We do polaris. We do understand that alcohol may have had it's part to play in this crime. And I'm sure the victim's parents will have had discussions with her. And I'm sure she has more than regretted her few vodkas.
But that is not the lesson or the crime.
But.... whether dead drunk or not, it is the guys that bear the full responsibility for the crime. Just like it will be the robber/mugger that will bear the full responsibility of his crime should he/she steal the wallet of some dead drunk person on the sidewalk.
Drinking is a personal choice, maybe not the right one. Getting raped or robbed is not the drunk's personal choice, it is the criminal's.
Whatever state you are in, you have the right not to be victimised because of this state (I know... a bit utopic).
i think everyone get's the primary lesson ... but does everyone get everything else? ... judging by the responses to me - maybe not ...
...
Yes... we do. Do not get yourself in situations where people can commit crimes against you.
...
Example, tha yyoung woman that was raped by Mike Tyson should have known what she was getting into, right?
No. Because she brought along her camera and thought he was going to take her out to a fancy restaurant and treat her like a little princess, not to be attacked by a human pitbull.
Was she stupid... mabe. Probably naive is a better description. But she has no role in what actually happened to her.
Neither did this girl. She didn't go out that night to get treated the way she did. Stupid? Probably. But, stupidity is not a crime.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
soo - is the lesson then to continue to get inebriated to the point of being unconscious and that's ok!?? ... is that what you would have learned here? ... .
No... the lesson here is that you do not rape a girl, humiliate her, film it, or participate in any other way, finding it the 'fun' thing to do, especially if the victim cannot 'fight' back. You learn that if you commit such an despicable act, you will be punished.
THAT is the primary lesson.
We do not know what these guys would have done if she had not been drunk. They may have drugged her, hit her, one or two attacking whilst others holding down? We don't know. RAPE is the issue.
Responsible intake of alcohol is another issue. Yes, one expose's oneself more to criminal acts perpetuated by others onto one's self but the ultimate responsibility lies with the cowardly criminal.
...
Exactly. The lesson to be learned is that you need to get your moral compass pointing in the right direction.
The right thing to do would have been to dump her off at her front door... ring the doorbell... and run like Hell.
The right thing for the bystanders would be to say something... or DO something. That 'something' is something other than pulling out your phone to take a picture to update your Facebook Status.
I agree with you guys, but there's been studies on human behavior where it isn't likely that, with a group of people in the vicinity of a crime being committed, one person will stand out among the others and detest what is going on and attempt to save the victim. Herd behavior at its worst.
We do polaris. We do understand that alcohol may have had it's part to play in this crime. And I'm sure the victim's parents will have had discussions with her. And I'm sure she has more than regretted her few vodkas.
But that is not the lesson or the crime.
But.... whether dead drunk or not, it is the guys that bear the full responsibility for the crime. Just like it will be the robber/mugger that will bear the full responsibility of his crime should he/she steal the wallet of some dead drunk person on the sidewalk.
Drinking is a personal choice, maybe not the right one. Getting raped or robbed is not the drunk's personal choice, it is the criminal's.
Whatever state you are in, you have the right not to be victimised because of this state (I know... a bit utopic).
thank you for the sanity in what has turned into crazy bullshit rationalizations for rape
I agree with you guys, but there's been studies on human behavior where it isn't likely that, with a group of people in the vicinity of a crime being committed, one person will stand out among the others and detest what is going on and attempt to save the victim. Herd behavior at its worst.
...
I've seen those studies and agree.
It does take courage and we prove to ourselves time after time that we are not courageous.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with you guys, but there's been studies on human behavior where it isn't likely that, with a group of people in the vicinity of a crime being committed, one person will stand out among the others and detest what is going on and attempt to save the victim. Herd behavior at its worst.
...
I've seen those studies and agree.
It does take courage and we prove to ourselves time after time that ware are not courageous.
That said, I do think the group voyeurs with their cameras should be punished.
We do polaris. We do understand that alcohol may have had it's part to play in this crime. And I'm sure the victim's parents will have had discussions with her. And I'm sure she has more than regretted her few vodkas.
But that is not the lesson or the crime.
But.... whether dead drunk or not, it is the guys that bear the full responsibility for the crime. Just like it will be the robber/mugger that will bear the full responsibility of his crime should he/she steal the wallet of some dead drunk person on the sidewalk.
Drinking is a personal choice, maybe not the right one. Getting raped or robbed is not the drunk's personal choice, it is the criminal's.
Whatever state you are in, you have the right not to be victimised because of this state (I know... a bit utopic).
well ... i think i stated a bunch of times that all these kids should be held fully accountable ... but my point is simply that it's easy for us to want to just put all the blame on the guilty and wash our hands of it ... my goal should be the same as everyone's ... a society where 1 in 5 women aren't raped ... in order to get there we need to be honest with all the aspects of this issue ... from the sexualization of women to alcohol consumption to peer pressure to the overwhelming need for kids to want to fit in ... add the fact that most kids refused to talk ... it's the omerta and the notion that if you do talk - you are a snitch ... these are all things that have to be addressed if we want to eliminate rape ... ignoring these things does nothing of the sort ...
well ... i think i stated a bunch of times that all these kids should be held fully accountable ... but my point is simply that it's easy for us to want to just put all the blame on the guilty and wash our hands of it ... my goal should be the same as everyone's ... a society where 1 in 5 women aren't raped ... in order to get there we need to be honest with all the aspects of this issue ... from the sexualization of women to alcohol consumption to peer pressure to the overwhelming need for kids to want to fit in ... add the fact that most kids refused to talk ... it's the omerta and the notion that if you do talk - you are a snitch ... these are all things that have to be addressed if we want to eliminate rape ... ignoring these things does nothing of the sort ...
I totally agree with you, but I think an issue that should coincide with rape is athletic worship. Why do they seemingly go hand in hand? Do you think kids would have talked if the rapist was a dirtbag burnout? Because you know they aren't going to tell on the superstar football player...
I totally agree with you, but I think an issue that should coincide with rape is athletic worship. Why do they seemingly go hand in hand? Do you think kids would have talked if the rapist was a dirtbag burnout? Because you know they aren't going to tell on the superstar football player...
And then the whole drama defending the athetes...
thanks ... yes, add that to the myriad of conspiring circumstances that all needs to be addressed ...
Agree polaris that our society has a lot to account for but... you have been speaking of the victim as it was 'partly' her fault. NEVER does a victim of rape need to be blamed (even a little) - however she dresses, however much she drinks/does drugs, however much 'sexual' she is.
As we have seen, the media portrayed this young woman as the 'drunk girl/victim' (compared to the fine young men who raped her). There was no outrage for them.. just trying to 'understand' their circumstances...
well ... i think i stated a bunch of times that all these kids should be held fully accountable ... but my point is simply that it's easy for us to want to just put all the blame on the guilty and wash our hands of it ... my goal should be the same as everyone's ... a society where 1 in 5 women aren't raped ... in order to get there we need to be honest with all the aspects of this issue ... from the sexualization of women to alcohol consumption to peer pressure to the overwhelming need for kids to want to fit in ... add the fact that most kids refused to talk ... it's the omerta and the notion that if you do talk - you are a snitch ... these are all things that have to be addressed if we want to eliminate rape ... ignoring these things does nothing of the sort ...
...
I totally get what you are saying... there are a lot of variables that come into play. Like, if she were not in this equation or if she was not so drunk, none of this would have happened. That is true.
The problem is, these two variables did exist... she was there and she was drunk. Those are the only two things she did. She probably had no intention for the outcome... and probably just wanted to go out and party with her other schoolmates.
The issue and the lesson to be learned is that even if someone is stupid and placed temselves in a precarious situation, we should not take advantage of them, regardless of our tempations. We are supposed to be better than that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Agree polaris that our society has a lot to account for but... you have been speaking of the victim as it was 'partly' her fault. NEVER does a victim of rape need to be blamed (even a little) - however she dresses, however much she drinks/does drugs, however much 'sexual' she is.
As we have seen, the media portrayed this young woman as the 'drunk girl/victim' (compared to the fine young men who raped her). There was no outrage for them.. just trying to 'understand' their circumstances...
let me ask you this ... if you get inebriated and pass out unconscious in a public space and someone robs you ... are you to be held for any accountability?
The issue and the lesson to be learned is that even if someone is stupid and placed temselves in a precarious situation, we should not take advantage of them, regardless of our tempations. We are supposed to be better than that.
we ARE supposed to be better than that ... but WE are not ... does it make it right - hell no ... we all want the same thing here ... all i'm trying to say is we can't get there if we don't look at the bigger picture ...
Agree polaris that our society has a lot to account for but... you have been speaking of the victim as it was 'partly' her fault. NEVER does a victim of rape need to be blamed (even a little) - however she dresses, however much she drinks/does drugs, however much 'sexual' she is.
As we have seen, the media portrayed this young woman as the 'drunk girl/victim' (compared to the fine young men who raped her). There was no outrage for them.. just trying to 'understand' their circumstances...
let me ask you this ... if you get inebriated and pass out unconscious in a public space and someone robs you ... are you to be held for any accountability?
First - that has never happened and will never happen. BUT... for the sake of argument - should it happen, no. Full accountability is on the criminal and will always be. AND, I would NEVER say to anyone 'your fault you got raped/robbed/mugged, etc. - you got yourself in this situation being drunk'.
But why do you keep on diverging from rape to getting your wallet/purse stolen? Is this trying to bring both at the same level of trauma for the victim? A very personal, invasive crime about power and control and another personal (of course) crime but about money and greed?
First - that has never happened and will never happen. BUT... for the sake of argument - should it happen, no. Full accountability is on the criminal and will always be. AND, I would NEVER say to anyone 'your fault you got raped/robbed/mugged, etc. - you got yourself in this situation being drunk'.
But why do you keep on diverging from rape to getting your wallet/purse stolen? Is this trying to bring both at the same level of trauma for the victim? A very personal, invasive crime about power and control and another personal (of course) crime but about money and greed?
well ... i would disagree ... pretty much everyone i know would say - it's not right you got robbed but dude - you put yourself in a bad situation ... and so, if you do not hold yourself not even one iota responsible ... then it pretty much says that you believe you can put yourself in any situation and that it is never any way your fault ...
a crime is a crime ... why must we differentiate it? ... are we saying one is more acceptable than the other?
then it pretty much says that you believe you can put yourself in any situation and that it is never any way your fault ...
Not saying that. There are a lot of situations you can put yourself in and it's your fault and should get your just deserts. Being incapacitated and being raped, filmed, humiliated, dehumanised, treated like shit by a bunch of guys is not one of them.
A victim of crime is not at fault, the perpetrator of the crime is.
a crime is a crime ... why must we differentiate it? ... are we saying one is more acceptable than the other?
Yes, of course. But you seem to be minimising the trauma of this rape victim and the very vile actions of these two guys and the group of people with them by bringing up the 'robbery' thing every time.
Yes, of course. But you seem to be minimising the trauma of this rape victim and the very vile actions of these two guys and the group of people with them by bringing up the 'robbery' thing every time.
no ... by not solely focusing on these guys doesn't mean i'm trying to minimize the impact to the victim ... that is simply your projection of our discussion ...
all i know is - if I knowingly put myself in a bad situation and something happens to me - i'm gonna look at my own actions ...
I'm a little curious, polaris. Being intoxicated supposedly puts some of the responsibility on the victim. What about the inverse? The rapists were intoxicated as well. Does that make them less culpable? Would their crime be worse if they'd been sober while committing it?
It's already been pointed out that we all do stupid things. 16 year olds with little or no experience with alcohol might easily drink to excess (anybody want to fess up?), without even realizing how vulnerable it makes them. We all do stupid things but rarely do we experience serious consequences. This young woman is one of those exceptions.
While I think I understand the point you're trying to make, as a woman I'm just very tired of hearing all the things women must do so they won't be raped. They can't drink on a date. They can't accept a ride from a casual acquaintance. They can't go out at night alone. When they walk to their car, they have to look all around the car, under the car, and in the back seat before getting in. And so on. If we fail to do any of these and a number of other things, we may be raped. Why is it always on the victim not to let it happen?
I wish prominent men, especially athletes, were making an effort to say that violence against others is bad. Rape is bad. Real men don't hit their girlfriends. And it's not bad because you might go to jail. You are responsible for your own actions and if you hurt other people, you deserve punishment.
Ok, the girl probably thought she was going out for a good time with friends drinking. This is not a likely "putting yourself in a bad situation". Usually, you can trust your classmates and friends. She did not likely put herself in a bad situation, nor would you think you're putting yourself in a bad situation while partying with friends...
I'm a little curious, polaris. Being intoxicated supposedly puts some of the responsibility on the victim. What about the inverse? The rapists were intoxicated as well. Does that make them less culpable? Would their crime be worse if they'd been sober while committing it?
It's already been pointed out that we all do stupid things. 16 year olds with little or no experience with alcohol might easily drink to excess (anybody want to fess up?), without even realizing how vulnerable it makes them. We all do stupid things but rarely do we experience serious consequences. This young woman is one of those exceptions.
While I think I understand the point you're trying to make, as a woman I'm just very tired of hearing all the things women must do so they won't be raped. They can't drink on a date. They can't accept a ride from a casual acquaintance. They can't go out at night alone. When they walk to their car, they have to look all around the car, under the car, and in the back seat before getting in. And so on. If we fail to do any of these and a number of other things, we may be raped. Why is it always on the victim not to let it happen?
I wish prominent men, especially athletes, were making an effort to say that violence against others is bad. Rape is bad. Real men don't hit their girlfriends. And it's not bad because you might go to jail. You are responsible for your own actions and if you hurt other people, you deserve punishment.
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,625
let me ask you this ... if you get inebriated and pass out unconscious in a public space and someone robs you ... are you to be held for any accountability?
If we separate the crime that occurred and just asked this question as a stand alone I think the answer that I have is that Yes, the person should know not to put themselves in a nasty situation. But then what happens if the person is ignorant of the risk they put themselves in? First time drinking? (Or the first time to excess?) Walking in a neighborhood in many of our cities can easily see you go from 'OK' to "what the hell are you doing walking alone is this neighborhood?" within a few blocks.
I drink to great excess occasionally. I do this with my friends and am protected as we are all relatively good, moral adults. This is not the same thing as a teenager out trying to learn how to party or have a good time in high school.
Bottom line is that society is filled with fucking dirtbags that should be punished.
You try to give us a different angle to look at and I can appreciate that. However, the moral thing and the straight up "SHOULD" of your example is that seeing someone passed out in a public place should make any of us stop and see if the person is OK, call for help, etc. Not to have a segment of our population view the person as an easy target. (I know that is not the reality of how things are but that is what should happen.)
A Doctor is compelled to stop and help -- we all should take that damn oath. (At the same time I was at the Super Bowl and saw a who was laying on his side passed out on my way out and I didnt stop and call for a cop to help him. I thought about that on the flight home and how much of a mistake that was. I hope nothing happened to him -- there were people and police all around. Were it a young girl I would stop 100 out of 100 times....and I should have stopped for this man.
I wish prominent men, especially athletes, were making an effort to say that violence against others is bad. Rape is bad. Real men don't hit their girlfriends. And it's not bad because you might go to jail. You are responsible for your own actions and if you hurt other people, you deserve punishment.
Who Princess, love your post. The issue with this is that the athlete that stood up and said this would cause all sorts of strife on his own team because seemingly 25% of these guys are total dirtballs.
all i know is - if I knowingly put myself in a bad situation and something happens to me - i'm gonna look at my own actions ...
I guess if being with your mates and having a drink or two in what you thought would have been a safe-ish environment is putting yourself in a bad situation.....
But I guess this is going in circles... Let me give you a final example:
Outcome - guy (for the sake of this example), drunk, no wallet, on the bank of the river trying to get himself out.... What happened? Who's fault?
Scenario 1 - guy was drunk, lost his wallet (maybe thinking he had put it in his pocket but left it at the bar), was walking home along the river, lost his balance due to being totally drunk and fell in. Bad situation, HIS responsibility - no third party involved
Scenario 2 - same guy drunk, walking home along the river, gets mugged with wallet stolen and gets pushed in the river. Bad situation - MUGGER'S responsibility - third party involved.
Not sure if you see the difference in where I see one fully taking responsibility for his actions and where the criminal is to be at fault.
Yes, as a society we need to change our perceptions, etc. but when you are saying that the victim of these rapists is also at fault inferring that if she hadn't been drinking, the guys would have never touched her, is minimising her trauma and really not helping the cause of victims. Inferring that the onus was on her to 'behave'...
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
While I think I understand the point you're trying to make, as a woman I'm just very tired of hearing all the things women must do so they won't be raped. They can't drink on a date. They can't accept a ride from a casual acquaintance. They can't go out at night alone. When they walk to their car, they have to look all around the car, under the car, and in the back seat before getting in. And so on. If we fail to do any of these and a number of other things, we may be raped. Why is it always on the victim not to let it happen?
Don't forget the "oh, it's just part of life" rhetoric some of us are given.
Anyway, bravo! I'd applaud this even if I weren't a woman.
And to polaris, going by your past posts, I don't think you're coming from a blind spot here. I - and I guess others as well - come from a different perspective - me, I can't help but do so - though I can see the point you're trying to make.
ok ... one thing i will agree on is we are indeed going in circles ... so, i'll just say this last thing ...
* i'm sorry that most of you do not realize that i'm not saying it is her fault and that there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for the people involved in this affair ... i'm not really sure i can say it anymore clearer - it just seems we are so self-absorbed with wanting to shelter the victim and cast everyone else into the fire ... it's akin to our discussions on mental illness and crimes ... there is a knee-jerk reaction to everything
* all i am trying to do is broaden the discussion ... we can continue to beat the drums associated with rape but yet the stats of this act are not improving ... in fact, it is getting worse ... it's not just about the same old things we talk about ... there is so much more ...
* do we live in a world without consequence!? ... i don't think so ... sure, it would be great if people could go out and let themselves go and hope their friends are there for them ... in this particular case - her friends were there for her but she chose to ignore them ... whatever, the case - this isn't about blaming her ... it's about acknowledging that if we make bad decisions - bad things can happen ... and if you don't think she made multiple bad decisions that night ... then i would simply say i respectfully disagree ...
all i know is - i don't tell all my close female friends to be careful because i want them to live in fear - i do so because i don't want anything bad to happen to them ... if you want to trade that risk away for a few extra drinks and a bigger buzz ... by all means ... you should be protected from shittiness but in reality we aren't ...
You try to give us a different angle to look at and I can appreciate that. However, the moral thing and the straight up "SHOULD" of your example is that seeing someone passed out in a public place should make any of us stop and see if the person is OK, call for help, etc. Not to have a segment of our population view the person as an easy target. (I know that is not the reality of how things are but that is what should happen.)
I'd like to say I was on the receiving end of this after a World Series game here in Toronto. We went at it all day and throughout the game at the stadium. Well to say I was ripped would be an understatement. I lost my friends and got as far as some benches outside the stadium and found that an appealing spot for a drunk nap. Next thing I know I'm being shaken and a male voice saying" are you okay, man?" Along with a female voice saying, "just leave him alone, why bother?". It happened to be two couples and the guys asked if I had money for a cab, carried (sort of) me to the street, hailed a cab, made sure I gave some address, closed the door and wished me luck. I can say if that was a police officer, I would have been in the drunk tank for sure.
So there are people who don't mind helping out there. But I find there are less and less everyday.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
And which 'friends'? The ones who raped her? The ones who filmed? Or maybe the ones who stood by and joked or did nothing?
Did the victim 'ignore' them because she was passed out?
no ... two "former" friends who testified ... said that they pleaded for her to stop drinking and asked her to follow them and not go with those boys ... but she ignored them ...
Comments
But that is not the lesson or the crime.
But.... whether dead drunk or not, it is the guys that bear the full responsibility for the crime. Just like it will be the robber/mugger that will bear the full responsibility of his crime should he/she steal the wallet of some dead drunk person on the sidewalk.
Drinking is a personal choice, maybe not the right one. Getting raped or robbed is not the drunk's personal choice, it is the criminal's.
Whatever state you are in, you have the right not to be victimised because of this state (I know... a bit utopic).
Yes... we do. Do not get yourself in situations where people can commit crimes against you.
...
Example, tha yyoung woman that was raped by Mike Tyson should have known what she was getting into, right?
No. Because she brought along her camera and thought he was going to take her out to a fancy restaurant and treat her like a little princess, not to be attacked by a human pitbull.
Was she stupid... mabe. Probably naive is a better description. But she has no role in what actually happened to her.
Neither did this girl. She didn't go out that night to get treated the way she did. Stupid? Probably. But, stupidity is not a crime.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with you guys, but there's been studies on human behavior where it isn't likely that, with a group of people in the vicinity of a crime being committed, one person will stand out among the others and detest what is going on and attempt to save the victim. Herd behavior at its worst.
thank you for the sanity in what has turned into crazy bullshit rationalizations for rape
I've seen those studies and agree.
It does take courage and we prove to ourselves time after time that we are not courageous.
Hail, Hail!!!
That said, I do think the group voyeurs with their cameras should be punished.
well ... i think i stated a bunch of times that all these kids should be held fully accountable ... but my point is simply that it's easy for us to want to just put all the blame on the guilty and wash our hands of it ... my goal should be the same as everyone's ... a society where 1 in 5 women aren't raped ... in order to get there we need to be honest with all the aspects of this issue ... from the sexualization of women to alcohol consumption to peer pressure to the overwhelming need for kids to want to fit in ... add the fact that most kids refused to talk ... it's the omerta and the notion that if you do talk - you are a snitch ... these are all things that have to be addressed if we want to eliminate rape ... ignoring these things does nothing of the sort ...
:fp:
it's no wonder these don't improve ... so sad ...
I totally agree with you, but I think an issue that should coincide with rape is athletic worship. Why do they seemingly go hand in hand? Do you think kids would have talked if the rapist was a dirtbag burnout? Because you know they aren't going to tell on the superstar football player...
And then the whole drama defending the athetes...
thanks ... yes, add that to the myriad of conspiring circumstances that all needs to be addressed ...
As we have seen, the media portrayed this young woman as the 'drunk girl/victim' (compared to the fine young men who raped her). There was no outrage for them.. just trying to 'understand' their circumstances...
A number of vile crimes 'excused' because of this. Not just rape...
An opinion...
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootbal ... ame-031813
I totally get what you are saying... there are a lot of variables that come into play. Like, if she were not in this equation or if she was not so drunk, none of this would have happened. That is true.
The problem is, these two variables did exist... she was there and she was drunk. Those are the only two things she did. She probably had no intention for the outcome... and probably just wanted to go out and party with her other schoolmates.
The issue and the lesson to be learned is that even if someone is stupid and placed temselves in a precarious situation, we should not take advantage of them, regardless of our tempations. We are supposed to be better than that.
Hail, Hail!!!
those who hurt her & those who did zero to protect her are going to have a shitty life.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
let me ask you this ... if you get inebriated and pass out unconscious in a public space and someone robs you ... are you to be held for any accountability?
we ARE supposed to be better than that ... but WE are not ... does it make it right - hell no ... we all want the same thing here ... all i'm trying to say is we can't get there if we don't look at the bigger picture ...
First - that has never happened and will never happen. BUT... for the sake of argument - should it happen, no. Full accountability is on the criminal and will always be. AND, I would NEVER say to anyone 'your fault you got raped/robbed/mugged, etc. - you got yourself in this situation being drunk'.
But why do you keep on diverging from rape to getting your wallet/purse stolen? Is this trying to bring both at the same level of trauma for the victim? A very personal, invasive crime about power and control and another personal (of course) crime but about money and greed?
well ... i would disagree ... pretty much everyone i know would say - it's not right you got robbed but dude - you put yourself in a bad situation ... and so, if you do not hold yourself not even one iota responsible ... then it pretty much says that you believe you can put yourself in any situation and that it is never any way your fault ...
a crime is a crime ... why must we differentiate it? ... are we saying one is more acceptable than the other?
Not saying that. There are a lot of situations you can put yourself in and it's your fault and should get your just deserts. Being incapacitated and being raped, filmed, humiliated, dehumanised, treated like shit by a bunch of guys is not one of them.
A victim of crime is not at fault, the perpetrator of the crime is.
Well.. I guess that's where we differ. Most people I know would be saying: "Bastards... are you OK? Did you get hurt?"
Yes, of course. But you seem to be minimising the trauma of this rape victim and the very vile actions of these two guys and the group of people with them by bringing up the 'robbery' thing every time.
no ... by not solely focusing on these guys doesn't mean i'm trying to minimize the impact to the victim ... that is simply your projection of our discussion ...
all i know is - if I knowingly put myself in a bad situation and something happens to me - i'm gonna look at my own actions ...
It's already been pointed out that we all do stupid things. 16 year olds with little or no experience with alcohol might easily drink to excess (anybody want to fess up?), without even realizing how vulnerable it makes them. We all do stupid things but rarely do we experience serious consequences. This young woman is one of those exceptions.
While I think I understand the point you're trying to make, as a woman I'm just very tired of hearing all the things women must do so they won't be raped. They can't drink on a date. They can't accept a ride from a casual acquaintance. They can't go out at night alone. When they walk to their car, they have to look all around the car, under the car, and in the back seat before getting in. And so on. If we fail to do any of these and a number of other things, we may be raped. Why is it always on the victim not to let it happen?
I wish prominent men, especially athletes, were making an effort to say that violence against others is bad. Rape is bad. Real men don't hit their girlfriends. And it's not bad because you might go to jail. You are responsible for your own actions and if you hurt other people, you deserve punishment.
If we separate the crime that occurred and just asked this question as a stand alone I think the answer that I have is that Yes, the person should know not to put themselves in a nasty situation. But then what happens if the person is ignorant of the risk they put themselves in? First time drinking? (Or the first time to excess?) Walking in a neighborhood in many of our cities can easily see you go from 'OK' to "what the hell are you doing walking alone is this neighborhood?" within a few blocks.
I drink to great excess occasionally. I do this with my friends and am protected as we are all relatively good, moral adults. This is not the same thing as a teenager out trying to learn how to party or have a good time in high school.
Bottom line is that society is filled with fucking dirtbags that should be punished.
You try to give us a different angle to look at and I can appreciate that. However, the moral thing and the straight up "SHOULD" of your example is that seeing someone passed out in a public place should make any of us stop and see if the person is OK, call for help, etc. Not to have a segment of our population view the person as an easy target. (I know that is not the reality of how things are but that is what should happen.)
A Doctor is compelled to stop and help -- we all should take that damn oath. (At the same time I was at the Super Bowl and saw a who was laying on his side passed out on my way out and I didnt stop and call for a cop to help him. I thought about that on the flight home and how much of a mistake that was. I hope nothing happened to him -- there were people and police all around. Were it a young girl I would stop 100 out of 100 times....and I should have stopped for this man.
Who Princess, love your post. The issue with this is that the athlete that stood up and said this would cause all sorts of strife on his own team because seemingly 25% of these guys are total dirtballs.
I guess if being with your mates and having a drink or two in what you thought would have been a safe-ish environment is putting yourself in a bad situation.....
But I guess this is going in circles... Let me give you a final example:
Outcome - guy (for the sake of this example), drunk, no wallet, on the bank of the river trying to get himself out.... What happened? Who's fault?
Scenario 1 - guy was drunk, lost his wallet (maybe thinking he had put it in his pocket but left it at the bar), was walking home along the river, lost his balance due to being totally drunk and fell in. Bad situation, HIS responsibility - no third party involved
Scenario 2 - same guy drunk, walking home along the river, gets mugged with wallet stolen and gets pushed in the river. Bad situation - MUGGER'S responsibility - third party involved.
Not sure if you see the difference in where I see one fully taking responsibility for his actions and where the criminal is to be at fault.
Yes, as a society we need to change our perceptions, etc. but when you are saying that the victim of these rapists is also at fault inferring that if she hadn't been drinking, the guys would have never touched her, is minimising her trauma and really not helping the cause of victims. Inferring that the onus was on her to 'behave'...
Anyway, bravo! I'd applaud this even if I weren't a woman.
And to polaris, going by your past posts, I don't think you're coming from a blind spot here. I - and I guess others as well - come from a different perspective - me, I can't help but do so - though I can see the point you're trying to make.
* i'm sorry that most of you do not realize that i'm not saying it is her fault and that there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for the people involved in this affair ... i'm not really sure i can say it anymore clearer - it just seems we are so self-absorbed with wanting to shelter the victim and cast everyone else into the fire ... it's akin to our discussions on mental illness and crimes ... there is a knee-jerk reaction to everything
* all i am trying to do is broaden the discussion ... we can continue to beat the drums associated with rape but yet the stats of this act are not improving ... in fact, it is getting worse ... it's not just about the same old things we talk about ... there is so much more ...
* do we live in a world without consequence!? ... i don't think so ... sure, it would be great if people could go out and let themselves go and hope their friends are there for them ... in this particular case - her friends were there for her but she chose to ignore them ... whatever, the case - this isn't about blaming her ... it's about acknowledging that if we make bad decisions - bad things can happen ... and if you don't think she made multiple bad decisions that night ... then i would simply say i respectfully disagree ...
all i know is - i don't tell all my close female friends to be careful because i want them to live in fear - i do so because i don't want anything bad to happen to them ... if you want to trade that risk away for a few extra drinks and a bigger buzz ... by all means ... you should be protected from shittiness but in reality we aren't ...
How so?
And which 'friends'? The ones who raped her? The ones who filmed? Or maybe the ones who stood by and joked or did nothing?
Did the victim 'ignore' them because she was passed out?
I'd like to say I was on the receiving end of this after a World Series game here in Toronto. We went at it all day and throughout the game at the stadium. Well to say I was ripped would be an understatement. I lost my friends and got as far as some benches outside the stadium and found that an appealing spot for a drunk nap. Next thing I know I'm being shaken and a male voice saying" are you okay, man?" Along with a female voice saying, "just leave him alone, why bother?". It happened to be two couples and the guys asked if I had money for a cab, carried (sort of) me to the street, hailed a cab, made sure I gave some address, closed the door and wished me luck. I can say if that was a police officer, I would have been in the drunk tank for sure.
So there are people who don't mind helping out there. But I find there are less and less everyday.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
no ... two "former" friends who testified ... said that they pleaded for her to stop drinking and asked her to follow them and not go with those boys ... but she ignored them ...