George Floyd Protests

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

What kind of forklift accident or isle mishap would be on par with what we were dealing with?

Maybe 7 years is an over correction from years of this stuff being swept under the rug or justified in a million other way but I’m fine with reckless ineptitude being resulting in injury or death being punishable

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

Bad analogy.  The forklift driver isn't dealing with life and death every day.  A cop or Doctor literally is.

A doctor doesn't just sign up like say a firemen or cop can.  They have to do years and years of school and training.

That was kind of my point, although I didn’t do a good job explaining. I don’t think the type of job should matter. If someone makes a mistake and kills someone on the job, if we’re taking about negligence that lead to an accidental death then the job doesn’t matter. At least to me it doesn’t. Which is why I feel 7 years is a lot for this cop, we’d never hold anyone else to that same level of consequence. Someone at Home Depot who accidentally kills someone with a forklift would probably never get 7 years.  So why take their career into consideration for sentencing? 

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

Bad analogy.  The forklift driver isn't dealing with life and death every day.  A cop or Doctor literally is.

A doctor doesn't just sign up like say a firemen or cop can.  They have to do years and years of school and training.

That was kind of my point, although I didn’t do a good job explaining. I don’t think the type of job should matter. If someone makes a mistake and kills someone on the job, if we’re taking about negligence that lead to an accidental death then the job doesn’t matter. At least to me it doesn’t. Which is why I feel 7 years is a lot for this cop, we’d never hold anyone else to that same level of consequence. Someone at Home Depot who accidentally kills someone with a forklift would probably never get 7 years.  So why take their career into consideration for sentencing? 

It's not the career; it's the act. the cop, in this situation, is acting to neutralize someone they fear is going to harm them. had the cop accidentally discharged their weapon and it hit someone in a crowd and killed them, I don't think they get 7 years. if a forklift operator saw someone acting erratically and used the forklift to try to neutralize the person, saying 'I only wanted to pin him, but the in the heat of it I accidentally hit the lever and the forks came down and crushed him" that would be different. 

it's also hard to really believe 100% that a trained police officer mistook a taser gun for a real gun. I don't know if I buy it. 

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

DewieCox said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

What kind of forklift accident or isle mishap would be on par with what we were dealing with?

Maybe 7 years is an over correction from years of this stuff being swept under the rug or justified in a million other way but I’m fine with reckless ineptitude being resulting in injury or death being punishable

I’m just saying this shooting was obviously an accident as she clearly thought she had the taser in the moment. So it was a mistake that lead to this death.
There are people who’s job it is to clear and close an isle before using a forklift. If a forklift drover forgot to confr the isle was clear and closed and knocked something over that killed him, he to would have made a mistake that killed someone. If one deserves 7 years then so does the other. That’s why I think it was a strong punishment, I think neither do. It’s clearly and unintentional accident. 

I don’t see how “they signed up for it” or deal with deadly situations changes that. 

She’s guilty, deserves some consequences. I just think 7 years is a lot. We’d never hold anyone else in another job to the same criminal standard, and when it comes to sentencing and taking away freedom I don’t see how that’s justified.

I think cops should be held to much higher standards than Home Depot employees.  If one's job involves the regular use of lethal force and training has been provided there should be stiff penalties.  I think it is a public safety issue and it is good for the public that police officers are starting to see harsher consequences for their neglect. As a citizen I feel better knowing that law enforcement is entering a world where they might suffer consequences for resulting to lethal force, especially when not needed. Hopefully it leads to more and better training, and more officers thinking before taking the "easy" way and pulling a trigger to solve a problem. 

A cop should be held to higher standards but not like a captain of a ship or a plane does.  Those two are crimanally liable should they cause death, harm or gross negligence.  Remember the pilots who flew drunk?

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

Bad analogy.  The forklift driver isn't dealing with life and death every day.  A cop or Doctor literally is.

A doctor doesn't just sign up like say a firemen or cop can.  They have to do years and years of school and training.

That was kind of my point, although I didn’t do a good job explaining. I don’t think the type of job should matter. If someone makes a mistake and kills someone on the job, if we’re taking about negligence that lead to an accidental death then the job doesn’t matter. At least to me it doesn’t. Which is why I feel 7 years is a lot for this cop, we’d never hold anyone else to that same level of consequence. Someone at Home Depot who accidentally kills someone with a forklift would probably never get 7 years.  So why take their career into consideration for sentencing? 

As I stated above, if the person should have been reasonably aware of the danger they may cause, and are negligent, that's where criminality comes into play.  That would not be the case for a fork lift operator in the example.  That WOULD be the case for a person driving a car or truck.  Or a cop with a gun.  The pilot is even a little different.  A drunk pilot is committing a crime by operating the plane, which moves it immediately into criminal behavior.  If a sober pilot makes a good faith error, it's likely not criminal in nature.  

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

Bad analogy.  The forklift driver isn't dealing with life and death every day.  A cop or Doctor literally is.

A doctor doesn't just sign up like say a firemen or cop can.  They have to do years and years of school and training.

That was kind of my point, although I didn’t do a good job explaining. I don’t think the type of job should matter. If someone makes a mistake and kills someone on the job, if we’re taking about negligence that lead to an accidental death then the job doesn’t matter. At least to me it doesn’t. Which is why I feel 7 years is a lot for this cop, we’d never hold anyone else to that same level of consequence. Someone at Home Depot who accidentally kills someone with a forklift would probably never get 7 years.  So why take their career into consideration for sentencing? 

It's not the career; it's the act. the cop, in this situation, is acting to neutralize someone they fear is going to harm them. had the cop accidentally discharged their weapon and it hit someone in a crowd and killed them, I don't think they get 7 years. if a forklift operator saw someone acting erratically and used the forklift to try to neutralize the person, saying 'I only wanted to pin him, but the in the heat of it I accidentally hit the lever and the forks came down and crushed him" that would be different. 

it's also hard to really believe 100% that a trained police officer mistook a taser gun for a real gun. I don't know if I buy it. 

Did you watch the video? It looks obvious to me it’s an accident. Her yelling “taser taser” then her reaction after. Plus you really think she’d pick that moment, when she’s training another officer, to just murder someone and blame it on an accident?
And the act as you described it seems like more reason to believe there was an accident. You have about 1 second to neutralize a threat. There was an obvious threat who wanted to to harm to her and the other police and you have about a second to react. Mistaking yo gun for a taser is probably about a 1 in a million mistake. But how many times have tasers been used? Probably millions of times and this is the first I’ve heard of a gun being used by mistake. If anything, the act as you described, with her life and other on the line and given just moments to react, and the scenario should call for leniency, not stricter punishment. But I think it should be treated equal, the same as anyone else who made a mistake and accidentally killed someone.
Dr, forklift, whatever, doesn’t matter. A person driving a car and failing to stop for a pedestrian walkway. Accidents happen all the time that kill people, I never hear of them getting 7 years.
Od probably feel safer as a pedestrian knowing if a drover hit me they’d get more serious consequences. That doesn’t make it right.

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

Bad analogy.  The forklift driver isn't dealing with life and death every day.  A cop or Doctor literally is.

A doctor doesn't just sign up like say a firemen or cop can.  They have to do years and years of school and training.

That was kind of my point, although I didn’t do a good job explaining. I don’t think the type of job should matter. If someone makes a mistake and kills someone on the job, if we’re taking about negligence that lead to an accidental death then the job doesn’t matter. At least to me it doesn’t. Which is why I feel 7 years is a lot for this cop, we’d never hold anyone else to that same level of consequence. Someone at Home Depot who accidentally kills someone with a forklift would probably never get 7 years.  So why take their career into consideration for sentencing? 

It's not the career; it's the act. the cop, in this situation, is acting to neutralize someone they fear is going to harm them. had the cop accidentally discharged their weapon and it hit someone in a crowd and killed them, I don't think they get 7 years. if a forklift operator saw someone acting erratically and used the forklift to try to neutralize the person, saying 'I only wanted to pin him, but the in the heat of it I accidentally hit the lever and the forks came down and crushed him" that would be different. 

it's also hard to really believe 100% that a trained police officer mistook a taser gun for a real gun. I don't know if I buy it. 

Did you watch the video? It looks obvious to me it’s an accident. Her yelling “taser taser” then her reaction after. Plus you really think she’d pick that moment, when she’s training another officer, to just murder someone and blame it on an accident?
And the act as you described it seems like more reason to believe there was an accident. You have about 1 second to neutralize a threat. There was an obvious threat who wanted to to harm to her and the other police and you have about a second to react. Mistaking yo gun for a taser is probably about a 1 in a million mistake. But how many times have tasers been used? Probably millions of times and this is the first I’ve heard of a gun being used by mistake. If anything, the act as you described, with her life and other on the line and given just moments to react, and the scenario should call for leniency, not stricter punishment. But I think it should be treated equal, the same as anyone else who made a mistake and accidentally killed someone.
Dr, forklift, whatever, doesn’t matter. A person driving a car and failing to stop for a pedestrian walkway. Accidents happen all the time that kill people, I never hear of them getting 7 years.
Od probably feel safer as a pedestrian knowing if a drover hit me they’d get more serious consequences. That doesn’t make it right.

No, they get 110 years.  https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-truck-driver-rogel-aguilera-mederos-prison-sentence

Are you guys just circle jerking each other here?  It's about negligence and whether a person SHOULD have reasonably known the risks.  That is true for a gun, a car, etc.  People get homicide and manslaughter charges driving vehicles all the time.  The fork lift example is ridiculous. 

That’s a different comparison as he made several intentional decisions that lead to the crash and why he was found guilty of vehicular homicide, most fatal crashes don’t result in criminal charges.
But even so, there’s a large petition to lower his sentence, even supported by surviving victims and the DA.
I can’t find any of the details now because all of the reports are about the sentencing. But I live not too far from there and remember this all over the news at the time. He passed at least 1 runaway truck ramp and I believe was seen speeding before his brakes went out. I also think I remember something about ignoring signs of breaks going bad or not checking them as required or something, but I can’t remember for sure.  In any case, he made intentional choices that lead to this accident. That is different from what we were discussing.

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Other than showing up unconscious at a hospital most seek out medical attention and accept the risk that a doctor may make a mistake or misdiagnose us…it sucks but we accept.  When I’m getting pulled over by the cops there should be no risk to the average person…cops have a tough job, but they sign up for it.  Firefighters have a tougher job, but they accept the risk by pulling people out of burning buildings…police departments need to do a better job hiring people…

I don’t get the argument of “they signed up for it” here. Doctors do have a tough job, but didn’t they sign up for that too? 

You don’t have to stick with the dr analogy. Someone using a fork lift at Home Depot kills someone because they forgot to clear the isle, or a mechanic kills someone because they forgot to set the brake and the car rolls off a block? They signed up to operate a fork lift and I don’t accept any risk walking into a Home Depot, so does he get 7 years too?

Bad analogy.  The forklift driver isn't dealing with life and death every day.  A cop or Doctor literally is.

A doctor doesn't just sign up like say a firemen or cop can.  They have to do years and years of school and training.

That was kind of my point, although I didn’t do a good job explaining. I don’t think the type of job should matter. If someone makes a mistake and kills someone on the job, if we’re taking about negligence that lead to an accidental death then the job doesn’t matter. At least to me it doesn’t. Which is why I feel 7 years is a lot for this cop, we’d never hold anyone else to that same level of consequence. Someone at Home Depot who accidentally kills someone with a forklift would probably never get 7 years.  So why take their career into consideration for sentencing? 

It's not the career; it's the act. the cop, in this situation, is acting to neutralize someone they fear is going to harm them. had the cop accidentally discharged their weapon and it hit someone in a crowd and killed them, I don't think they get 7 years. if a forklift operator saw someone acting erratically and used the forklift to try to neutralize the person, saying 'I only wanted to pin him, but the in the heat of it I accidentally hit the lever and the forks came down and crushed him" that would be different. 

it's also hard to really believe 100% that a trained police officer mistook a taser gun for a real gun. I don't know if I buy it. 

Did you watch the video? It looks obvious to me it’s an accident. Her yelling “taser taser” then her reaction after. Plus you really think she’d pick that moment, when she’s training another officer, to just murder someone and blame it on an accident?
And the act as you described it seems like more reason to believe there was an accident. You have about 1 second to neutralize a threat. There was an obvious threat who wanted to to harm to her and the other police and you have about a second to react. Mistaking yo gun for a taser is probably about a 1 in a million mistake. But how many times have tasers been used? Probably millions of times and this is the first I’ve heard of a gun being used by mistake. If anything, the act as you described, with her life and other on the line and given just moments to react, and the scenario should call for leniency, not stricter punishment. But I think it should be treated equal, the same as anyone else who made a mistake and accidentally killed someone.
Dr, forklift, whatever, doesn’t matter. A person driving a car and failing to stop for a pedestrian walkway. Accidents happen all the time that kill people, I never hear of them getting 7 years.
Od probably feel safer as a pedestrian knowing if a drover hit me they’d get more serious consequences. That doesn’t make it right.

No, they get 110 years.  https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-truck-driver-rogel-aguilera-mederos-prison-sentence

Are you guys just circle jerking each other here?  It's about negligence and whether a person SHOULD have reasonably known the risks.  That is true for a gun, a car, etc.  People get homicide and manslaughter charges driving vehicles all the time.  The fork lift example is ridiculous. 

That’s a different comparison as he made several intentional decisions that lead to the crash and why he was found guilty of vehicular homicide, most fatal crashes don’t result in criminal charges.
But even so, there’s a large petition to lower his sentence, even supported by surviving victims and the DA.
I can’t find any of the details now because all of the reports are about the sentencing. But I live not too far from there and remember this all over the news at the time. He passed at least 1 runaway truck ramp and I believe was seen speeding before his brakes went out. I also think I remember something about ignoring signs of breaks going bad or not checking them as required or something, but I can’t remember for sure.  In any case, he made intentional choices that lead to this accident. That is different from what we were discussing.

It's negligent to the point of criminality.  I was providing an egregious example that was in the news because of your statement, but let's take another.  If you are reading a text on your cell and smash into someone crossing the road because you were distracted, you would absolutely be charged with some level of vehicular homicide.  If you were driving the speed limit and someone jumped out and you swerved to miss them, but hit someone else or another car, you probably would not be charged.  Perhaps swerving to miss was a bad decision, or you over corrected, but at the same time you likely did not make a criminally negligent decision.  

For this case, I think the question was whether the cop SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that she pulled her taser rather than her handgun.  It's on a different part of the belt, it likely weighs very differently and of course is yellow.  Second, police are taught to keep the taser on their weak hands.  So you fire a gun with your right hand, a taser with a left.  Becuase of this, it would be difficult to mix up the two.  Now I dont' know if she should have been found guilty or not, but these are some of the things that would make her criminally negligent.  

Of course she should have known the difference. And I think a guilty verdict of something is justified, I’m not arguing she’s innocent, I just believe 7 years is a lot for what happened. The difference I see is she didn’t do anything criminally wrong that caused her to make the mistake. She wasn’t texting or speeding or bypassing runaway truck ramps, she was just doing her job and made a fatal mistake. (Which is why I compared it to the forklift. Don’t like the example, fine, but I see it the same because of the intentions, she never intended to do anything wrong. Some of the other examples given the person intended to do something wrong or illegal that created a scenario which caused the accident. She didn’t)

mickeyrat said:

 

she fired her weapon into a car that had a passenger directly behind the driver from the officers pov and I believe a sgt that had arrived. she failed to wait for the "look of fear officer" to fully get out of the way. she failed to lay out exactly what her trainee should do to effect the arrest BEFORE he was removed from the vehicle in such a way to leave open the eventuality of the driver getting back in the car.  she failed to address her trainees rationale for the stop (being a high crime area, a lot of shootings,  etc.  does that mean everyone in that area should be stopped?) on the premise he had expired tags.  ohio put a hold on those stops that lasted from 3-20 to 7-21.She was the senior officer  and the training officer. claimed she was afraid the driver would drag the trainee, BUT training enforces when hearing taser taser taser the at jeopardy officer disengages so as not to be darted, at which point the chance of being dragged is zero.

SHE FAILED and a man died by her hand. ACCOUNTABLE for more than 7 years but Mn law is Mn law.

Watching that video she was on an angle so the other officer and passenger weren't in danger.  What I was most surprised about is the amount of time she had the gun in her hand for.  She pulled her gun and said "I'll taze you".  She held that gun for a few seconds never realizing she had grabbed the gun and not the tazer.

Seeing that I would force the officers to train w a taser opposite of their shooting hand.  Would it be difficult at first?  Yes.  Train so you know the difference and are proficient with it.