History of the treatment of Native Peoples in the Americas..

mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,320
edited June 2019 in A Moving Train
I didnt search if there was one. And I didnt want to derail the Dem thread any longer. Meltdown is right, it isnt discissed nearly enough or even loudly when it is.

I imagine a place to share knowledge, links to literature, argue somewhat about present treatment.

I am personally ashamed of this as well as other aspects of our history.

I did the ancestry testing. from that I did some family tree work. I am from Northern Europe. English. Scottish. Welsh. Irish. German. Dutch.

The Dutch arm were directly involved in slave trade. Out of Liberia into Brazil.

 great grandfather(several gens back of course) was killed during Jamestown Massacre. Family entered North America at just about most ports on the east coast. Massachusetts down to Virginia. Early settler shit.....
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14

Comments

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,320
    So, obvious choices are

    Bury My Heart...

    and Zinns UNABRIDGED  Peoples History which not only covers Native peoples but the slave trade both ways....


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Hi!Hi! Posts: 1,865
    Ken Burns documentary The West is really good when it comes to this issue. 
    I might just watch that again soon , it’s been awhile. 
    Some of the parts when they are talking about the history and some Indigenous music kicks in combined with images of Native peoples and scenery, really hits the soul hard. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,549
    A comment from Mickey that was posted on the Dem candidates thread...

    like race. its a whole lot of fucking over to cop to. once you do THEN  you gotta do SOMETHING to make amends for it.... and of course there is listening closely to the experience of those affected which can be hard to do...


    INSTEAD 
    we'll talk about shit the elicits an emotional response for shit that stands a snowballs chance in hell of passage much less benefiting in a meaningful way for most...

    I have to agree, once you admit there is a problem you have to deal with it.

    In Canada, we are currently undergoing reconciliation with our 1st nations people's...it will be a slow process.

    This is likely one of the most atrocious things that were ever done to 1st nations people's.

    The Residential School System (Canada also ripped children away from their parents, in their own country).
    https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/the_residential_school_system/


  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,549
    Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada
    https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1450124405592/1529106060525

    AN ACT OF GENOCIDE: CANADA’S COERCED STERILIZATION OF FIRST NATIONS WOMAN
     https://intercontinentalcry.org/canadas-coerced-sterilization-of-first-nations-women/

    'Genocide' Was Committed Against Canada's Indigenous Women, an Inquiry Found
    https://time.com/5600293/canada-indigenous-women-genocide/
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 24,410
    An amazing book, by Nathaniel Philbrick, author of Heart of the Sea and the Tragedy of the Whaling Ship Essex, of which Mobey Dick was based, is The Last Stand, the story of Custer, Little Big Horn and Sitting Bull. Excellent read but tragic. What a colossal loss.

    https://www.nathanielphilbrick.com/books/the-last-stand/

    And it reads extremely well and is thoroughly historically researched. It ain’t no Bill O’Reilly Killing Lincoln or Kennedy garbage.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,386
    edited June 2019
    mickeyrat said:
    So, obvious choices are

    Bury My Heart...

    and Zinns UNABRIDGED  Peoples History which not only covers Native peoples but the slave trade both ways....


    Both excellent choices, Brown's BMH particularly relating to Native Americans. 

    I asked one of our Indian customers who always goes right to the Native American literature section for some recommendations on books on the subject.  He said, "Well, to start with, I would say you'll learn the most by reading works by Indians."  So I started delving into Native American writers and the ones I've liked the most so far are:

    Paul Chaat Smith (Comanche):  Everything You Know About Indians is Wrong, and Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee.
    Dennis Banks (Ojibwa):  Ojibwa Warrior (and the Rise of the American Indian Movement).
    Charles A. Eastman (Ohiyesa, Sioux):  Indian Heroes and Great Chieftains
    Joseph M. Marshall III (Rosebud Sioux):  The Lakota Way

    As for other non-native writers, I really like Kent Nerburn's workHis Chief Joseph & the Flight of the Nez Perce is massively informative but will tear your heart out.  And his book Neither Wolf Nor Dog is probably the number one book I would recommend for non-native readers. It is a story about Nerburns meeting and spending time spent with a Lakota native name Dan who had read some of Nerburn's earlier work and asked him to write his own story as well.  It really reveals the history and plight of the Native American and lays bare a lot of the misconceptions whites have about Indians- particularly things like cultural appropriation and wanna be's.  In the Introduction, Nerburn says:

    "I realize that there will be a great many Indian readers who will be skeptical about my decision to undertake this task [the book].  You have seen your people misinterpreted, misrepresented, and unconscionably by white writers of both good and bad heart.  To you, my friends, who feel this way, I can only say that you should judge me by what I do. ...most of all, I believe you will see that I am not one of those most pernicious breed of white writer who claims to have met some wisdom bearing elder who has unaccountably decided to share his or her innermost cultural secrets and teachings with me."  Dan shares his life story and the history of Indians, but not the cultural wisdom or secrets.

    As to that statement about "pernicious white writer", I can think of  at least a couple of popular works on Native Americans that fall into this category, one very popular work in particular that most Indian writers scoff at.  Yes, that one. 

    As for why I use of the term "Indian" and "Native American", well, Dan said  "Indian" came about "because Columbus didn't know where he was and "Native American" uses the term "American" which is a European term.  He like using tribe names instead.  So I don't know what else to say.  (Although I like the Canadian "First Nations").  I just don't know all the tribes well enough to do so.

    EDIT:  Even though I mentioned them elsewhere, I should also add B. Traven's Government/Jungle novels for great reading about the historical plight of natives in Mexico, Central and South America.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,320
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So, obvious choices are

    Bury My Heart...

    and Zinns UNABRIDGED  Peoples History which not only covers Native peoples but the slave trade both ways....


    Both excellent choices, Brown's BMH particularly relating to Native Americans. 

    I asked one of our Indian customers who always goes right to the Native American literature section for some recommendations on books on the subject.  He said, "Well, to start with, I would say you'll learn the most by reading works by Indians."  So I started delving into Native American writers and the ones I've liked the most so far are:

    Paul Chaat Smith (Comanche):  Everything You Know About Indians is Wrong, and Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee.
    Dennis Banks (Ojibwa):  Ojibwa Warrior (and the Rise of the American Indian Movement).
    Charles A. Eastman (Ohiyesa, Sioux):  Indian Heroes and Great Chieftains
    Joseph M. Marshall III (Rosebud Sioux):  The Lakota Way

    As for other non-native writers, I really like Kent Nerburn's workHis Chief Joseph & the Flight of the Nez Perce is massively informative but will tear your heart out.  And his book Neither Wolf Nor Dog is probably the number one book I would recommend for non-native readers. It is a story about Nerburns meeting and spending time spent with a Lakota native name Dan who had read some of Nerburn's earlier work and asked him to write his own story as well.  It really reveals the history and plight of the Native American and lays bare a lot of the misconceptions whites have about Indians- particularly things like cultural appropriation and wanna be's.  In the Introduction, Nerburn says:

    "I realize that there will be a great many Indian readers who will be skeptical about my decision to undertake this task [the book].  You have seen your people misinterpreted, misrepresented, and unconscionably by white writers of both good and bad heart.  To you, my friends, who feel this way, I can only say that you should judge me by what I do. ...most of all, I believe you will see that I am not one of those most pernicious breed of white writer who claims to have met some wisdom bearing elder who has unaccountably decided to share his or her innermost cultural secrets and teachings with me."  Dan shares his life story and the history of Indians, but not the cultural wisdom or secrets.

    As to that statement about "pernicious white writer", I can think of  at least a couple of popular works on Native Americans that fall into this category, one very popular work in particular that most Indian writers scoff at.  Yes, that one. 

    As for why I use of the term "Indian" and "Native American", well, Dan said  "Indian" came about "because Columbus didn't know where he was and "Native American" uses the term "American" which is a European term.  He like using tribe names instead.  So I don't know what else to say.  (Although I like the Canadian "First Nations").  I just don't know all the tribes well enough to do so.

    EDIT:  Even though I mentioned them elsewhere, I should also add B. Traven's Government/Jungle novels for great reading about the historical plight of natives in Mexico, Central and South America.
    an out of print book referenced on the Bury wiki page is one I'm going to look into. Late 1800s A Century Of Dishonor by Helen Hunt Jackson. She apparently sent copies to all in Congress to motivate remedy and change. If course nothing came of it .
    E copies are available if a physical copy cant be found...

    thanks for the list....

    call me dense but what THAT one do you refer?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,386
    mickeyrat said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So, obvious choices are

    Bury My Heart...

    and Zinns UNABRIDGED  Peoples History which not only covers Native peoples but the slave trade both ways....


    Both excellent choices, Brown's BMH particularly relating to Native Americans. 

    I asked one of our Indian customers who always goes right to the Native American literature section for some recommendations on books on the subject.  He said, "Well, to start with, I would say you'll learn the most by reading works by Indians."  So I started delving into Native American writers and the ones I've liked the most so far are:

    Paul Chaat Smith (Comanche):  Everything You Know About Indians is Wrong, and Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee.
    Dennis Banks (Ojibwa):  Ojibwa Warrior (and the Rise of the American Indian Movement).
    Charles A. Eastman (Ohiyesa, Sioux):  Indian Heroes and Great Chieftains
    Joseph M. Marshall III (Rosebud Sioux):  The Lakota Way

    As for other non-native writers, I really like Kent Nerburn's workHis Chief Joseph & the Flight of the Nez Perce is massively informative but will tear your heart out.  And his book Neither Wolf Nor Dog is probably the number one book I would recommend for non-native readers. It is a story about Nerburns meeting and spending time spent with a Lakota native name Dan who had read some of Nerburn's earlier work and asked him to write his own story as well.  It really reveals the history and plight of the Native American and lays bare a lot of the misconceptions whites have about Indians- particularly things like cultural appropriation and wanna be's.  In the Introduction, Nerburn says:

    "I realize that there will be a great many Indian readers who will be skeptical about my decision to undertake this task [the book].  You have seen your people misinterpreted, misrepresented, and unconscionably by white writers of both good and bad heart.  To you, my friends, who feel this way, I can only say that you should judge me by what I do. ...most of all, I believe you will see that I am not one of those most pernicious breed of white writer who claims to have met some wisdom bearing elder who has unaccountably decided to share his or her innermost cultural secrets and teachings with me."  Dan shares his life story and the history of Indians, but not the cultural wisdom or secrets.

    As to that statement about "pernicious white writer", I can think of  at least a couple of popular works on Native Americans that fall into this category, one very popular work in particular that most Indian writers scoff at.  Yes, that one. 

    As for why I use of the term "Indian" and "Native American", well, Dan said  "Indian" came about "because Columbus didn't know where he was and "Native American" uses the term "American" which is a European term.  He like using tribe names instead.  So I don't know what else to say.  (Although I like the Canadian "First Nations").  I just don't know all the tribes well enough to do so.

    EDIT:  Even though I mentioned them elsewhere, I should also add B. Traven's Government/Jungle novels for great reading about the historical plight of natives in Mexico, Central and South America.
    an out of print book referenced on the Bury wiki page is one I'm going to look into. Late 1800s A Century Of Dishonor by Helen Hunt Jackson. She apparently sent copies to all in Congress to motivate remedy and change. If course nothing came of it .
    E copies are available if a physical copy cant be found...

    thanks for the list....

    call me dense but what THAT one do you refer?
    Thanks for the Helen Hunt Jackson recommendation, I will look for it.

    I was referring to John Neidhardt's Black Elk Speaks.   I'm sorry for being so vague about that  "most pernicious breed of white writer who claims to have met some wisdom bearing elder who has unaccountably decided to share his or her innermost cultural secrets and teachings" by saying that book.  I don't like to say negative things about books (or music, for that matter), but this book is practically despised by many Native Americans, particularly Native American writers. Critics point out that Neidhardt exaggerated or altered Black Elks words to make the book more interesting and marketable to white audiences. Years ago, I had someone tell me I had to read that book because it was so full of wisdom and spiritual insight.  This was someone I know and very much like but years later, I came to discover she (as I had, when I read the book) had been mislead by a white author trying to glamorize and polish a Native American experience.  This is why I like Kent Nerburn's Neither Wolf Nor Dog so much- his Lakota subject, Dan, makes very clear many non-native misconceptions about indigenous peoples.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,549
    About the Canadian Native Flag



    Looks like some great suggestion on books to read...thanks Brian and Mickey for the suggestion... :)
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,549
    edited June 2019
    Native Land



    Looks like some great suggestion on books to read...thanks Brian and Mickey for the suggestion... :)
    A good resource to see 1st nation territory...
    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,320
    Native Land



    Looks like some great suggestion on books to read...thanks Brian and Mickey for the suggestion... :)
    A good resource to see 1st nation territory...
    that flag is badass, says, WE are part of the greater whole......
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,549
    edited July 2019
    Native American civil rightshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights

    Native American "government" is not government in the western sense of authority and control, but is more like leadership over a community.


    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,320
    Native American civil rightshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights

    Native American "government" is not government in the western sense of authority and control, but is more like leadership over a community.


    which seems to correlate to  traditional tribal leadership ..  

    some good lessons to be learned from tribal culture throughout history...
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,386
    mickeyrat said:
    Native American civil rightshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights

    Native American "government" is not government in the western sense of authority and control, but is more like leadership over a community.


    which seems to correlate to  traditional tribal leadership ..  

    some good lessons to be learned from tribal culture throughout history...
    Oh man, yes.  We could do with a bit less "king-o-the-hill" government and a lot more tribal style leadership!
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,386
    One day several years ago, a customer came into the bookstore who i knew to be Native American.  I had become interested in learning more about Indian culture and history and asked this fellow for a recommendation.  He said, "Well, I would start by reading books written by Indians".  That proved to be useful advice.  The best way to get a clear perspective on Native culture and history is from an Indian. 

    Over the years, I have discovered that some supposedly "must read" books about Indians written by white writers are better off ignored at best, scorned at worst.  On the other hand, not all books written by white writers about Indians are trash.  A few are excellent.  The best I know of is Kent Nerburn's Neither Wold Nor Dog

    This fine book has also been made into a film and that movie does the book justice in big ways.  I just can't say enough about how great I think it is. Dave Bald Eagle, who plays the old man Dan in the movie, saw the film before he died (at age 97) and said "it's the only film I've been in about my people that told the truth."

    The book:


    The film trailer:





    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










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