boiling over. I'm just bringing this film to the attention of those who may want to see it. I watched the Gaslands, I enjoyed the Gaslands, but I don't entirely agree with them. I fully support wind, solar, bio and other new energies being developed, but I'm also all for oil & gas production and R&D as I see the positives of how its been a major factor in the development of first world countries.

rgambs

evsgjamm said:

brianlux (and everyone in favor of the block letter poster), we are dependent on the energy produced from oil & gas production. How is shutting off the gas into your building going to do you any good?

We could make the frackers abide by the existing environmental regulations. That would be a nice compromise.

rgambs

Then, when the cost of extraction limits profitability, the billions in subsidies they get will actually make sense!
What is your take on the exportation of LNG? World economists say it will drive the price of NG in the US to double at least...all that money going into the same filthy rich hands, and us left with poisoned water and air. If you doubt that it is a heavy pollution source, you need to put down the documentaries and do some research into hydrology, and study the issue from a scientific perspective.

evsgjamm

My views on it are very simple. Fracking (at least in Canada) and I hope in the U.S. and elsewhere can't occur without strict environmental policies in place. Permits must be approved from an array of companies, years in advance, before the drilling even occurs. I'm also all for trading resources across nations, as long as those nations have strict environmental standards that are met before pipelines are put in place. I'm all for pipelines as long as communities are consulted and informed and all safety permits and environmental policies are met. I believe prices of all of our commodities will continue to rise and I can only go by history and say, wages in the workplace will also continue to rise. Education will (and should) continue to improve (I simply mean people should keep seeking university degrees, college diplomas, tech certificates etc.)
The claims of polluted air we breathe due to natural gas production: please post some links to the studies already done. I've heard lots about it but haven't seen any of the publications with chemical analyses, citing credible references etc.

rgambs

In the United States, exactly as Gasland portrayed it, fracking is exempt from the Clean Air and Water Acts. The "Haliburton loophole".

rgambs

evsgjamm said:

My views on it are very simple. Fracking (at least in Canada) and I hope in the U.S. and elsewhere can't occur without strict environmental policies in place. Permits must be approved from an array of companies, years in advance, before the drilling even occurs. I'm also all for trading resources across nations, as long as those nations have strict environmental standards that are met before pipelines are put in place. I'm all for pipelines as long as communities are consulted and informed and all safety permits and environmental policies are met. I believe prices of all of our commodities will continue to rise and I can only go by history and say, wages in the workplace will also continue to rise. Education will (and should) continue to improve (I simply mean people should keep seeking university degrees, college diplomas, tech certificates etc.)
The claims of polluted air we breathe due to natural gas production: please post some links to the studies already done. I've heard lots about it but haven't seen any of the publications with chemical analyses, citing credible references etc.

There is a huge data gap which is intentionally supported by the industry. They don't want independent analysis of their operations and so far have been largely successful in keeping science out of the process. How would a proper study be produced when they are not even legally required to disclose the chemicals they are using? Even after a spill they are allowed to keep the info concealed, and in Pennsylvania they aren't even required to disclose the site of the spill!
Data gap: http://www.climatecentral.org/news/scientists-call-for-more-fracking-data-transparency-16816

ikiT

All of energy production is completely corrupt, extraction, distribution, all of it. I live close to Cove Point, in Maryland the "proposed" site (meaning it's already going to be rubber stamp approved by a bought and paid for regulatory agency....) where these exports for all of the East Coast are going to take place from.

Finding a better way of getting that shit out of the ground and finding viable alternatives to creating electricity HAS to become part of a smart, realistic US Energy Policy that isn't dictated by the corporate energy lobby and multi national conglomerates.

Get on board here. http://chesapeakeclimate.org/maryland/covepoint/

Fracknation is complete bullshit from the first frame to the last. Complete bullshit.

Josh Fox told the truth.

evsgjamm

We're getting it out of the ground just fine here in Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. I'm sure it's getting out of the ground just fine elsewhere.
I don't think Josh Fox did tell the truth and I think Phelim McAleer exposed his lies pretty clearly. I believe the water on those people's property in the films is iron rich and contains many naturally occurring chemicals from mineralization. Depending on how the aquifer is producing, some days will be worse than others. Has nothing to do with fracking, but rather well placement into aquifers (perhaps unsafe at times, as indicated by some of their results one day vs another day.)

My stance on The Halliburton Loophole - the water used in fracking has no interaction with clean drinking water from our water table. The chemicals in fracking: Baker Hughes is setting the stage (pun not intended): Baker Hughes will disclose a list of all the chemical constituents of the products used and their maximum concentrations through the industry-maintained website fracfocus.org.
My stance on climate change, for what its worth (I'm projecting into the future discussion of this thread already) - It's changing. Our industrialized way of life won't stop the Earth from its natural cycles.

rgambs

evsgjamm said:

We're getting it out of the ground just fine here in Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. I'm sure it's getting out of the ground just fine elsewhere.
I don't think Josh Fox did tell the truth and I think Phelim McAleer exposed his lies pretty clearly. I believe the water on those people's property in the films is iron rich and contains many naturally occurring chemicals from mineralization. Depending on how the aquifer is producing, some days will be worse than others. Has nothing to do with fracking, but rather well placement into naturally occuring (perhaps unsafe) water.

My stance on The Halliburton Loophole - the water used in fracking has no interaction with clean drinking water from our water table. The chemicals in fracking: Baker Hughes is setting the stage (pun not intended): Baker Hughes will disclose a list of all the chemical constituents of the products used and their maximum concentrations through the industry-maintained website fracfocus.org.
My stance on climate change, for what its worth (I'm projecting into the future discussion of this thread already) - It's changing. Our industrialized way of life won't stop the Earth from its natural cycles.

You are flouting all the laws of science that I can think of. Iron rich water is not at all comparable to water that shows Benzenes and Tuolene in the well... I suppose you think that is naturally occurring?


"the water used in fracking has no interaction with clean drinking water from our water table."
This is the worst kind of propaganda statement. The drilling goes far deeper than the water table so anything pumped down there will migrate UPWARDLY due to the pressures involved if it finds a fissure to migrate in. The cement casing that protects the pipe of the vertical shaft fails regularly, this is known by all and is an issue that has existed for the life of natural gas drilling. That's a guarantee of pollution in a small percentage of cases.

"It's changing. Our industrialized way of life won't stop the Earth from its natural cycles"
Again, this is flouting pretty basic science. There's not much more to say, stances are opinions and opinions don't matter when it comes to basic science.

ikiT

Phelim McAleer is a well known climate change denier/propaganda maker who has been bought and paid for by big energy on other "documentary" projects, not just this P.O.C.
Fracknation was released at the same time the pretty decent Hollywood anti-frack Matt Damon/ John Krasinski/Frances McDormand/Gus Van Sant film Promised Land.

ikiT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

evsgjamm

Fracking is fine and it didn't put benzene in the water. Benzene is formed through natural processes, such as volcanoes and forest fires.
The cycles of Earth are fine and our little existence here isn't going to disrupt her cycles.
We are fine but we sure know how to make a mess out there. We also know how to clean them up.
We've got lots to discuss here and I'll catch up with that later. I just finished working the night shift and I am off to get some rest.

rgambs

evsgjamm said:

Fracking is fine and it didn't put benzene in the water. Benzene is formed through natural processes, such as volcanoes and forest fires.
The cycles of Earth are fine and our little existence here isn't going to disrupt her cycles.
We are fine but we sure know how to make a mess out there. We also know how to clean them up.
We've got lots to discuss here and I'll catch up with that later. I just finished working the night shift and I am off to get some rest.

"Our little existence". You act like the planet is an infinite system. There are 7 billion of us. We have oxygen because bacteria fundamentally altered cycles on Earth. Cyanobacteria, their little existence created the atmosphere we enjoy. The carbon we are spitting is carbon that was sequestered from an inhospitable atmosphere that lead to our present comfort. We are spewing carbon dioxide at a planet changing level... Those sorts of forces can't be minimized as easily as you want.

brianlux

evsgjamm said:

This will go sour very quickly unless we agree on one thing. And that is that we simply disagree. We are too hard-headed and stubborn to change one another's viewpoints and it's best if we keep the proverbial flame away from the stope top so as to prevent our kettle's from boiling over. I'm just bringing this film to the attention of those who may want to see it. I watched the Gaslands, I enjoyed the Gaslands, but I don't entirely agree with them. I fully support wind, solar, bio and other new energies being developed, but I'm also all for oil & gas production and R&D as I see the positives of how its been a major factor in the development of first world countries.

Just saying "let's agree to disagree" pretty much shuts down the discussion for me because I think you are basically asking me to not post here. You know exactly what I believe think and feel about fracking and I'm guessing anyone else reading this knows that as well: that fracking is a part of an industry that has no concern for the long-term welfare of people, other life and the planet itself. I'll just say that and leave now.

evsgjamm

Our little existence: I'm of the belief that large earth processes sculpt our planet on a scale that makes our existence insignificant to the ongoing life of the planet. I disagree with the thought that we are changing the climate. The Earth's climate changes because of vast internal and external forces. Humans are a virus that the Earth will eventually shake with ease.
brianlux, I realize I snuffed out the flame of your poster. It appeared to shout at the thread.

brianlux

evsgjamm said:

Our little existence: I'm of the belief that large earth processes sculpt our planet on a scale that makes our existence insignificant to the ongoing life of the planet. I disagree with the thought that we are changing the climate. The Earth's climate changes because of vast internal and external forces. Humans are a virus that the Earth will eventually shake with ease.
brianlux, I realize I snuffed out the flame of your poster. It appeared to shout at the thread.

No worries- I totally agree. I have a little coaster sized version of it that I keep on the dashboard of my Pri... er, um...vehicle hahaha... So far no stones thrown through the windshield. But you're right, that image I copied is too big and obnoxious and "In your face". Sorry about that. I'll remove it. :-)

rgambs

evsgjamm said:

Our little existence: I'm of the belief that large earth processes sculpt our planet on a scale that makes our existence insignificant to the ongoing life of the planet. I disagree with the thought that we are changing the climate. The Earth's climate changes because of vast internal and external forces. Humans are a virus that the Earth will eventually shake with ease.
brianlux, I realize I snuffed out the flame of your poster. It appeared to shout at the thread.

We are large earth process engineers bonafide when it comes to exploiting the entire Carboniferous period in a few generations.
I guess the only thing I can say is that opinions and beliefs are irrelevant when it comes to science. She's a stone cold bitch and she rolls on through whatever people believe at the moment. It's evolution baby!

polaris_x

perhaps some more canadians would be better informed about the impacts of the oil and gas industry if:
* the conservatives were not muzzling scientists
* the conservatives would fund the programs needed to study this properly
* the conservatives were not in bed with the companies and rendering our regulatory institutions useless

whether it's the tar sands, fracking or mining - most people have no clue about the facts ... basing their opinion on the myth of its function to the economy is what allows these corporations to get away with it ...

you know what else is good for the economy? WAR ... so, let's just continue to perpetuate the innocent loss of lives and suffering ... because our continued support of this most fraudulent of industries has the same consequences ...

rgambs

I watched Fracknation last night. I wasn't impressed. The entire film is all about smearing Josh Fox and Gasland...which wasn't a very good documentary itself. Ad hominem attacks and sentimental interviews...bleh. There was not a shred of data presented, only a whitewashing of the issues. It made a ton of false assumptions...the big one was that because methane in wells existed before fracking, it can't be a result of fracking. A little research shows that he has also made industry supporting docs for mining and climate change denial.
I loved the "frackpads" that they showed, all paved and clean, not a hint of mud lol

ikiT

rgambs said:

There was not a shred of data presented, only a whitewashing of the issues. It made a ton of false assumptions...

Exactly.

brianlux

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass here, but a couple of cleverly crafted documentaries (in this case, one pro, one con) do not necessarily provide the kind of information necessary to formulate a clear understanding and opinion about an important subject like this one. Read widely, read often and think critically is my advice.