America's Gun Violence #2

HughFreakingDillon · October 2021

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

gimmesometruth27 · October 2021

not related to current times, but i am reading this book called A Strange and Blighted Land, Gettysburg The Aftermath of a Battle.

it tells one story of a 3 year old boy who was accidently shot and killed by his 5 or 6 year old brother who found a loaded rifle near the battlefield a few days after the battle. it is sad, but it showed me that these kinds of things have been happening here for over a century and a half.

Ledbetterman10 · October 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

Apparently there were crew members that raised concerns, and subsequently walked off the set, in the first few days of shooting (the movie).

Crew on Baldwin film raised prop gun concerns before fatal shooting | Alec Baldwin | The Guardian

HughFreakingDillon · October 2021

Ledbetterman10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

Apparently there were crew members that raised concerns, and subsequently walked off the set, in the first few days of shooting (the movie).

Crew on Baldwin film raised prop gun concerns before fatal shooting | Alec Baldwin | The Guardian

yes, I had read that. I'm unfamiliar with what the official role of the producer is; that would make a difference in culpability.

gimmesometruth27 · October 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

Apparently there were crew members that raised concerns, and subsequently walked off the set, in the first few days of shooting (the movie).

Crew on Baldwin film raised prop gun concerns before fatal shooting | Alec Baldwin | The Guardian

yes, I had read that. I'm unfamiliar with what the official role of the producer is; that would make a difference in culpability.

producers are the money people. they are the ones that put up the funding to make the movie.

PJPOWER · October 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

It doesn’t even sound like the person in charge of the guns was very knowledgeable of them. Not sure about “real experts”…
And the actor was obviously pointing it at someone’s mid-section.
My argument is that Baldwin shouldn’t have even had it in his hands if he doesn’t know how to operate it and do his own safety check.

Simple firearm basic safety rules:
”treat every gun as if it were loaded”
”never point at something you do not wish to destroy”

HughFreakingDillon · October 2021

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

It doesn’t even sound like the person in charge of the guns was very knowledgeable of them. Not sure about “real experts”…
And the actor was obviously pointing it at someone’s mid-section.
My argument is that Baldwin shouldn’t have even had it in his hands if he doesn’t know how to operate it and do his own safety check.
Simple firearm basic safety rules:
”treat every gun as if it were loaded”
”never point at something you do not wish to destroy”

no, there are real experts in this field. from what I've read, there are many variables involved in a prop gun being used safely, so there's a ton of training and expertise involved.

it's not just the costume guy moonlighting as a prop gun guy.

doing a "safety check", as I said, would have been moot if it had been baldwin, or even a trained firearm enthusiast. As I stated, a layman wouldn't know the difference between a real loaded gun and a prop gun loaded with blanks, even opening the chamber, it looks the same apparently; it is virtually indistinguishable just to look at. only the person loading it would know, and you have to trust they did their job correctly.

PJPOWER · October 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

It doesn’t even sound like the person in charge of the guns was very knowledgeable of them. Not sure about “real experts”…
And the actor was obviously pointing it at someone’s mid-section.
My argument is that Baldwin shouldn’t have even had it in his hands if he doesn’t know how to operate it and do his own safety check.
Simple firearm basic safety rules:
”treat every gun as if it were loaded”
”never point at something you do not wish to destroy”

no, there are real experts in this field. from what I've read, there are many variables involved in a prop gun being used safely, so there's a ton of training and expertise involved.

it's just the costume guy moonlighting as a prop gun guy.

doing a "safety check", as I said, would have been moot if it had been baldwin, or even a trained firearm enthusiast. As I stated, a layman wouldn't know the difference between a real loaded gun and a prop gun loaded with blanks, even opening the chamber, it looks the same apparently; it is virtually indistinguishable just to look at. only the person loading it would know, and you have to trust they did their job correctly.

From what I’ve read, it’s a far cry from “a ton of training and expertise”:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/10/24/baldwin-rust-shooting-armorer/

“ In particular, the incident has put a spotlight on the role of a set’s armorer, or a firearms specialist — and the lack of formal training required to become one.”

“There is no standard test to become an armorer, according to Tristano, and training mainly consists of internships or other work under master armorers, the industry term for experienced armorers who oversee those with less experience.”

mace1229 · October 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

PJPOWER said:

So who should be charged with firearm negligence? Alec? The armory person?

I wouldn’t think Baldwin would or should be charged if the industry standard was to have a firearms expert on site and trust his knowledge. I would also think that standard might change to make anyone handling a gun (if they even use real guns after this) be trained and responsible for the final inspection.
I get many actors probably don’t own or use guns and just trust the experts working with them. But honestly, even if I was anti-gun, I’d want to take a safety training course and be able to inspect any firearm someone just hands me and says to go point it at someone and pull the trigger, it’s fine.
If my first sentence is true, I think the standard should change to include anyone who held the gun in the chain of events be held responsible. Don’t just trust someone a gun is empty and take their word for it.

If someone gave you a gun and said “don’t worry, it’s not loaded”, and you pointed it at someone and shot them, who would be liable? In the end, it’s always (with adults anyway)the person holding/pointing/shooting the gun that is responsible for where that bullet lands and the damage it does. I don’t give him a pass just because he is an actor.

But this isn't just any old backyard shenanigans. this is a controlled setting with real experts knowing what is inside the gun and what isn't. Baldwin wouldn't have known just by looking at it. this is one of those cases where the liability, in my view, would only fall on him if:

a) as the producer, knowingly cut corners with the union and safety protocols
b) as an actor, pointed it somewhere he shouldn't have been pointing it

It doesn’t even sound like the person in charge of the guns was very knowledgeable of them. Not sure about “real experts”…
And the actor was obviously pointing it at someone’s mid-section.
My argument is that Baldwin shouldn’t have even had it in his hands if he doesn’t know how to operate it and do his own safety check.
Simple firearm basic safety rules:
”treat every gun as if it were loaded”
”never point at something you do not wish to destroy”

no, there are real experts in this field. from what I've read, there are many variables involved in a prop gun being used safely, so there's a ton of training and expertise involved.

it's just the costume guy moonlighting as a prop gun guy.

doing a "safety check", as I said, would have been moot if it had been baldwin, or even a trained firearm enthusiast. As I stated, a layman wouldn't know the difference between a real loaded gun and a prop gun loaded with blanks, even opening the chamber, it looks the same apparently; it is virtually indistinguishable just to look at. only the person loading it would know, and you have to trust they did their job correctly.

Since this was a western. I’m assuming it’s all old cowboy style revolvers. Would be the worst western ever if they were running around with a 9mm. It’s very easy to check a revolver. Not that difficult to check the chamber of a pistol either, but that doesn’t apply here.
Anyway, my point is that it’s not difficult. With 3 minutes I could teach anyone to check for a live bullet or a blank. It’s just a matter of someone not doing their job as part of a safety check.

mace1229 · October 2021

You can literally see the bullets on most revolvers like that. And if not, if you’re the safety guy in charge, take the 5 seconds to remove each round and check for yourself.

static111 · October 2021

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-is-hawking-shockingly-tacky-alex-baldwin-kills-people-t-shirts

Wow

static111 · October 2021

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-is-hawking-shockingly-tacky-alex-baldwin-kills-people-t-shirts

Wow

Halifax2TheMax · October 2021

static111 said:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-is-hawking-shockingly-tacky-alex-baldwin-kills-people-t-shirts

Wow

Who’s Alex Baldwin? Friend of Brandon? Fucking idiot be idioting.

hedonist · October 2021

Funny, all this Alec speculation, and nothing about two people killed and four injured during a mall shooting in Idaho today.

Ho hum…just another day, folks.

Halifax2TheMax · October 2021

hedonist said:

Funny, all this Alec speculation, and nothing about two people killed and four injured during a mall shooting in Idaho today.

Ho hum…just another day, folks.

It was only two killed. Need 10Xs that to get attention. Ho hum is right. Make it 100X that and you still wouldn’t get meaningful firearms regulation.

HughFreakingDillon · October 2021

hedonist said:

Funny, all this Alec speculation, and nothing about two people killed and four injured during a mall shooting in Idaho today.

Ho hum…just another day, folks.

so talk about it. i certainly don't hear about every single shooting in the US. a famous actor killing a person on set of a movie is big news, like it or not.

hedonist · October 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

hedonist said:

Funny, all this Alec speculation, and nothing about two people killed and four injured during a mall shooting in Idaho today.

Ho hum…just another day, folks.

so talk about it. i certainly don't hear about every single shooting in the US. a famous actor killing a person on set of a movie is big news, like it or not.

Whoa, reading into my post or just defensive? I’m allowed to opine too, dangnabbit. It IS just another day here.

Ho hum!

mickeyrat · October 2021

personally not sure the baldwin thing belongs here. yes a terrible thing happened. its missing a critical element. intent.

aside from the events involving little kids as shooters, the rest involve harm intentions

HughFreakingDillon · October 2021

mickeyrat said:

personally not sure the baldwin thing belongs here. yes a terrible thing happened. its missing a critical element. intent.

aside from the events involving little kids as shooters, the rest involve harm intentions

true, I wondered the same thing myself if it should be here. I suppose one could argue that it's relevant because of the pervasiveness of gun culture and how that might be somewhat intertwined with this incident, but fair point.

HughFreakingDillon · October 2021

hedonist said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

hedonist said:

Funny, all this Alec speculation, and nothing about two people killed and four injured during a mall shooting in Idaho today.

Ho hum…just another day, folks.

so talk about it. i certainly don't hear about every single shooting in the US. a famous actor killing a person on set of a movie is big news, like it or not.

Whoa, reading into my post or just defensive? I’m allowed to opine too, dangnabbit. It IS just another day here.

Ho hum!

not defensive at all, but quite possible I read it wrong. I took as you lamenting that we weren't talking about what you thought would be more important. If I was wrong, I apologize.

America's Gun Violence #2

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