Would pj have made No Code and or yield with DaveA. IMO no they wouldn't. They went in a different direction. They pulled back as we know. Dave didn't like that. He might have said that. Jack irons was a huge influence on them 2 lps. Amazing lps too I think. I've said before. Pj had right drummers at the right time I love Daves time in the band. he was great. But if you standstill your moving backwards. My 2 cents. Pj wouldn't have survived without jack
i wish i wish i wish i wish, i guess it never stops
Ed's voice, Mike's guitar, Stone and Jeff's determination after having been so close to success when Andy died. That's the formula that worked, IMO. Dave added to that, no doubt, but many drummers would have. And that is in no way a shot at Dave.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
it wasn't a rocketship when he joined. he joined before the band was known. it took nearly a full year for the band to blow up after Ten was released.
Do you think Ten doesn’t take off the way it did if they don’t hire Dave A?
He’s a textbook example of right place / right time.
now you're changing the argument. Yes, he was right place right time, no doubt. But people were claiming he wasn't "in the trenches with the band" that he joined when they were already famous. Not true. He played the small shitty clubs with them. Of course it still would have taken off, but to say he joined when the band were already famous is false.
You’re right. I’ve always assumed that’s why Matt chamberlain left. He took a known opportunity vs a relatively unknown band. I would assume if he had known how big they were going to be he would have stayed. But how many bands make an album, release a video or two then become nothing? A lot.
they would have gotten famous with Ten for SURE. But Dave's drumming on VS especially was significant and helped propel them to that next stage.
Disagree completely. This band got big primarily because of one person and that person is Ed.
But the music for Ten was primarily written by Stone and Jeff. It was never just about Ed, as talented, charismatic, pretty and wonderful lyricist he is.
But it was his voice and looks that was the driving force.
Then why didn’t Bad Radio make it? Ed needed someone who could write good music and Stone and Jeff needed someone that could write good lyrics and a voice to stand out. It was a perfect storm.
I truly believe we had reached a point where each of the five core members was essential and am fairly pessimistic about the future. Still plenty of paths for good and very good but....
I truly believe we had reached a point where each of the five core members was essential and am fairly pessimistic about the future. Still plenty of paths for good and very good but....
I don’t get why anyone would say this. Their best work was before Matt. If you erase 10-yield, almost none of us would be here in the fan club. He was/is a great drummer, but they can make great music without him too.
I truly believe we had reached a point where each of the five core members was essential and am fairly pessimistic about the future. Still plenty of paths for good and very good but....
I don’t get why anyone would say this. Their best work was before Matt. If you erase 10-yield, almost none of us would be here in the fan club. He was/is a great drummer, but they can make great music without him too.
I truly believe we had reached a point where each of the five core members was essential and am fairly pessimistic about the future. Still plenty of paths for good and very good but....
I don’t get why anyone would say this. Their best work was before Matt. If you erase 10-yield, almost none of us would be here in the fan club. He was/is a great drummer, but they can make great music without him too.
You think Matt is the main variable here?
I think Matt is the easiest to replace without any noticeable hiccups. Matt is an absolute amazing drummer but I don't really recall watching him at shows except for the end of Immortality and more recently dark matter.
I truly believe we had reached a point where each of the five core members was essential and am fairly pessimistic about the future. Still plenty of paths for good and very good but....
I don’t get why anyone would say this. Their best work was before Matt. If you erase 10-yield, almost none of us would be here in the fan club. He was/is a great drummer, but they can make great music without him too.
You think Matt is the main variable here?
I think Matt is the easiest to replace without any noticeable hiccups. Matt is an absolute amazing drummer but I don't really recall watching him at shows except for the end of Immortality and more recently dark matter.
For fans and perhaps this band that may be true, but for many bands, having a new drummer can be the most difficult of on stage experiences, even if fans in the crowd don’t notice when that is happening.
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i wish i wish i wish i wish, i guess it never stops
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Ed needed someone who could write good music and Stone and Jeff needed someone that could write good lyrics and a voice to stand out. It was a perfect storm.