America's Gun Violence

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

tempo_n_groove said:

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

I would agree to 4 of these.

eddiec said:

mace1229 said:

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
- ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
- mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
-Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.

-Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
-Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

eddiec said:

tempo_n_groove said:

eddiec said:

mace1229 said:

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
- ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
- mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
-Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.

-Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
-Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

Train them young then too.

Or don't. And then let them decide when they are adults if they need a gun. The same way religion should be.

eddiec said:

mace1229 said:

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
- ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
- mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
-Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.

-Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
-Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

mace1229 said:

eddiec said:

mace1229 said:

jerparker20 said:

ymalkiel said:

I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

This. 

I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

As for what can be done, here’s a start:
- Background checks for all firearm purchases
- enact a national “red flag” law
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
- mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
- ban gun shows
-mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
- mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
- private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
- offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
- increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
- lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.

I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
- eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
- ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
- mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
- ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
-Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.

-Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
-Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

And to the first point, how is that right? If you're rich enough to hire a personal bodyguard you get firearm protection. If you have a clean record and proper training, but not the money, you dont? Conceal carry shouldn't be just for the rich who can afford to pay someone. 
The jewelry store owner should be allowed to be armed. The coin collector who has a booth at a coin show with $500,000 of merchandise he carries to his car should be allowed to be armed. Same with the watch collector, or the store owner making a large cash deposit. Not just the rich who can pay someone else to do it. 

cutz said:

They Had Muskets; We Have AR-15s – The Two Can Barely Be Compared

The types of guns available at that time were very different from the AR-15s and other semi- and fully-automatic weapons we see on the news these days. In 1791, common guns included muskets and flintlock pistols.

According to the Washington Post, a "Typical Revolutionary-era musket" had a one-round magazine capacity, and it could fire around three effective rounds per minute – in the hands of the most skilled wielder. It's maximum accuracy range had to be within 50 meters. Compare this to a "Typical modern-day AR-15," which has a magazine capacity of 30 rounds, has an effective fire of 45 rounds a minute, and an accuracy range of 550 meters.

These are vastly different weapons.

Firearms In 1791 Were Wildly Inaccurate

Besides only holding one round at a time, the guns of the 1790s had a very low level of accuracy and incredibly short ranges. Not only that either – muskets of the period, including the Brown Bess and Charleville, had no sights at all, aside from an affixed bayonet that one could look down while preparing to shoot. 

As Hugh T. Harrington explains in the Journal of the American Revolution: 

"Normally, the shooter would look down the barrel and align his rear sight (the sight closest to his face) with the front sight and with the target. This cannot be done with the musket since there is no rear sight. Without a rear sight the shooter’s eyeball acts as the rear sight. That would not be a problem if the eyeball could always be placed exactly in the same place each time the musket was fired. But, it cannot be done."

On top of not having sights, muskets had smooth bore barrels, which made their projectiles less stable in flight than those fired from modern rifles.