End of the American Empire?

myoung321
myoung321 Posts: 2,855
edited April 2020 in A Moving Train

Is Covid-19 the beginning of the end of the American Empire?

The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

LINK

Even if you don’t think it’s likely, it’s always best to be prepared.

Rome reached its peak of military power around the year 107, when Trajan completed the conquest of Dacia (the territory of modern Romania). With Dacia, the empire peaked in size, but I’d argue it was already past its peak by almost every other measure.

The U.S. reached its peak relative to the world, and in some ways its absolute peak, as early as the 1950s. In 1950 this country produced 50% of the world’s GNP and 80% of its vehicles. Now it’s about 21% of world GNP and 5% of its vehicles. It owned two-thirds of the world’s gold reserves; now it holds one-fourth. It was, by a huge margin, the world’s biggest creditor, whereas now it’s the biggest debtor by a huge margin. The income of the average American was by far the highest in the world; today it ranks about eighth, and it’s slipping.

But it’s not just the U.S.—it’s Western civilization that’s in decline. In 1910 Europe controlled almost the whole world—politically, financially, and militarily. Now it’s becoming a Disneyland with real buildings and a petting zoo for the Chinese. It’s even further down the slippery slope than the U.S.

Like America, Rome was founded by refugees—from Troy, at least in myth. Like America, it was ruled by kings in its early history. Later, Romans became self-governing, with several Assemblies and a Senate. Later still, power devolved to the executive, which was likely not an accident.

U.S. founders modeled the country on Rome, all the way down to the architecture of government buildings, the use of the eagle as the national bird, the use of Latin mottos, and the unfortunate use of the fasces—the axe surrounded by rods—as a symbol of state power. Publius, the pseudonymous author of The Federalist Papers, took his name from one of Rome’s first consuls. As it was in Rome, military prowess is at the center of the national identity of the U.S. When you adopt a model in earnest, you grow to resemble it.

A considerable cottage industry has developed comparing ancient and modern times since Edward Gibbon published The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in 1776—the same year as Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nationsand the U.S. Declaration of Independence were written. I’m a big fan of all three, but D&F is not only a great history, it’s very elegant and readable literature. And it’s actually a laugh riot; Gibbon had a subtle wit.

There have been huge advances in our understanding of Rome since Gibbon’s time, driven by archeological discoveries. There were many things he just didn’t know, because he was as much a philologist as an historian, and he based his writing on what the ancients said about themselves.

continue with link above.. 

COVID-19: What the Virus Might Do to the American Empire

Link

Under current CV19 lockdowns, there is much quiet time at home in which to reflect on how dramatically the virus is even now changing our familiar New Cold War world, and how such changes will gather force as the weeks of crisis unfold.

Australia is a good place from which to reflect: an excessively obsequious minor member of the U.S.-led anti-Chinese and anti-Russian Western strategic alliance, Australians are also conflicted by our need to earn a living and our obvious economic dependence on our major trading partner and Asia-Pacific strategic neighbor China. Two contradictory imperatives are gnawing at the minds of thinking Australians.

"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
 


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Comments

  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,086
    Maybe we can build something better and learn from our mistakes.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    I think the decline towards the fall started before this all came about. This will just speed up the process.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    PJ_Soul said:
    I think the decline towards the fall started before this all came about. This will just speed up the process.

    My thoughts exactly.  I can imagine COVID-19 being at least partly responsible for the further collapse of the American Empire but I also see it as having been in decline for a least a few years.   

    And isn't the virus/disease setting the whole world into a tailspin?  After the virus goes away, will everything kind of return to "normal"?  Maybe, but I kind of doubt it.  I don't think anyone has a real clear idea on that one.  Interesting times.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I think the decline towards the fall started before this all came about. This will just speed up the process.

    My thoughts exactly.  I can imagine COVID-19 being at least partly responsible for the further collapse of the American Empire but I also see it as having been in decline for a least a few years.   

    And isn't the virus/disease setting the whole world into a tailspin?  After the virus goes away, will everything kind of return to "normal"?  Maybe, but I kind of doubt it.  I don't think anyone has a real clear idea on that one.  Interesting times.
    I think of it like the world wars, as a whole, things return to something like normal, but there are winners and losers.
    Will we come out of this winners or losers?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    I think the life we live is more precarious than people believe it is...economies are like ecosystems, they are all tied together and interdependent.  Supply chains are starting to break down in odd places, for instance, Brother toner cartridges are backorder unavailable for the foreseeable future.  That's no big deal, but it's an alarm bell in my head.  When little rocks tumble loose, bigger rocks upslope become unstable and an avalanche is more likely. 
    What happens in this country if the food supply chain breaks down to the point where it did during the height of the great depression and the worst of WWII?
    Can we weather it like our great grandparents did?  Something in my gut has me worried that Karen will put on a leather vest and paint her face and go hunting for manflesh.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,854
    We have been waning for years.  Look at many metrics like education, science, life expectancy, etc. 

     Add in this poisonous Donald Trump thing and it has hastened our path.  

    I dont believe the coronavirus changes the hierarchy so to speak.  This is bad everywhere.

    I do hope that this crisis causes an enlightenment for americans.  Everyone realizes the importance of certain federal programs (as opposed to the "destroy! Socialism!" point of view.  Maybe we invest and get serious about education and health care.  Maybe scientists and facts will gain a stronger foothold in the voices of our country.  Maybe we can come together for some obvious enhancements to our government such as campaign reform and term limits for congress?  
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,622
    MayDay10 said:
    We have been waning for years.  Look at many metrics like education, science, life expectancy, etc. 

     Add in this poisonous Donald Trump thing and it has hastened our path.  

    I dont believe the coronavirus changes the hierarchy so to speak.  This is bad everywhere.

    I do hope that this crisis causes an enlightenment for americans.  Everyone realizes the importance of certain federal programs (as opposed to the "destroy! Socialism!" point of view.  Maybe we invest and get serious about education and health care.  Maybe scientists and facts will gain a stronger foothold in the voices of our country.  Maybe we can come together for some obvious enhancements to our government such as campaign reform and term limits for congress?  
    All good points I’d be on board for all of them! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    I believe the end of empire extends through most of the 20th century.  It started with World War I, a war that James Howard Kunstler describes as "the purposeless slaughter that utterly demoralized Western civilization", was ramped up by the creation of  that well intentioned but short-sighted and ultimately unsustainable notion set forth by the G.I. generation called suburbia, and then was rocketed toward disaster by my boomer generation through the something-for-nothing financial schemes my peers set into motion.  And then along came the knock out blow- the inevitable pandemic which we are living and dying through at this very moment.  Our unsustainable economy is obviously  receiving a major hit which will only be exacerbated by the currently proposed pouring out of funny money referred to as a "stimulus package". 

    If the world is not in shambles after the dust settles, I will be surprised.  If humanity finds a more sustainable way to live based on a respect for nature and the limits of resources and energy, and changes some of it's worst behaviors such as frequent and broad travel, the consuming wild life, and the dodging of Darwinian reality with our foolish cleverness, and learns to live more simply and wisely, I will be even more surprised.  One can only hope.



    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • vaggar99
    vaggar99 San Diego USA Posts: 3,431
    The United States has been in decline for sometime.  Just go to Facebook for all the evidence you'll ever need.
  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,086
    vaggar99 said:
    The United States has been in decline for sometime.  Just go to Facebook for all the evidence you'll ever need.
    Truest statement on the boards today!
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • myoung321
    myoung321 Posts: 2,855
    vaggar99 said:
    The United States has been in decline for sometime.  Just go to Facebook for all the evidence you'll ever need.
    True,,,,and the reason I haven't been on facebook for almost 4 years now.. try it, you'll feel better.
    "The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
     


  • vaggar99
    vaggar99 San Diego USA Posts: 3,431
    myoung321 said:
    vaggar99 said:
    The United States has been in decline for sometime.  Just go to Facebook for all the evidence you'll ever need.
    True,,,,and the reason I haven't been on facebook for almost 4 years now.. try it, you'll feel better.
    I happen to enjoy watching slow moving train wrecks.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    vaggar99 said:
    myoung321 said:
    vaggar99 said:
    The United States has been in decline for sometime.  Just go to Facebook for all the evidence you'll ever need.
    True,,,,and the reason I haven't been on facebook for almost 4 years now.. try it, you'll feel better.
    I happen to enjoy watching slow moving train wrecks.

    It's interesting, I'll grant you that, but most of us are going to get hit by at least a little of the burning coal, scalding steam, shrapnel, and flying body parts.  Have your fun now, but  beware!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • vaggar99
    vaggar99 San Diego USA Posts: 3,431
    brianlux said:
    vaggar99 said:
    myoung321 said:
    vaggar99 said:
    The United States has been in decline for sometime.  Just go to Facebook for all the evidence you'll ever need.
    True,,,,and the reason I haven't been on facebook for almost 4 years now.. try it, you'll feel better.
    I happen to enjoy watching slow moving train wrecks.

    It's interesting, I'll grant you that, but most of us are going to get hit by at least a little of the burning coal, scalding steam, shrapnel, and flying body parts.  Have your fun now, but  beware!
    I'm standing closest.  I'll make sure everyone else stays at a safe distance.
  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,086
    Nothing to see here let’s get back to “normalcy” ASAP. As a millennial that has lived through 9/11 the 2008 crisis and now this.  I’d welcome some change. For most of us the old American way of doing business hasn’t delivered.  This crisis has definitely yet again exposed the socio economic and racial lines in this country, but all most seem to want is getting their 401k back on track.  Must be nice to even have a 401k.  Hopefully corona doesn’t bring our fall but offers us a chance to look at all of our failings and for once remedy them. 

    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,097
    we are in the decline for sure. i thought things were bad under w bush, but that was child's play compared to what we are in with a russian asset and his family running the show.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,117
    we are in the decline for sure. i thought things were bad under w bush, but that was child's play compared to what we are in with a russian asset and his family running the show.
    Did you think we were in decline during Obama s presidency?  Personally I did not. Republicans thought the country was shit during Obama, now it is great once again.  I think it all depends on your political views.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    mcgruff10 said:
    we are in the decline for sure. i thought things were bad under w bush, but that was child's play compared to what we are in with a russian asset and his family running the show.
    Did you think we were in decline during Obama s presidency?  Personally I did not. Republicans thought the country was shit during Obama, now it is great once again.  I think it all depends on your political views.  
    I sure did!  As a society, as a species...  Even when there are rays of hope, there's still just too many stupid people in the world lol
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • FiveBelow
    FiveBelow Posts: 1,336
    mcgruff10 said:
    we are in the decline for sure. i thought things were bad under w bush, but that was child's play compared to what we are in with a russian asset and his family running the show.
    Did you think we were in decline during Obama s presidency?  Personally I did not. Republicans thought the country was shit during Obama, now it is great once again.  I think it all depends on your political views.  
    Bingo. I'd say less than 10% of supporters actually hold the same standards for their party as the other, and that is probably being too generous.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,097
    mcgruff10 said:
    we are in the decline for sure. i thought things were bad under w bush, but that was child's play compared to what we are in with a russian asset and his family running the show.
    Did you think we were in decline during Obama s presidency?  Personally I did not. Republicans thought the country was shit during Obama, now it is great once again.  I think it all depends on your political views.  
    i thought the country was doing okay. economy was getting better, more people had health insurance. but as a species we were on the decline with climate change and the lack of action from us. it is worse now though because the GOP and the blue dog dems under obama  made it impossible for us to act, let alone lead on the issue.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."