Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

what's interesting to me is that "both sides" think their cause is righteous. the right thinks so about abortion and freedom. the left for oppression and, by extension, also freedom. 

each side thinks the other is fascist. there are actually examples where both could be considered true. 

many on the left seem to give bill clinton a pass on his sexual history. just because they consider him a good president. i don't see anyone out there protesting him when he appears somewhere. they post pictures of him smiling with GWB (a man who started a war on false pretences, killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people, and because of trump now seem to forget they used to call him a war criminal) and Obama, and seem to take great pride in doing so. 

many, or most, on the left give obama a pass for his drone program that murdered how many innocent lives, but hey, collateral damage and all. he's the best president in history. ironically also got the nobel PEACE prize, even after blowing a wedding party of mostly women and children to bits. 

trump is a piece of human garbage. but he is unapologetic about pandering to the evangelicals and their causes, and that is their main issue, so they support him no matter what he says or incites. does that make them all deplorable? in my opinion, absolutely not. people on both sides of the aisle will look at what their leaders have/have not done and decide where the line is that they won't cross. both sides allow their leaders transgressions if they consider it to be of their own personal or societal or global greater good. 

i've said it before and i'll say it again, labelling an entire group comprised of millions of people based on their support of one man and a few of the issues he promotes, is both lazy and ignorant. 

do i personally believe both sides are the same? no, i don't, but while i do my best to be objective, we're all partisan, myself included. but i also don't lump every single person in with those that do whatever damage it is they do. it's not guilty by association. especially with the sheer numbers we're talking about here. 

Where is the line for how bad things can get before the millions can be held accountable, or is there no such line?  Were Germans not complicit until Dachau or was it slightly before or after?  Were the people that didn’t think it would go that far less complicit?  If Trump/Trumpism is not comparable then why did anyone campaign like it was?

i guess it depends on what you mean by 'accountable'? if you mean lumping them all in as racists and sexists and misogynists and whatnot, there is no line, because doing that is just a silly exercise and really helps no one. 

should we lump all BLM folks with the looters and rioters, so basically saying if you support black lives, then you are a criminal and part of a terrorist ideology? that's as preposterous as it sounds. 

should we lump all mccain supporters in with those that had signs "hang in there, obama" with a picture of him in a noose? 

the only people you can hold accountable are the ones in office or his employ that supported his policies and rhetoric. graham and cruz come to mind. and basically the rest of his admin (mceneny is one of the worst at the moment) that are still doubling down on his dangerous election fraud BS. don't buy their books. don't hire them into cushy media political analyst jobs; nothing. 

The problem being that the votes are what give these people the power.  The votes certainly come from somewhere.  How is the person that is voted in to serve the interests of their constituency more accountable than his or her voting base?  

BLM is a false equivalency.  Last I checked BLM wasn’t a political party, but an ideology.  There are currently no elected members of the BLM party that are calling for and allowing chaos.  In addition if there were a BLM party that had members elected to the highest offices, calling for violence and standing idly by, and also getting re-elected while causing chaos I would say yes the people who voted for them are accountable.  The thing is this is a fictional scenario that doesn’t exist, Trumpism however is alive and well and 70 million+ people voted for it.  If this election was in fact a referendum on Donald trump, that means that a vote for Trump equals a vote in support for all that he stands for.

i was never trying to equate anything, as there really is no true equivalent to trumpism. just trying to get the closest possible example. the simple fact of the matter is a majority of the nation simply isn't engaged in politics. yes, they may vote, but they aren't on twitter, they have no or little awareness about his tweets, only possibly his policies because if they vote republican they are tuning into right leaning news sources and those don't report on his bullshit. or all they watch is local news that doesn't report on that stuff at all, or very little. 

i'd be curious if there was any studies done on how many people go to the voting booths not even knowing the names of the down ballot candidates, that they only vote based on the letter next to their name. i honestly think that it would serve the public better if those letters were removed. it might help getting people more engaged and actually knowing the issues instead of just the party they've been voting for the last 30 years. 

In response to the first bolded part, that would mean that this election wasn’t a referendum on trump, it was just another harmless (D) vs (R) presidential power struggle, decided by the majority that only care about the R or D by someone’s name.

As for the second bolded part. I agree 💯 and think this would be great, but as many here will tell you the United States is a two party system blah blah blah and I doubt those political interest groups known as the two major parties would ever let go of that power.   I’m a fan of this in the form of ranked choice voting, but again in the very unimaginative American system of two party rule I don’t think ranked choice would sway things much because the pesky D and R would continue to be attached.

I think that we have a failed political system that was designed by the political and financial elite of centuries ago that served their needs well, but needs updating to serve the diverse population and equitable needs of today.  As we have seen over the course of the last 40 years all of the inherent weaknesses of our system have slowly been exploited to get us here.  I’m not certain that this system will hold but I hope my country is bold enough to bring about some sort of realignment.  That is going to take acknowledgment of the nastiest most hateful and racist parts before that healing can begin.  Can we collectively look inward for the amount of time that will take, or will we just continue limping along, because like so many of our corporations we have just become to big to fail?

The referendum was about multiple issues,  not just racial justice.  His handling of COVID was his death knell. It's obvious when you look at Georgia that there was substantial ticket splitting.  Once further analysis is done,  i think it'll see more of that across the country. Looking at the house and senate,  there's no evidence currently that the election was a referendum on republicans in general,  rather than Trump 

So if it was a referendum on Donnie boy, wouldn’t someone that voted for Trump be for trump and his policies?  This is where I find the inability to separate ones support from a person as morally bankrupt and repugnant as Donald Trump from
them at least having a passive approval of him and his policies.  Any Trump voter I’ve talked to basically says something along the lines of I don’t care about all that other stuff I only care about (issue that pertains to me), how is that not giving approval to the rest of the malarkey?

Yes that’s exactly what they say.  I’ve argued with my CEO 10x about this.  All he cares about is the regulatory environment.  I tell him I care about more than the p&l. All the race stuff is noise to him whereas the regulations are real.  I try to convince him otherwise but I dont call him a racist or evil because first I don’t think he is and second it’s not going to be the argument that convinces him of his “folly”.

Sounds like we have the same approach to trying to discuss this with people.  I still don’t understand the disconnect from the misogyny, bigotry and racism getting a pass, if someone I know says some dumb shit I try to call it out.  If someone is ok with the potus stoking that climate in favor of their various economic and regulatory interests I just don’t understand how being ok with racism does not equal racism. I understand not calling someone a racist that may not understand that they are taking part in and enabling racist behavior and racism in favor of a long term argument to try to get someone to see the light.  At a certain point how many times can we let people gloss over these issues in favor of our personal comfort and ease at work, home or our social groups because we don’t want to hurt their feelings by pointing out at the very least their racist enabling?

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

what's interesting to me is that "both sides" think their cause is righteous. the right thinks so about abortion and freedom. the left for oppression and, by extension, also freedom. 

each side thinks the other is fascist. there are actually examples where both could be considered true. 

many on the left seem to give bill clinton a pass on his sexual history. just because they consider him a good president. i don't see anyone out there protesting him when he appears somewhere. they post pictures of him smiling with GWB (a man who started a war on false pretences, killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people, and because of trump now seem to forget they used to call him a war criminal) and Obama, and seem to take great pride in doing so. 

many, or most, on the left give obama a pass for his drone program that murdered how many innocent lives, but hey, collateral damage and all. he's the best president in history. ironically also got the nobel PEACE prize, even after blowing a wedding party of mostly women and children to bits. 

trump is a piece of human garbage. but he is unapologetic about pandering to the evangelicals and their causes, and that is their main issue, so they support him no matter what he says or incites. does that make them all deplorable? in my opinion, absolutely not. people on both sides of the aisle will look at what their leaders have/have not done and decide where the line is that they won't cross. both sides allow their leaders transgressions if they consider it to be of their own personal or societal or global greater good. 

i've said it before and i'll say it again, labelling an entire group comprised of millions of people based on their support of one man and a few of the issues he promotes, is both lazy and ignorant. 

do i personally believe both sides are the same? no, i don't, but while i do my best to be objective, we're all partisan, myself included. but i also don't lump every single person in with those that do whatever damage it is they do. it's not guilty by association. especially with the sheer numbers we're talking about here. 

Where is the line for how bad things can get before the millions can be held accountable, or is there no such line?  Were Germans not complicit until Dachau or was it slightly before or after?  Were the people that didn’t think it would go that far less complicit?  If Trump/Trumpism is not comparable then why did anyone campaign like it was?

i guess it depends on what you mean by 'accountable'? if you mean lumping them all in as racists and sexists and misogynists and whatnot, there is no line, because doing that is just a silly exercise and really helps no one. 

should we lump all BLM folks with the looters and rioters, so basically saying if you support black lives, then you are a criminal and part of a terrorist ideology? that's as preposterous as it sounds. 

should we lump all mccain supporters in with those that had signs "hang in there, obama" with a picture of him in a noose? 

the only people you can hold accountable are the ones in office or his employ that supported his policies and rhetoric. graham and cruz come to mind. and basically the rest of his admin (mceneny is one of the worst at the moment) that are still doubling down on his dangerous election fraud BS. don't buy their books. don't hire them into cushy media political analyst jobs; nothing. 

The problem being that the votes are what give these people the power.  The votes certainly come from somewhere.  How is the person that is voted in to serve the interests of their constituency more accountable than his or her voting base?  

BLM is a false equivalency.  Last I checked BLM wasn’t a political party, but an ideology.  There are currently no elected members of the BLM party that are calling for and allowing chaos.  In addition if there were a BLM party that had members elected to the highest offices, calling for violence and standing idly by, and also getting re-elected while causing chaos I would say yes the people who voted for them are accountable.  The thing is this is a fictional scenario that doesn’t exist, Trumpism however is alive and well and 70 million+ people voted for it.  If this election was in fact a referendum on Donald trump, that means that a vote for Trump equals a vote in support for all that he stands for.

i was never trying to equate anything, as there really is no true equivalent to trumpism. just trying to get the closest possible example. the simple fact of the matter is a majority of the nation simply isn't engaged in politics. yes, they may vote, but they aren't on twitter, they have no or little awareness about his tweets, only possibly his policies because if they vote republican they are tuning into right leaning news sources and those don't report on his bullshit. or all they watch is local news that doesn't report on that stuff at all, or very little. 

i'd be curious if there was any studies done on how many people go to the voting booths not even knowing the names of the down ballot candidates, that they only vote based on the letter next to their name. i honestly think that it would serve the public better if those letters were removed. it might help getting people more engaged and actually knowing the issues instead of just the party they've been voting for the last 30 years. 

In response to the first bolded part, that would mean that this election wasn’t a referendum on trump, it was just another harmless (D) vs (R) presidential power struggle, decided by the majority that only care about the R or D by someone’s name.

As for the second bolded part. I agree 💯 and think this would be great, but as many here will tell you the United States is a two party system blah blah blah and I doubt those political interest groups known as the two major parties would ever let go of that power.   I’m a fan of this in the form of ranked choice voting, but again in the very unimaginative American system of two party rule I don’t think ranked choice would sway things much because the pesky D and R would continue to be attached.

I think that we have a failed political system that was designed by the political and financial elite of centuries ago that served their needs well, but needs updating to serve the diverse population and equitable needs of today.  As we have seen over the course of the last 40 years all of the inherent weaknesses of our system have slowly been exploited to get us here.  I’m not certain that this system will hold but I hope my country is bold enough to bring about some sort of realignment.  That is going to take acknowledgment of the nastiest most hateful and racist parts before that healing can begin.  Can we collectively look inward for the amount of time that will take, or will we just continue limping along, because like so many of our corporations we have just become to big to fail?

The referendum was about multiple issues,  not just racial justice.  His handling of COVID was his death knell. It's obvious when you look at Georgia that there was substantial ticket splitting.  Once further analysis is done,  i think it'll see more of that across the country. Looking at the house and senate,  there's no evidence currently that the election was a referendum on republicans in general,  rather than Trump 

So if it was a referendum on Donnie boy, wouldn’t someone that voted for Trump be for trump and his policies?  This is where I find the inability to separate ones support from a person as morally bankrupt and repugnant as Donald Trump from
them at least having a passive approval of him and his policies.  Any Trump voter I’ve talked to basically says something along the lines of I don’t care about all that other stuff I only care about (issue that pertains to me), how is that not giving approval to the rest of the malarkey?

Yes that’s exactly what they say.  I’ve argued with my CEO 10x about this.  All he cares about is the regulatory environment.  I tell him I care about more than the p&l. All the race stuff is noise to him whereas the regulations are real.  I try to convince him otherwise but I dont call him a racist or evil because first I don’t think he is and second it’s not going to be the argument that convinces him of his “folly”.

Sounds like we have the same approach to trying to discuss this with people.  I still don’t understand the disconnect from the misogyny, bigotry and racism getting a pass, if someone I know says some dumb shit I try to call it out.  If someone is ok with the potus stoking that climate in favor of their various economic and regulatory interests I just don’t understand how being ok with racism does not equal racism. I understand not calling someone a racist that may not understand that they are taking part in and enabling racist behavior and racism in favor of a long term argument to try to get someone to see the light.  At a certain point how many times can we let people gloss over these issues in favor of our personal comfort and ease at work, home or our social groups because we don’t want to hurt their feelings by pointing out at the very least their racist enabling?

Well it's a poor decision for me and my family to call my boss a racist.  Probably not going to achieve the desired result so calling it a case of personal ease is probably not quite right. In fact,  I'm not sure there are many companies where you can call another employees racist without some ramification. I'm pretty sure if one of my people called another one a racist,  I'd have a problem with it.  

I’m in the same boat when it comes to bottom up criticism that could directly effect my employment.  In a middle out context If within my own peer group I find someone doing something that is enabling racist behavior I am going to take the time to point out what they are doing and that it in and of itself is racism to passively let it go.  If that means I lose a friend etc so be it at least it was worth a try.  

And isn't knowing they voted for Trump meeting that standard by the very context of this conversation? And I think you said when you were on that last job you didn't argue with your pro Trump peers.  I argue with my republican ceo and other executives all the time about politics. But what I don't do and won't do is call them evil and racist because of the nature of their vote.

Ha I try not to, but at a certain point I can only take so much facts before I go on a tirade and get ostracized.  Now that I am on my last project I have been holding nothing back.  When I bring up the racism thing they basically say well your wrong because I can’t be racist for supporting trump since Trump isn’t racist.   If I could hook a perpetual motion machine to their circular logic we could live in a green society!

static111 said:

Imagine if we held trump voters to the same standards that Bernie voters have been held up to.

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

I guarantee every one here knows someone at work that voted for Trump.  Have you called them evil and racist yet? If not,  why not? Have you not the courage of your convictions? Is it easier to shoot of on an anonymous message board than actually putting your job at risk? Cmon. Let's make tomorrow "Call a peer an evil racist day". Everyone report out how that goes. 

I would never call someone evil it’s too hard to define the definition. It also has to involve the acceptance of a certain fantasy element that their is some type of primordial or godlike power.  Bad, ignorant, misinformed, yeah. Evil no. Racist.  I will point out racism. Fuck I will accept that my inaction to sometimes say anything about someone else’s racism enabling for the personal security of keeping myself employed is to a degree a racist act.  If you see something say something.  If you can’t say something at the very least acknowledge to yourself that you are up against a racist power structure and are trying to pick your battles.  I’m not advocating being an all day SJW, but we as a country need to start doing better about this stuff because the next Bannon acolyte hatched from the depths of parler and q anon coming into power is a very real possibility if we don’t.

But you're talking about an actual action or words at work that are racist,  right? If so then you absolutely say something.  That's different than saying it because of their vote.

Yes for instance a poor photo shop of Obama or something like that gets called out.   I remember when the company I’m working for bought is out last October and we were on an orientation conference call regarding benefits  and my new boss said (my name) doesn’t get any because he is a democrat and people above him laughed.   I’m just using that as an example of the environment I’m hearing these things in.  In that situation I’m pretty powerless to do anything but keep my mouth shut.  So many times when I’m on here saying something inflammatory it is because for the most part the trump supporters I am dealing with on a day to day basis are the vermin that I am referring to. Which makes it hard for me to believe that others who support him(trump) aren’t much the same at some deep level.  Wednesday and leaving this industry behind can’t come quick enough