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Something about teacher's pay...

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,399
    edited February 2020
    Then read the article. 

    Hahahaha people work 8-5 with an hour lunch? Hahahahaha you sound like my grandma.

    I would guess that I work 50-55 hours a week normally and my wife works closer to the 60-70 and for months straight it’ll be more like 80.
    So you are saying Scandinavia does another thing correctly in other words?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    So you are saying Scandinavia does another thing correctly in other words?
    Certainly do some things better. But I would say that your statement assumes that work is not actually enjoyable for some people. ;)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    Do people imagine that lawyers or accountants--if they were only employed nine months of the year--could just go lawyer/accountant somewhere else during those other 3 months?  
    Probably not a good comparison because yes they could ;)

    but I’m not really sure the point. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    Are you a salaried employee?
    Yup
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    edited February 2020
    Yup
    K. Some rough math, based on your posts/numbers. I believe you make at least 100k/year, so I'll use that as my number. If you work 55 hours/week, you make roughly $35-38/hour (you'll note that I'm generously not counting any vacation time). The average teacher makes around $60,000. According to the article you posted, the average teacher works somewhere north of 1800 hours in a year, which means they make between $33 and $34/hour. 

    So, a simple question: do you think you should make more--on a per-hour basis--than the average teacher?
    Post edited by ecdanc on
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Probably not a good comparison because yes they could ;)

    but I’m not really sure the point. 
    Really, you think a law firm would just be like, "sure, we'll hire you for 3 months, knowing you're going to quit at the end of that time"?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    K. Some rough math, based on your posts/numbers. You make somewhere around 100k (or plan to break that barrier soon). If you work 55 hours/week, you make roughly $35-38/hour (you'll note that I'm generously not counting any vacation time). The average teacher makes around $60,000. According to the article you posted, the average teacher works somewhere north of 1800 hours in a year, which means they make between $33 and $34/hour. 

    So, a simple question: do you think you should make more--on a per-hour basis--than the average teacher?
    Ummm yeah I do. But I’m also ok with teachers making more. 

    Personally I feel supporting schools with funding so they have everything they need to do their jobs is the #1 priority. 

    I’ve never said they were overpaid. Just that they are an interesting case. And like that article said, the value of the job should help determine that pay.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    But I’ll be fair, my wife deserves it more than me. :)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    Really, you think a law firm would just be like, "sure, we'll hire you for 3 months, knowing you're going to quit at the end of that time"?
    You don’t have to work for a law firm to work as a lawyer. I k ow someone on dialysis that works part time lawyer gigs that can fit into his new life and schedule.  My point was, I understand your point and just think you picked a terrible job as the example 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,399
    edited February 2020
    You don’t have to work for a law firm to work as a lawyer. I k ow someone on dialysis that works part time lawyer gigs that can fit into his new life and schedule.  My point was, I understand your point and just think you picked a terrible job as the example 
    Not that is has much to do with this theoretical fantasy -- but most often here you are not allowed to go work for competitors or sometimes even in the same field when employed. I would be surprised if that is not true also in the U S of A.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Ummm yeah I do. But I’m also ok with teachers making more. 

    Personally I feel supporting schools with funding so they have everything they need to do their jobs is the #1 priority. 

    I’ve never said they were overpaid. Just that they are an interesting case. And like that article said, the value of the job should help determine that pay.
    Well, at least we've identified the root of the disagreement. I think teachers should make more than you. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    ecdanc said:
    Well, at least we've identified the root of the disagreement. I think teachers should make more than you. 
    Follow-up question for Cincy: what jobs do you think should make less than teachers? Accountants? Plumbers? Yoga instructors? Surgeons? Truck drivers? 
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,761
    Thank you for posting this. My only objection to the article is the use of the word "shirk" to describe teachers who don't work long hours. It implies that teachers who work an 8 hour day are irresponsible, going back to what a poster (I think PJPower?) said before about the bias toward working excessively as a measure of good teaching.

    The conclusion to this article hits the nail on the head:  "The bottom line on deciding on compensation is whether you’re paying enough to get a sufficiently large supply of sufficiently good employees. In other words, if you think we have more great teachers than we need you should be okay with lower compensation rates. Contrariwise, if you think we need more great teachers than we have on board then you should want to raise salaries. That’s how a market system works—you get what you pay for."  Given the current REAL teacher shortage in the nation (which I posted about earlier in an article from the Economic Policy Institute) -- I would argue that paying teachers more would help fill the positions that go unfilled every year and help alleviate the attrition rate which is decimating especially to high-needs schools.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    Well, at least we've identified the root of the disagreement. I think teachers should make more than you. 
    You don’t even know what I do ;)

    That probably means you think teachers should make more than everyone? Every grade level? 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    Thank you for posting this. My only objection to the article is the use of the word "shirk" to describe teachers who don't work long hours. It implies that teachers who work an 8 hour day are irresponsible, going back to what a poster (I think PJPower?) said before about the bias toward working excessively as a measure of good teaching.

    The conclusion to this article hits the nail on the head:  "The bottom line on deciding on compensation is whether you’re paying enough to get a sufficiently large supply of sufficiently good employees. In other words, if you think we have more great teachers than we need you should be okay with lower compensation rates. Contrariwise, if you think we need more great teachers than we have on board then you should want to raise salaries. That’s how a market system works—you get what you pay for."  Given the current REAL teacher shortage in the nation (which I posted about earlier in an article from the Economic Policy Institute) -- I would argue that paying teachers more would help fill the positions that go unfilled every year and help alleviate the attrition rate which is decimating especially to high-needs schools.
    Yeah I was kinda surprised others did hit on this part because I felt it was the most eye opening statement. Hard to argue with it. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    Follow-up question for Cincy: what jobs do you think should make less than teachers? Accountants? Plumbers? Yoga instructors? Surgeons? Truck drivers? 
    I don’t think I get to decide. It depends on how many people can do and are willing to do the job. The market helps decide. And you can’t group all “accountants” into 1 lump...any more than you can lump all “engineers” or all “teachers”. They are doing different work.

    You are the only one that said any specific person or group should make less than a teacher. Based on your calculation I’m going to go ask for a raise though, thanks!
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    You don’t even know what I do ;)

    That probably means you think teachers should make more than everyone? Every grade level? 
    No, but I've seen enough posts from you to rule out a lot of areas. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    I don’t think I get to decide. It depends on how many people can do and are willing to do the job. The market helps decide. And you can’t group all “accountants” into 1 lump...any more than you can lump all “engineers” or all “teachers”. They are doing different work.

    You are the only one that said any specific person or group should make less than a teacher. Based on your calculation I’m going to go ask for a raise though, thanks!
    See, I have a much simpler equation. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    See, I have a much simpler equation. 
    Yet you never post it. Just cryptic one liners. You’d fail your students for this nonsense 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Breakfast of Champions!
    I prefer this side of the conversation vs this “against teachers” bullshit. 

    What a ridiculous conclusion to draw. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Yet you never post it. Just cryptic one liners. You’d fail your students for this nonsense 
     
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    edited February 2020
    Still can’t manage an original thought. 

    And then you get to define “abilities” and “needs”?
    Post edited by cincybearcat on
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Still can’t manage an original thought. 

    And then you get to detention “abilities” and “needs”?
    You’d be well-served avoiding original thoughts. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    So we took this long to figure out what we already knew? You’re a communist. Cool. What a waste of time.

    (where do you live/teach anyhow? No need to be specific...US? What state?)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat said:

     But I would say that your statement assumes that work is not actually enjoyable for some people. ;)
    ?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    So we took this long to figure out what we already knew? You’re a communist. Cool. What a waste of time.

    (where do you live/teach anyhow? No need to be specific...US? What state?)
    Kansas
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ?
    Some people like working...they enjoy their work. If the only goal is to work as little as possible and go home then less hours are always good. But some people enjoy their work and get fulfillment from it
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    So we took this long to figure out what we already knew? You’re a communist. Cool. What a waste of time.

    (where do you live/teach anyhow? No need to be specific...US? What state?)
    What do you do?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,765
    ecdanc said:
    What do you do?
    I work in HSE for manufacturing. Ironically you’d probably like the work I do ;)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Some people like working...they enjoy their work. If the only goal is to work as little as possible and go home then less hours are always good. But some people enjoy their work and get fulfillment from it
    8 hours work hours I would guess in the modern world is quite the standard (40h/ week)(?)... having breaks isn't about "not wanting to work".

    And working 9 to 5 without a break, in what way is that working more than 8 to 5 with a lunch break? 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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