GOP
Comments
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Halifax2TheMax said:cincybearcat said:Halifax2TheMax said:It’s too late Liz. You and your Darth Cheney father should have done more in 2015-16. Way too late for a best seller to stop what your party put in motion. Way too late.i
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/politics/liz-cheney-trump-mccarthy-book/index.html
which is it?
What “house cleaning” have repubs done when POOTWH is currently the repub front runner to be their nominee? For a THIRD TIME?"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Halifax2TheMax said:cincybearcat said:Halifax2TheMax said:It’s too late Liz. You and your Darth Cheney father should have done more in 2015-16. Way too late for a best seller to stop what your party put in motion. Way too late.i
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/politics/liz-cheney-trump-mccarthy-book/index.html
which is it?
What “house cleaning” have repubs done when POOTWH is currently the repub front runner to be their nominee? For a THIRD TIME?How exactly do you clean house before trump took over the house? Keep moving the goalpost.hippiemom = goodness0 -
gimmesometruth27 said:Halifax2TheMax said:cincybearcat said:Halifax2TheMax said:It’s too late Liz. You and your Darth Cheney father should have done more in 2015-16. Way too late for a best seller to stop what your party put in motion. Way too late.i
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/politics/liz-cheney-trump-mccarthy-book/index.html
which is it?
What “house cleaning” have repubs done when POOTWH is currently the repub front runner to be their nominee? For a THIRD TIME?09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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who thinks santos is going to be voted out tomorrow?
i don't think he will be expelled.
some question whether or not dems should vote to expel because they did not vote to expel menendez stating that he should not be expelled unless convicted of a crime. santos pleaded guilty to that crime in brazil, so technically he has been convicted of a crime, but not here. the evidence of his most recent accusations is pretty cut and dried though. he is guilty, just not tried yet.
i think people in government credibly accused of the things menendez and santos are accused of should resign their seat. doesn't matter what their party affiliation is. back in normal times that is what would have happened."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
cincybearcat said:Halifax2TheMax said:cincybearcat said:Halifax2TheMax said:It’s too late Liz. You and your Darth Cheney father should have done more in 2015-16. Way too late for a best seller to stop what your party put in motion. Way too late.i
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/politics/liz-cheney-trump-mccarthy-book/index.html
which is it?
What “house cleaning” have repubs done when POOTWH is currently the repub front runner to be their nominee? For a THIRD TIME?How exactly do you clean house before trump took over the house? Keep moving the goalpost.
WTF are you talking about? How did I move the goalposts?So you understand, the repubs own POOTWH, from the party top to bottom, their supporters and enablers in the party, media, elected offices, deplorables/voters and donorsphere. Coming out now is of little consequence. Show me POOTWH losing the nomination and a cohesive, coordinated and sustained effort by all of the aforementioned to ensure it and maybe I’ll give that party some due. Maybe.
Exhibit B: George Santaria.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
gimmesometruth27 said:who thinks santos is going to be voted out tomorrow?
i don't think he will be expelled.
some question whether or not dems should vote to expel because they did not vote to expel menendez stating that he should not be expelled unless convicted of a crime. santos pleaded guilty to that crime in brazil, so technically he has been convicted of a crime, but not here. the evidence of his most recent accusations is pretty cut and dried though. he is guilty, just not tried yet.
i think people in government credibly accused of the things menendez and santos are accused of should resign their seat. doesn't matter what their party affiliation is. back in normal times that is what would have happened.Menendez is in the Senate. Not sure what those rules are. Or if there was a Senate Ethics Committee investigation like with Santos in the House.Given the 2 guilty pleas thus far from his campaign staff, I think its a foregone conclusion dude is going to prison.I'd be interested in reading the house report._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
www.myspace.com0 -
Desantis did much better than I expected. It was mostly bullshit word salad but he made his people happy for sure.
His strategy was obviously to attack Newsom as if he was Biden and it worked pretty well.
What should have been a debate about differences in policy was basically a shouting match.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
“You're not crazy. You’re not imagining things.There really is a major political party trying to overthrow democracy and seize power under a flag of white supremacy and religious extremism.You’re not crazy — they are”0
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Gern Blansten said:Desantis did much better than I expected. It was mostly bullshit word salad but he made his people happy for sure.
His strategy was obviously to attack Newsom as if he was Biden and it worked pretty well.
What should have been a debate about differences in policy was basically a shouting match.
www.myspace.com0 -
The Juggler said:Gern Blansten said:Desantis did much better than I expected. It was mostly bullshit word salad but he made his people happy for sure.
His strategy was obviously to attack Newsom as if he was Biden and it worked pretty well.
What should have been a debate about differences in policy was basically a shouting match.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4336876-ron-desantis-gavin-newsom-fox-news-debate-sean-hannity-california-florida/
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I'd say it's accurate. Probably few minds changed.
If you're a conservative you loved how Ron attacked Cali...if a dem you thought Ron was a fucking moron for saying a bunch of stupid shit.
I like Newsome. He's our guy.
And again...Ron did much better than I expected. Newsome did a good job reminding him how much tRump hates him. That has to hurt.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
The Juggler said:Gern Blansten said:Desantis did much better than I expected. It was mostly bullshit word salad but he made his people happy for sure.
His strategy was obviously to attack Newsom as if he was Biden and it worked pretty well.
What should have been a debate about differences in policy was basically a shouting match.0 -
Gern Blansten said:I'd say it's accurate. Probably few minds changed.
If you're a conservative you loved how Ron attacked Cali...if a dem you thought Ron was a fucking moron for saying a bunch of stupid shit.
I like Newsome. He's our guy.
And again...Ron did much better than I expected. Newsome did a good job reminding him how much tRump hates him. That has to hurt.0 -
https://apnews.com/article/george-santos-expulsion-vote-ethics-investigation-fd0f1524065883c6b2fe3e6f9afd84db Rep. George Santos is facing a vote on his expulsion from Congress as lawmakers weigh accusationsRep. George Santos is facing a vote on his expulsion from Congress as lawmakers weigh accusationsBy KEVIN FREKINGToday
WASHINGTON (AP) — Rep. George Santos of New York is facing a critical vote to expel him from the House on Friday as lawmakers weigh whether his actions, fabrications and alleged lawbreaking warrant the chamber's most severe punishment.
The first-term Republican congressman is at grave risk of becoming just the sixth member of the House to be ousted by colleagues. Expulsion requires support from two-third of the House, a purposefully high bar, but a blistering House Ethics Committee report released on Nov. 16 that accused Santos of breaking federal law may prove decisive.
“I will not stand by quietly,” Santos declared on the House floor Thursday as lawmakers debated his removal. “The people of the Third District of New York sent me here. If they want me out, you’re going to have to go silence those people and go take the hard vote.”
Of the previous expulsions in the House, three were for disloyalty to the Union during the Civil War. The remaining two occurred after the lawmakers were convicted of crimes in federal court. Santos made his case for remaining in office by appealing directly to lawmakers who worry they are setting a new precedent that could make expulsions more common.
House Speaker Mike Johnson is among those who has voiced concerns about removing Santos, though he has told members to vote their conscience. But some Republicans, including Santos' colleagues from New York, said voters will welcome lawmakers being held to a higher standard.
“I’m pretty confident the American people would applaud that. I’m pretty confident that the American people expect that, and I hope that tomorrow, in this great chamber, we set that precedent,” said Republican Rep. Anthony D’Esposito, whose district adjoins Santos'.
Santos warned lawmakers they would regret removing a member before they have had their day in court.
“This will haunt them in the future where mere allegations are sufficient to have members removed from office when duly elected by their people in their respective states and districts,” Santos said.
The expulsion push is just the latest chapter in what has been a spectacular fall from grace for Santos, a first-term lawmaker initially celebrated as an up-and-comer after he flipped a district from Democrats last year and helped Republicans win control of the House. But, soon after, troubles began. Reports began to emerge that Santos had lied about having Jewish ancestry, a career at top Wall Street firms and a college degree. His presence in the House quickly became a distraction and an embarrassment to the party.
In early March, the House Ethics Committee announced it was launching an investigation into Santos. Then in May, the U.S. attorney’s office for the Eastern District of New York indicted Santos, accusing him of duping donors, stealing from his campaign and lying to Congress. Prosecutors would later add more charges in an updated 23-count indictment.
The indictment alleges he stole the identities of campaign donors and then used their credit cards to make tens of thousands of dollars in unauthorized charges. Federal prosecutors say Santos, who has pleaded not guilty, wired some of the money to his personal bank account and used the rest to pad his campaign coffers.
Meanwhile, Ethics Committee investigators spent eight months investigating Santos and interviewing witnesses. When their work was complete, the panel said it had amassed “overwhelming evidence” of lawbreaking by Santos that it sent to the Justice Department.
Among other things, the Ethics panel said that Santos knowingly caused his campaign committee to file false or incomplete reports with the Federal Election Commission, used campaign funds for personal purposes and violated the Ethics in Government Act with his financial disclosure statements.
Arguing against expulsion during debate Thursday, Rep. Clay Higgins, R-La., said that while he respects the Ethics Committee, he had concerns about how the Santos case was handled. He said he was troubled that a Republican-led committee would submit a report that was so judgmental and publicized.
“The totality of circumstance appears biased," Higgins said. "It stinks of politics and I'll oppose this action in every way.”
While the Ethics Committee does have a Republican chairman, its membership is evenly divided. Rep. Susan Wild, the ranking Democrat on the committee, reminded members that the decision approving the investigators' findings was unanimous.
“As the Ethics Committee's report lays out in thorough detail, Mr. Santos has repeatedly, egregiously and brazenly violated the public's trust,” Wild said. “Mr. Santos is not a victim. He is a perpetrator of a massive fraud on his constituents and the American people.”
Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries of New York held his weekly press conference with a massive photo next to him of Santos and Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia sitting in the House chamber together and laughing. It's an example of how Democrats are looking to tie other Republicans to Santos when possible.
“George Santos is a malignant distraction, and hopefully that issue gets resolved,” Jeffries said.
___
Associated Press staff writer Farnoush Amiri contributed to this report.
___
Follow the AP's coverage of U.S. Rep. George Santos of New York at https://apnews.com/hub/george-santos.
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
mrussel1 said:Gern Blansten said:I'd say it's accurate. Probably few minds changed.
If you're a conservative you loved how Ron attacked Cali...if a dem you thought Ron was a fucking moron for saying a bunch of stupid shit.
I like Newsome. He's our guy.
And again...Ron did much better than I expected. Newsome did a good job reminding him how much tRump hates him. That has to hurt.
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
because of course..._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
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nicknyr15 said:The Juggler said:Gern Blansten said:Desantis did much better than I expected. It was mostly bullshit word salad but he made his people happy for sure.
His strategy was obviously to attack Newsom as if he was Biden and it worked pretty well.
What should have been a debate about differences in policy was basically a shouting match.
But I'd argue we need more of these "shouting" matches. Too many times we either have 10 guys on the stage and nobody can get a word in edge wise or we have someone like Trump too afraid to even dip his toes in the water. And you learn next to nothing about any of them.
As flawed and biased as Sean Hannity is as a moderator, what we saw last night, I think, was ultimately good for democracy and I would hope it is the start of more to come. I wish more people would have bothered to watch.Post edited by The Juggler onwww.myspace.com0 -
The Juggler said:nicknyr15 said:The Juggler said:Gern Blansten said:Desantis did much better than I expected. It was mostly bullshit word salad but he made his people happy for sure.
His strategy was obviously to attack Newsom as if he was Biden and it worked pretty well.
What should have been a debate about differences in policy was basically a shouting match.
But I'd argue we need more of these "shouting" matches. Too many times we either have 10 guys on the stage and nobody can get a word in edge wise or we have someone like Trump too afraid to even dip his toes in the water. And you learn next to nothing about any of them.
As flawed and biased as Sean Hannity is as a moderator, what we saw last night, I think, was ultimately good for democracy and I would hope it is the start of more to come. I wish more people would have bothered to watch.And yea , 10 people on stage shouting, that’s just a gigantic waste of time.0 -
Santos is out.
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Merkin Baller said:Santos is out.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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Merkin Baller said:Santos is out.0
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nicknyr15 said:Merkin Baller said:Santos is out.
& yeah... this was long overdue, although tbh, I didn't think it was going to happen.0 -
Halifax2TheMax said:Merkin Baller said:Santos is out.
Or oan
Or infowars0 -
Halifax2TheMax said:Merkin Baller sa8id:Santos is out.
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
mickeyrat said:"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140
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