The Democratic Candidates

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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    fife said:
    mrussel1 said:
    So question on the lack of doctors and residents... could this be related to the pay,  if they are government employees (are they)?  In the States,  our brightest enter medical school because it's very prestigious and well paying.  Could UHC/M4A change that dynamic?
    I don't know if this was a question about the lack of doctors in canada but i think it is.  I don't have any stats that show the lack of doctors has anything to do with pay to be honest so can't answer that question.  but to answer the question if they are government workers the answer is no.  of course some people have a different opinion but what it means to be owned by the government. 

    I don't know if you read the article i posted early but here is a quote talking about the same concern medical schools are having in america.

    " A survey by the Association of American Medical Colleges found that 78% of medical school deans are concerned about the ability of incoming students to find residency positions of their choice nationwide. The problem could end up being worse there because unlike in Canada, where provincial governments control the number of residency positions, in the US any hospital can set up a residency program and determine how many residents will be admitted."



    Good point on the distinction of gov't workers.  What I mean is not.. does their paycheck originate from a gov't contract.  I'm more asking if the gov't is actually their employer, controls their raises, individual performance assessment, etc.  Sounds like you are saying no in that case.  
    As far as the available residency positions, I'm a bit confused on the quote from the article.  The way I interpret it (I'm not in the medical field) is that in the States, the Deans are concerned that choice for the incoming residents may be limited.  But this limitation is driven by the private hospitals not wanting/needing residents in the fields that the incoming residents want.  This seems like a supply/demand issue, one that I am okay with it, since it's market driven.  I don't believe medical schools play a role in controlling what the hospitals take for residents.  

    Regardless, my broader concern is about having our best and brightest in the medical field.  I'm most interested to know if that's the case in Canada; that the medical fields draw the strongest people and are the highest paid fields. And that the higher the skill level, the higher the paid.  In other words, in the States, average salaries of family practice doctors are lower than cardiologists.  
    The 10k foot concern for moving to a system similar to Canada, is that when you take the profit motive and choice out of the field, does the quality of care and availability of efficient service go down.  I hear some Canadians say "no" and others like @Meltdown99 say yes.  My only correlation in the States is the VA, and that's not a positive comparison.  

    Sorry for the long winded post.  This reply was for @oftenreading as well.  I'm a bit unsure if you mean med school training or residency when you are talking about training positions, simply because it sounds like the universities have control of the residency process.  I think that's different than here.  
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,114
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    mcgruff10 said:


    How is this a drinking game?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    mrussel1 said:
    fife said:
    mrussel1 said:
    So question on the lack of doctors and residents... could this be related to the pay,  if they are government employees (are they)?  In the States,  our brightest enter medical school because it's very prestigious and well paying.  Could UHC/M4A change that dynamic?
    I don't know if this was a question about the lack of doctors in canada but i think it is.  I don't have any stats that show the lack of doctors has anything to do with pay to be honest so can't answer that question.  but to answer the question if they are government workers the answer is no.  of course some people have a different opinion but what it means to be owned by the government. 

    I don't know if you read the article i posted early but here is a quote talking about the same concern medical schools are having in america.

    " A survey by the Association of American Medical Colleges found that 78% of medical school deans are concerned about the ability of incoming students to find residency positions of their choice nationwide. The problem could end up being worse there because unlike in Canada, where provincial governments control the number of residency positions, in the US any hospital can set up a residency program and determine how many residents will be admitted."



    Good point on the distinction of gov't workers.  What I mean is not.. does their paycheck originate from a gov't contract.  I'm more asking if the gov't is actually their employer, controls their raises, individual performance assessment, etc.  Sounds like you are saying no in that case.  
    As far as the available residency positions, I'm a bit confused on the quote from the article.  The way I interpret it (I'm not in the medical field) is that in the States, the Deans are concerned that choice for the incoming residents may be limited.  But this limitation is driven by the private hospitals not wanting/needing residents in the fields that the incoming residents want.  This seems like a supply/demand issue, one that I am okay with it, since it's market driven.  I don't believe medical schools play a role in controlling what the hospitals take for residents.  

    Regardless, my broader concern is about having our best and brightest in the medical field.  I'm most interested to know if that's the case in Canada; that the medical fields draw the strongest people and are the highest paid fields. And that the higher the skill level, the higher the paid.  In other words, in the States, average salaries of family practice doctors are lower than cardiologists.  
    The 10k foot concern for moving to a system similar to Canada, is that when you take the profit motive and choice out of the field, does the quality of care and availability of efficient service go down.  I hear some Canadians say "no" and others like @Meltdown99 say yes.  My only correlation in the States is the VA, and that's not a positive comparison.  

    Sorry for the long winded post.  This reply was for @oftenreading as well.  I'm a bit unsure if you mean med school training or residency when you are talking about training positions, simply because it sounds like the universities have control of the residency process.  I think that's different than here.  
    In Ontario, most family Drs are considered self-employed.  Those Drs. bill OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) and OHIP pays those Drs.  OHIP fees are supposed to be negotiated with an organization that represents the Drs.  No matter the government, the Drs are often butting heads over fees with the government and currently I believe the Drs. are still trying to get a better agreement, the old agreement expired.  Drs can also work in hospitals and private clinics and are likely paid an hourly rate in those places and the employer bills OHIP.

    Quotas are placed on medical school acceptance.  A real problem in healthcare in Ontario (according to my Dr. is that many Drs. are going into specialties where the pay is much higher, leaving a shortage of family Drs.  My own Dr 3 sons are all Drs working in specialty medicine and his 4th child, his daughter his also going into specialty medicine.

    As for the quality of care.  I have a couple of recent stays at our hospitals...they suck.  Usually overcrowded and many times if you are being admitted you must wait for discharge to get a room.  A term that is used often used when referring to Ontario Hospitals is "hallway medicine".

    But as far as I'm concerned our Drs. are saints...they could easily make much more in the US...so the ones that stay are saints.

    I am assuming that your government shells out more for healthcare because of Medicaid (or whatever its called that serves low-income people), is because your hospitals are private and the government has less control.  It's easier to manage health care cost when the government controls the system...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    edited August 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    fife said:
    mrussel1 said:
    So question on the lack of doctors and residents... could this be related to the pay,  if they are government employees (are they)?  In the States,  our brightest enter medical school because it's very prestigious and well paying.  Could UHC/M4A change that dynamic?
    I don't know if this was a question about the lack of doctors in canada but i think it is.  I don't have any stats that show the lack of doctors has anything to do with pay to be honest so can't answer that question.  but to answer the question if they are government workers the answer is no.  of course some people have a different opinion but what it means to be owned by the government. 

    I don't know if you read the article i posted early but here is a quote talking about the same concern medical schools are having in america.

    " A survey by the Association of American Medical Colleges found that 78% of medical school deans are concerned about the ability of incoming students to find residency positions of their choice nationwide. The problem could end up being worse there because unlike in Canada, where provincial governments control the number of residency positions, in the US any hospital can set up a residency program and determine how many residents will be admitted."



    Good point on the distinction of gov't workers.  What I mean is not.. does their paycheck originate from a gov't contract.  I'm more asking if the gov't is actually their employer, controls their raises, individual performance assessment, etc.  Sounds like you are saying no in that case.  
    As far as the available residency positions, I'm a bit confused on the quote from the article.  The way I interpret it (I'm not in the medical field) is that in the States, the Deans are concerned that choice for the incoming residents may be limited.  But this limitation is driven by the private hospitals not wanting/needing residents in the fields that the incoming residents want.  This seems like a supply/demand issue, one that I am okay with it, since it's market driven.  I don't believe medical schools play a role in controlling what the hospitals take for residents.  

    Regardless, my broader concern is about having our best and brightest in the medical field.  I'm most interested to know if that's the case in Canada; that the medical fields draw the strongest people and are the highest paid fields. And that the higher the skill level, the higher the paid.  In other words, in the States, average salaries of family practice doctors are lower than cardiologists.  
    The 10k foot concern for moving to a system similar to Canada, is that when you take the profit motive and choice out of the field, does the quality of care and availability of efficient service go down.  I hear some Canadians say "no" and others like @Meltdown99 say yes.  My only correlation in the States is the VA, and that's not a positive comparison.  

    Sorry for the long winded post.  This reply was for @oftenreading as well.  I'm a bit unsure if you mean med school training or residency when you are talking about training positions, simply because it sounds like the universities have control of the residency process.  I think that's different than here.  

    I think you're overstating the "best and brightest" argument. Sure, medical school and residency spots are competitive, but lots of prestigious, highly paid fields are. It takes high academic standing to get in and you have to be prepared to work really long hours basically forever to make it through, so there's that aspect. Medicine attracts bright people who like the biological sciences and who like all the interpersonal interaction. Other fields attract bright people who like physics, for example, or law, or engineering. Even in the US I suspect you can make more money, more easily in business or finance than in medicine.

    Physician income varies greatly by specialty in both Canada and the US. American physicians tend to have a higher gross income than Canadian physicians for the same specialty, but they also have far higher overheads (American malpractice insurance premiums are absurd, for instance, and doctors need to hire more staff to manage their billing because of all the different payment organization), spend less of their time doing medicine due to the need to deal with mountains of paperwork and back-and-forth arguing with insurance companies, and don't always get paid what they are owed. Some people I've talked to who have done both don't think it's worth it to practice in the US, particularly with the headaches and frustrations involved with the insurance companies essentially dictating care by limiting what they will fund. Those of you in the US who like your private insurance might be surprised at how often you aren't actually getting the care that your doctor wants and thinks you need, because the insurance company won't pay for it. This is particularly bad regarding hospital stays, as patients are routinely discharged before they are medically ready in order to meet insurance company demands. 

    Residency funding is broadly similar in the US and Canada. In both countries the funding for basically all aspects of residency training is government funded (in the US it comes through the Medicare budget). What happens in Canada is that the government provides funding for a certain number of residency and fellowship spots to each postgrad program (which are run by the universities), and the decision as to how to allocate them is made by the programs. The government doesn't get into the specifics of saying "six spots for pediatrics, nine for general surgery.....".  The training is usually hospital-based but the programs are university-affiliated in both countries. 
    Post edited by oftenreading on
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited August 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    mcgruff10 said:


    How is this a drinking game?
    Don't drink when the US does something in a needlessly idiotic way or when an american defends the needlessly idiotic ways for purely egoistical reasons.

    Because if you do, then you will drink yourself to death at once.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited August 2019


    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,114
    edited August 2019
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    mcgruff10 said:


    How is this a drinking game?
    Don't drink when the US does something in a needlessly idiotic way or when an american defends the needlessly idiotic ways for purely egoistical reasons.

    Because if you do, then you will drink yourself to death at once.
    So then I ll be sober?  Again, doesn’t sound like too much of a drinking game to me. 
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    After this weekend I kept thinking...for the love of god please don’t nominate Bernie Sanders.....

    I really hope someone catches lightning in a bottle for the D’s...need a great candidate that help end our long national nightmare.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,114
    cincybearcat said:
    After this weekend I kept thinking...for the love of god please don’t nominate Bernie Sanders.....

    I really hope someone catches lightning in a bottle for the D’s...need a great candidate that help end our long national nightmare.
    Cincy did you like Obama or W?
    and agree on Sanders, dude needs to retire.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    mcgruff10 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    mcgruff10 said:


    How is this a drinking game?
    Don't drink when the US does something in a needlessly idiotic way or when an american defends the needlessly idiotic ways for purely egoistical reasons.

    Because if you do, then you will drink yourself to death at once.
    So then I ll be sober? 
    Finally you are seeing the US with clear eyes.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    mcgruff10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    After this weekend I kept thinking...for the love of god please don’t nominate Bernie Sanders.....

    I really hope someone catches lightning in a bottle for the D’s...need a great candidate that help end our long national nightmare.
    Cincy did you like Obama or W?
    and agree on Sanders, dude needs to retire.  
    I voted for W. 2x. Second time I wasn’t hesitant and going back I really should have just voted 3rd party or something. I liked many of the ideas but 9/11 through a curveball and I don’t think W ever got to some of the things I was hoping for. 

    I voted for Obama 1x. Did I like him? I think he is an intelligence honest person. A good person. I liked some of what he did. He started to turn me off when he was blaming rich people for stuff and including families that make a couple hundred thousand a year and lumping them in with the billionaires. If Obama was in the group running this time, he’d be at the top of my list. Well, I’d have to compare him and Amy and Pete real hard to see.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited August 2019
    cincybearcat said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    After this weekend I kept thinking...for the love of god please don’t nominate Bernie Sanders.....

    I really hope someone catches lightning in a bottle for the D’s...need a great candidate that help end our long national nightmare.
    Cincy did you like Obama or W?
    and agree on Sanders, dude needs to retire.  
    I voted for W. 2x. 
    Choosing to vote for a known War Criminal responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people...




    Who was your favorite moderate mayor choice of your town - Frederick Charles Krueger?

    EDIT: Haha, found this by the way:


    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    I knew that was coming. It’s ok, I’ve been around here a long time and had many discussions on it. 

    You defend a country complicit in the killing of 6 million Jews and countless soldiers as they profited off of their dead bodies. Sometimes we make mistakes and admit it. Other times we make mistakes and defend them.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited August 2019
    cincybearcat said:
    I knew that was coming. It’s ok, I’ve been around here a long time and had many discussions on it. 

    You defend a country complicit in the killing of 6 million Jews and countless soldiers as they profited off of their dead bodies. Sometimes we make mistakes and admit it. Other times we make mistakes and defend them.
    I don't defend Germany for the actual killing or for Swedens choices at that time. Or for the US not caring for several years letting a lot of people die.

    But you chose to vote for a known War Criminal responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people.

    Nice whatsaboutism though.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,114
    cincybearcat said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    After this weekend I kept thinking...for the love of god please don’t nominate Bernie Sanders.....

    I really hope someone catches lightning in a bottle for the D’s...need a great candidate that help end our long national nightmare.
    Cincy did you like Obama or W?
    and agree on Sanders, dude needs to retire.  
    I voted for W. 2x. Second time I wasn’t hesitant and going back I really should have just voted 3rd party or something. I liked many of the ideas but 9/11 through a curveball and I don’t think W ever got to some of the things I was hoping for. 

    I voted for Obama 1x. Did I like him? I think he is an intelligence honest person. A good person. I liked some of what he did. He started to turn me off when he was blaming rich people for stuff and including families that make a couple hundred thousand a year and lumping them in with the billionaires. If Obama was in the group running this time, he’d be at the top of my list. Well, I’d have to compare him and Amy and Pete real hard to see.
    Thanks for the insight Cincy!  So you are pretty much in the middle like me.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    I knew that was coming. It’s ok, I’ve been around here a long time and had many discussions on it. 

    You defend a country complicit in the killing of 6 million Jews and countless soldiers as they profited off of their dead bodies. Sometimes we make mistakes and admit it. Other times we make mistakes and defend them.
    I don't defend Germany for the actual killing or for Swedens choices at that time. Or for the US not caring for several years letting a lot of people die.

    But you chose to vote for a known War Criminal responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people.

    Nice whatsaboutism though.
    6 million
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited August 2019
    cincybearcat said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    I knew that was coming. It’s ok, I’ve been around here a long time and had many discussions on it. 

    You defend a country complicit in the killing of 6 million Jews and countless soldiers as they profited off of their dead bodies. Sometimes we make mistakes and admit it. Other times we make mistakes and defend them.
    I don't defend Germany for the actual killing or for Swedens choices at that time. Or for the US not caring for several years letting a lot of people die.

    But you chose to vote for a known War Criminal responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people.

    Nice whatsaboutism though.
    6 million
    Population-based studies produce estimates of the number of Iraq War casualties ranging from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 (per the Iraq Family Health Survey) to over a million (per the 2007 Opinion Research Business (ORB) survey). Other survey-based studies covering different time-spans find 461,000 total deaths (over 60% of them violent) as of June 2011 (per PLOS Medicine 2013), and 655,000 total deaths (over 90% of them violent) as of June 2006 (per the 2006 Lancet study). Body counts counted at least 110,600 violent deaths as of April 2009 (Associated Press). The Iraq Body Count project documents 183,348 - 205,908 violent civilian deaths through April 2019.


    "Jolly ol' George, Ill go and vore for that fellow a second time"
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    This should give the man a 5 % bump in the polls at least. Otherwise something is wrong:


    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Gern Blansten
    Gern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 22,177
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    This should give the man a 5 % bump in the polls at least. Otherwise something is wrong:


    Yeah I like it....
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,382
    fife said:
    mrussel1 said:
    So question on the lack of doctors and residents... could this be related to the pay,  if they are government employees (are they)?  In the States,  our brightest enter medical school because it's very prestigious and well paying.  Could UHC/M4A change that dynamic?
    I don't know if this was a question about the lack of doctors in canada but i think it is.  I don't have any stats that show the lack of doctors has anything to do with pay to be honest so can't answer that question.  but to answer the question if they are government workers the answer is no.  of course some people have a different opinion but what it means to be owned by the government. 

    I don't know if you read the article i posted early but here is a quote talking about the same concern medical schools are having in america.

    " A survey by the Association of American Medical Colleges found that 78% of medical school deans are concerned about the ability of incoming students to find residency positions of their choice nationwide. The problem could end up being worse there because unlike in Canada, where provincial governments control the number of residency positions, in the US any hospital can set up a residency program and determine how many residents will be admitted."



    "...residency of their choice....."

    this is where a gov program can come into play. in exchange for some percentage of loan forgiveness, these docs to be take residency positions at less desireable places, perhaps extended beyond residency for total or near total loan forgiveness
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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