America's Gun Violence #2
Comments
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Disagree...the frequency has increased since Sandy Hook and it will continue to increase. It doesn't just have to be schools either. Shopping malls, Wal-Mart, high school football games, etc.Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
As long as our gun laws are so ridiculous it won't matter.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
I don't think the charges will stick to the parents but I think there could be some value in it taking a long time to play out. It's crystal clear that some people don't take appropriate precautions with their firearms and may some will see this and think about the difficulties they could have to go through with being internet-infamous, losing their jobs, and possibly the law if they are lax with their equipment. Of course "well, my kid would never do that." But all sorts of bad shit can come from being lax with your firearms. As a non-gun-owner, that seems pretty basic to me.
Post edited by OnWis97 on1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley0 -
I tend to agree with Halifax. If mass shootings / school shootings were ever going to move the needle, it would have happened by now.Gern Blansten said:
Disagree...the frequency has increased since Sandy Hook and it will continue to increase. It doesn't just have to be schools either. Shopping malls, Wal-Mart, high school football games, etc.Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
As long as our gun laws are so ridiculous it won't matter.1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley0 -
So what level of carnage is it that you believe will change things? A single event with 200 casualties or 10 events a day for weeks on end? Or when it’s an event where it’s the kids, family and friends of those who can make a difference?Gern Blansten said:
Disagree...the frequency has increased since Sandy Hook and it will continue to increase. It doesn't just have to be schools either. Shopping malls, Wal-Mart, high school football games, etc.Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
As long as our gun laws are so ridiculous it won't matter.
Me? I don’t think there is any level of carnage occurring that will change the dynamic in any meaningful way. With all due respect to Mr. Lux and his thread, the breakdown of society doesn’t occur with smash & grab robberies but when 20 first and second graders and six of their teachers are murdered in their school two weeks before Christmas and absolutely nothing, not one thing, regarding the buying, selling and possessing of firearms changes.
Too late.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
At it's peak, opioid overdoses were responsible for more than 130 deaths per day before the US thought about doing anything about it
It's terrifying to think that is the tipping point for our collective consciousness
0 -
I don't know enough about Michigan law... I personally hope the charges stick. Just watching the press conference with the prosecutor and right off the bat she stated that these charges were A: to hold them responsible and B: to send a message.OnWis97 said:I don't think the charges will stick to the parents but I think there could be some value in it taking a long time to play out. It's crystal clear that some people don't take appropriate precautions with their firearms and may some will see this and think about the difficulties they could have to go through with being internet-infamous, losing their jobs, and possibly the law if they are lax with their equipment. Of course "well, my kid would never do that." But all sorts of bad shit can come from being lax with your firearms. As a non-gun-owner, that seems pretty basic to me.
I'm not sure a prosecutor wants to use those words. If I'm the defence, it's the first thing I'm going to use to debate the law here. In that there was motivation based on pressure to file charges, not the letter of the law.
Again.. I hope the charges stick. They are 100% responsible for this.Toronto 2000
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It has moved the needle....just not with the GOP. That takes more blood and chips away at their ridiculous defenses.OnWis97 said:
I tend to agree with Halifax. If mass shootings / school shootings were ever going to move the needle, it would have happened by now.Gern Blansten said:
Disagree...the frequency has increased since Sandy Hook and it will continue to increase. It doesn't just have to be schools either. Shopping malls, Wal-Mart, high school football games, etc.Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
As long as our gun laws are so ridiculous it won't matter.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
I don't know....they told the kid "don't get caught" trying to buy ammoOnWis97 said:I don't think the charges will stick to the parents but I think there could be some value in it taking a long time to play out. It's crystal clear that some people don't take appropriate precautions with their firearms and may some will see this and think about the difficulties they could have to go through with being internet-infamous, losing their jobs, and possibly the law if they are lax with their equipment. Of course "well, my kid would never do that." But all sorts of bad shit can come from being lax with your firearms. As a non-gun-owner, that seems pretty basic to me.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
Just multiple events. Clearly we still have school shootings even with increased protections which the GOP said would solve the problem.Halifax2TheMax said:
So what level of carnage is it that you believe will change things? A single event with 200 casualties or 10 events a day for weeks on end? Or when it’s an event where it’s the kids, family and friends of those who can make a difference?Gern Blansten said:
Disagree...the frequency has increased since Sandy Hook and it will continue to increase. It doesn't just have to be schools either. Shopping malls, Wal-Mart, high school football games, etc.Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
As long as our gun laws are so ridiculous it won't matter.
Me? I don’t think there is any level of carnage occurring that will change the dynamic in any meaningful way. With all due respect to Mr. Lux and his thread, the breakdown of society doesn’t occur with smash & grab robberies but when 20 first and second graders and six of their teachers are murdered in their school two weeks before Christmas and absolutely nothing, not one thing, regarding the buying, selling and possessing of firearms changes.
Too late.
The problem is guns and our access to them.
In this case the school knew guns were an issue with the kid. The laws should allow the police to enter that home (they should be registered and licensed) and remove them...that's the "well regulated" verbiage that is written in the constitution.Post edited by Gern Blansten onRemember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
I disagree with that take on "sending a message". That sort of language is used all the time within the criminal justice system. Deterrence is seen as being one of the purposes of creating and enforcing laws.Parksy said:
I don't know enough about Michigan law... I personally hope the charges stick. Just watching the press conference with the prosecutor and right off the bat she stated that these charges were A: to hold them responsible and B: to send a message.OnWis97 said:I don't think the charges will stick to the parents but I think there could be some value in it taking a long time to play out. It's crystal clear that some people don't take appropriate precautions with their firearms and may some will see this and think about the difficulties they could have to go through with being internet-infamous, losing their jobs, and possibly the law if they are lax with their equipment. Of course "well, my kid would never do that." But all sorts of bad shit can come from being lax with your firearms. As a non-gun-owner, that seems pretty basic to me.
I'm not sure a prosecutor wants to use those words. If I'm the defence, it's the first thing I'm going to use to debate the law here. In that there was motivation based on pressure to file charges, not the letter of the law.
Again.. I hope the charges stick. They are 100% responsible for this.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
I agree with the intent and purpose of course...oftenreading said:
I disagree with that take on "sending a message". That sort of language is used all the time within the criminal justice system. Deterrence is seen as being one of the purposes of creating and enforcing laws.Parksy said:
I don't know enough about Michigan law... I personally hope the charges stick. Just watching the press conference with the prosecutor and right off the bat she stated that these charges were A: to hold them responsible and B: to send a message.OnWis97 said:I don't think the charges will stick to the parents but I think there could be some value in it taking a long time to play out. It's crystal clear that some people don't take appropriate precautions with their firearms and may some will see this and think about the difficulties they could have to go through with being internet-infamous, losing their jobs, and possibly the law if they are lax with their equipment. Of course "well, my kid would never do that." But all sorts of bad shit can come from being lax with your firearms. As a non-gun-owner, that seems pretty basic to me.
I'm not sure a prosecutor wants to use those words. If I'm the defence, it's the first thing I'm going to use to debate the law here. In that there was motivation based on pressure to file charges, not the letter of the law.
Again.. I hope the charges stick. They are 100% responsible for this.
I just wouldn't say it out loud as a lawyer. It's been discussed somewhere in this forum about the eyes of justice. If I'm the prosecutor, the focus needs to be on the letter of the law. 'This is what happened. This is what laws were broken. Here is who broke them. They are being charged.' Full stop. I see absolutely no legal reason to say as a prosecutor 'I'm mad. I'm angry. We're sending a message.' Very bad idea in my opinion. If she wanted to ... or I guess if I were in her position as a public servant, I would utter remarks such as those on behalf of the victims. 'People are angry. People are mad. People are hoping this sends a message.'
If I'm the defence I'm going to keep coming back to this press conference. They'll argue the validity of the charges through legal language. If the jury can be manipulated into believing that the parents of course did something wrong, but didn't necessarily break the law... they can use these words in their favour and say that the charges laid were too quick, without cause, and a knee-jerk reaction.
If you're pissed, and you're angry, and you want to send a message... win in court. This is going to be another interesting one. To be clear though... yes they should be charged and certainly punished.Toronto 2000
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Prosecutor: Michigan school shooting suspect wrote 'help me'By COREY WILLIAMS and ED WHITE25 mins ago
PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — A prosecutor says the parents of a teen accused of killing four students at a Michigan high school were summoned a few hours earlier after a teacher found a drawing of a gun, a person bleeding and the words “help me.”
Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald made the disclosure Friday as she filed involuntary manslaughter charges against Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley.
McDonald says the gun used in the shootings at Oxford High School was purchased by James Crumbley a week ago and given to the boy.
Ethan Crumbley was returned to his classroom and later emerged from a bathroom, firing a gun at students. He's charged with murder and other charges.
McDonald says Jennifer Crumbley sent her son a text, saying “Ethan, don't do it.”
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. AP’s earlier story follows below.
continues.....
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Government took notice and started cracking down in 2002 or so?CM189191 said:Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
At it's peak, opioid overdoses were responsible for more than 130 deaths per day before the US thought about doing anything about it
It's terrifying to think that is the tipping point for our collective consciousness0 -
tempo_n_groove said:
Government took notice and started cracking down in 2002 or so?CM189191 said:Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
At it's peak, opioid overdoses were responsible for more than 130 deaths per day before the US thought about doing anything about it
It's terrifying to think that is the tipping point for our collective consciousness
trying to.
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
I remember them making it a federal crime to possess them and they made the manufacturers change how they were made so you couldn't snort them which people found ways around anyway.mickeyrat said:tempo_n_groove said:
Government took notice and started cracking down in 2002 or so?CM189191 said:Halifax2TheMax said:
Schools have created and have whole lock down procedures and have basically become prisons while in session. You have to be buzzed in, cameras, armed security or police present, classroom doors with locks, etc. My point is that while school shootings will never be eliminated, they will never accumulate in a period of time to a degree where Americans will finally say, enough is enough and real reform will take place. It’s way too late, the cats already out of the bag.Gern Blansten said:
interesting you say this after another school shootingHalifax2TheMax said:
I disagree because it’s unlikely another 20 Sandy Hooks or Vegas’ will occur because of the fascist measures implemented to prevent them. Schools are like prisons and hotels have changed procedures so gun nuts can have their freedumbs. Mass shootings will occur in softer and softer targets until no place in public with more than 3 people is safe. And with Meta, you’ll never have to leave your house.Gern Blansten said:
Right but 20 Sandy Hooks and 20 Vegas' will. As I said....might be a few decades down the road but it will happenHalifax2TheMax said:
You crazy, yo! You’ve got 780,000 dead Americans and we can’t get people to wear masks or be vaccinated and you think we’ll restrict 2A? Crazy talk. For fun, how many dead turns the tide? I ask because Sandy Hook and Vegas haven’t caused shit to change.Gern Blansten said:
The frequencies will increase as we have seen. We might be talking about 10-20 years down the road but it will happen.Parksy said:
I agree... but perhaps sounding pessimistic... what's the threshold? Like what else has to happen to generate actual change? I personally have little to no hope. After Sandy Hook... if THAT wasn't enough, nationally to crack the foundations of partisanship, then what will?Gern Blansten said:I have been saying for years that we will have gun control at some point in the future. Gun violence (shootings, good guys with guns being mistaken for bad guys by police, etc.) will get so bad that fewer and fewer GOP will be able to avoid it.
To me it is just like the seatbelt law. We watch people get launched through windshields time and time again and then we finally do something about it. Does it prevent all windshield supermen? No....but it prevents a lot of them.
In similar context... After Jan 6th I thought... ok, this outta do it. Trump fanatics (in the name of Republicans) beating police, and everything else. Like that outta do it. Then McCarthy's comments and Graham's comments... I was like, ok finally. That lasted like a minute.
The GOP solution is to put security guards at schools. That just means the shooter will make the guard the first victim. The GOP "solutions" will have to be proven false by people dying. It really sucks but that is the path we are headed down.
We will get to registration and licensing and an assault weapons ban once we have buried the right number of dead bodies.Sandy Hook and everything that has transpired since proves it.
At it's peak, opioid overdoses were responsible for more than 130 deaths per day before the US thought about doing anything about it
It's terrifying to think that is the tipping point for our collective consciousness
trying to.
Thread integrity though I would like to see the Michigan family convicted of something.0 -
From CNN...
Prosecutor: Suspect's parents left school without son after being told of his behavior morning of shooting
Oakland County, Michigan, Prosecutor Karen McDonald outlined some of the key events that took place on the day of the shooting.
A teacher of shooting suspect, Ethan Crumbley, found a note on his desk on the morning of the shooting that "alarmed her to the point she took a picture of it on her cell phone."
She said the note included a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, "the thoughts won't stop, help me." The note also included a section with a drawing of a bullet with the words "blood everywhere."
The parents of the suspect "were immediately summoned" to the school, McDonald said. The prosecutor noted that the suspect altered the note before it was retrieved by a counselor.
"At the meeting James and Jennifer Crumbley were shown the drawing and were advised that they were required to get the — their son into counseling within 48 hours," she said.
The prosecutor said the parents "failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun which he had with him."
The parents resisted the idea of their son leaving the school at that time and they left the school without him, she added. He was returned to the classroom.
0 -
Jesus, if a school immediately summons you and tells you that you need to get your son into counseling within 48 hours, why the f would you leave your kid at school?Bentleyspop said:From CNN...
Prosecutor: Suspect's parents left school without son after being told of his behavior morning of shooting
Oakland County, Michigan, Prosecutor Karen McDonald outlined some of the key events that took place on the day of the shooting.
A teacher of shooting suspect, Ethan Crumbley, found a note on his desk on the morning of the shooting that "alarmed her to the point she took a picture of it on her cell phone."
She said the note included a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, "the thoughts won't stop, help me." The note also included a section with a drawing of a bullet with the words "blood everywhere."
The parents of the suspect "were immediately summoned" to the school, McDonald said. The prosecutor noted that the suspect altered the note before it was retrieved by a counselor.
"At the meeting James and Jennifer Crumbley were shown the drawing and were advised that they were required to get the — their son into counseling within 48 hours," she said.
The prosecutor said the parents "failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun which he had with him."
The parents resisted the idea of their son leaving the school at that time and they left the school without him, she added. He was returned to the classroom.
0 -
If you didn't take a threat like that seriously before this case will definitely change all of that now...Bentleyspop said:From CNN...
Prosecutor: Suspect's parents left school without son after being told of his behavior morning of shooting
Oakland County, Michigan, Prosecutor Karen McDonald outlined some of the key events that took place on the day of the shooting.
A teacher of shooting suspect, Ethan Crumbley, found a note on his desk on the morning of the shooting that "alarmed her to the point she took a picture of it on her cell phone."
She said the note included a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, "the thoughts won't stop, help me." The note also included a section with a drawing of a bullet with the words "blood everywhere."
The parents of the suspect "were immediately summoned" to the school, McDonald said. The prosecutor noted that the suspect altered the note before it was retrieved by a counselor.
"At the meeting James and Jennifer Crumbley were shown the drawing and were advised that they were required to get the — their son into counseling within 48 hours," she said.
The prosecutor said the parents "failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun which he had with him."
The parents resisted the idea of their son leaving the school at that time and they left the school without him, she added. He was returned to the classroom.
0 -
What are your thoughts on the responsibilities of the school in all this? I do put the blame on the parents and the student but I found it rather odd that A: the school did not contact the authorities immediately and B: there isn't a policy in place that indicates the authorities need to be contacted at any sign of threat.Toronto 2000
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See my above comment.Parksy said:What are your thoughts on the responsibilities of the school in all this? I do put the blame on the parents and the student but I found it rather odd that A: the school did not contact the authorities immediately and B: there isn't a policy in place that indicates the authorities need to be contacted at any sign of threat.
Cops should have been notified.0
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