America's Gun Violence

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

bootlegger10 said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

The spin on this is very good.  I completely disagree but it is very good.

It’s perfect. It’s reality. They are on the front lines.

It is spin.

We act like going to school here is the same as in Israel or some other war torn country, it's not.

Insert "school children" with any other type of person you'd like and it would fit and still be spin, be it police, military, clergy men, take your pick.

It's spin on a situation that the author and a bunch of you apparently agree with which is a shame.  This is what good propaganda and press does to manipulate a way of thinking.

Coming on here always bothers me and I forget that.  I really need to stay off here...

Happy Friday everyone.

Happy Friday.  I don’t really understand your point about spin. I mean everything is spun by anyone using data to make a point.  

But the reality is we Us we have a gun problem in the US. And we have a powerful organization that wants people to fear the government and do whatever it takes, even when that involves putting children at school at risk, putting people in the workplace at risk, putting people at movies at risk, putting people at concerts at risk, to keep their guns and unlimited ammo. 

When your stance on gun control in the face of this reality is to not even budge a little. Then you (the general you) are the problem. To have an incident of any type and not do anything to prevent future instances is to be negligent and part of the problem 

I didn’t read your post before my reply.  Completely agree that the “wait and see” or “no action is needed” crowd are deeply, deeply ignorant of what is happening, or putting their irrational love of their guns over the lives of other people.  Gun owners deep down long for the day they can shoot an intruder that statistically is never going to come.  Otherwise, they wouldn’t sit on their hands when schools keep getting shot up.

Signed,
37 year old who has defied the odds to live this long without owning a gun

Wish we had this outrage when the hoods were getting shot up... I don't recall it though.

Saying that a gun owner wants to shoot someone?  Wow.  I guess people that join the military dream of killing people too?  Or a firefighter loves when a building is burning?

I can only take so many comments like these...

yeah, I personally don't see how gun owners as a whole deep down long to shoot someone. that's just ludicrous. I'd put that at about .01% of gun owners. 

I have friends who own guns. Only for hunting. they don't long for anything other than hanging out with their manly friends shooting living things and being manly. LOL. 

We won't get anywhere with the moderate gun owner crowd if we keep insulting the entire lot. 

Gun owners aren’t going to change regardless.
 
But the alternative is they love hunting so much that they are willing to sacrifice some kids in the process.  So, either you love hunting more than other peoples’ kids, or you are clinging upon all hope that the statistics are wrong and that you will need a gun to kill someone even if that means kids have to go to school fearing their school will be next.  

I was wondering if some people just don’t get angry about stuff, but I guess being accused of wanting to shoot someone is the bright line.  Kids getting shot up on schools though isn’t enough to get a reaction out of some people. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

bootlegger10 said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

The spin on this is very good.  I completely disagree but it is very good.

It’s perfect. It’s reality. They are on the front lines.

It is spin.

We act like going to school here is the same as in Israel or some other war torn country, it's not.

Insert "school children" with any other type of person you'd like and it would fit and still be spin, be it police, military, clergy men, take your pick.

It's spin on a situation that the author and a bunch of you apparently agree with which is a shame.  This is what good propaganda and press does to manipulate a way of thinking.

Coming on here always bothers me and I forget that.  I really need to stay off here...

Happy Friday everyone.

Happy Friday.  I don’t really understand your point about spin. I mean everything is spun by anyone using data to make a point.  

But the reality is we Us we have a gun problem in the US. And we have a powerful organization that wants people to fear the government and do whatever it takes, even when that involves putting children at school at risk, putting people in the workplace at risk, putting people at movies at risk, putting people at concerts at risk, to keep their guns and unlimited ammo. 

When your stance on gun control in the face of this reality is to not even budge a little. Then you (the general you) are the problem. To have an incident of any type and not do anything to prevent future instances is to be negligent and part of the problem 

I didn’t read your post before my reply.  Completely agree that the “wait and see” or “no action is needed” crowd are deeply, deeply ignorant of what is happening, or putting their irrational love of their guns over the lives of other people.  Gun owners deep down long for the day they can shoot an intruder that statistically is never going to come.  Otherwise, they wouldn’t sit on their hands when schools keep getting shot up.

Signed,
37 year old who has defied the odds to live this long without owning a gun

Wish we had this outrage when the hoods were getting shot up... I don't recall it though.

Saying that a gun owner wants to shoot someone?  Wow.  I guess people that join the military dream of killing people too?  Or a firefighter loves when a building is burning?

I can only take so many comments like these...

yeah, I personally don't see how gun owners as a whole deep down long to shoot someone. that's just ludicrous. I'd put that at about .01% of gun owners. 

I have friends who own guns. Only for hunting. they don't long for anything other than hanging out with their manly friends shooting living things and being manly. LOL. 

We won't get anywhere with the moderate gun owner crowd if we keep insulting the entire lot. 

Gun owners aren’t going to change regardless.
 
But the alternative is they love hunting so much that they are willing to sacrifice some kids in the process.  So, either you love hunting more than other peoples’ kids, or you are clinging upon all hope that the statistics are wrong and that you will need a gun to kill someone even if that means kids have to go to school fearing their school will be next.  

I was wondering if some people just don’t get angry about stuff, but I guess being accused of wanting to shoot someone is the bright line.  Kids getting shot up on schools though isn’t enough to get a reaction out of some people. 

I disagree with that assessment. I have seen very little push back on gun control reform in this thread from gun owners. I think they are just as disgusted with the current state of affairs as non-gun owners. But I think it's a problem when we start lumping all gun owners into the "you don't give a shit about the murdered kids" box. it's simply not true. I mean, what is being expected of them? not all of them are NRA members (are any besides McGruff actual NRA members?), so what are they not doing that we (and by we, I mean US members of this fan club) are? 

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

bootlegger10 said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

The spin on this is very good.  I completely disagree but it is very good.

It’s perfect. It’s reality. They are on the front lines.

It is spin.

We act like going to school here is the same as in Israel or some other war torn country, it's not.

Insert "school children" with any other type of person you'd like and it would fit and still be spin, be it police, military, clergy men, take your pick.

It's spin on a situation that the author and a bunch of you apparently agree with which is a shame.  This is what good propaganda and press does to manipulate a way of thinking.

Coming on here always bothers me and I forget that.  I really need to stay off here...

Happy Friday everyone.

Happy Friday.  I don’t really understand your point about spin. I mean everything is spun by anyone using data to make a point.  

But the reality is we Us we have a gun problem in the US. And we have a powerful organization that wants people to fear the government and do whatever it takes, even when that involves putting children at school at risk, putting people in the workplace at risk, putting people at movies at risk, putting people at concerts at risk, to keep their guns and unlimited ammo. 

When your stance on gun control in the face of this reality is to not even budge a little. Then you (the general you) are the problem. To have an incident of any type and not do anything to prevent future instances is to be negligent and part of the problem 

I didn’t read your post before my reply.  Completely agree that the “wait and see” or “no action is needed” crowd are deeply, deeply ignorant of what is happening, or putting their irrational love of their guns over the lives of other people.  Gun owners deep down long for the day they can shoot an intruder that statistically is never going to come.  Otherwise, they wouldn’t sit on their hands when schools keep getting shot up.

Signed,
37 year old who has defied the odds to live this long without owning a gun

Wish we had this outrage when the hoods were getting shot up... I don't recall it though.

Saying that a gun owner wants to shoot someone?  Wow.  I guess people that join the military dream of killing people too?  Or a firefighter loves when a building is burning?

I can only take so many comments like these...

yeah, I personally don't see how gun owners as a whole deep down long to shoot someone. that's just ludicrous. I'd put that at about .01% of gun owners. 

I have friends who own guns. Only for hunting. they don't long for anything other than hanging out with their manly friends shooting living things and being manly. LOL. 

We won't get anywhere with the moderate gun owner crowd if we keep insulting the entire lot. 

Gun owners aren’t going to change regardless.
 
But the alternative is they love hunting so much that they are willing to sacrifice some kids in the process.  So, either you love hunting more than other peoples’ kids, or you are clinging upon all hope that the statistics are wrong and that you will need a gun to kill someone even if that means kids have to go to school fearing their school will be next.  

I was wondering if some people just don’t get angry about stuff, but I guess being accused of wanting to shoot someone is the bright line.  Kids getting shot up on schools though isn’t enough to get a reaction out of some people. 

I disagree with that assessment. I have seen very little push back on gun control reform in this thread from gun owners. I think they are just as disgusted with the current state of affairs as non-gun owners. But I think it's a problem when we start lumping all gun owners into the "you don't give a shit about the murdered kids" box. it's simply not true. I mean, what is being expected of them? not all of them are NRA members (are any besides McGruff actual NRA members?), so what are they not doing that we (and by we, I mean US members of this fan club) are? 

I don’t think you’re correct. Many of the gun owners that post on here say they would consider “gun control reform” when it’s theoretical, but given any specific legislation they are up in arms about “slippery slopes” and “it doesn’t even make any logical sense”. Plus a few have outright said they don’t support any reform. 
 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I mean, I'll probably get thrashed from the "false equivalency" crowd, but why, as liberals, do we:

-say it's not all muslims when a muslim carries out a terrorist attack, and when people lash out at the muslim community for not speaking up against muslim extremists, we say it's not their job to do so, because it's not really islam the terrorist is preaching, etc, yet...
-when someone shoots up a school or a movie theatre, we liberals expect gun owners to step up and fix the gun problem?

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

bootlegger10 said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

The spin on this is very good.  I completely disagree but it is very good.

It’s perfect. It’s reality. They are on the front lines.

It is spin.

We act like going to school here is the same as in Israel or some other war torn country, it's not.

Insert "school children" with any other type of person you'd like and it would fit and still be spin, be it police, military, clergy men, take your pick.

It's spin on a situation that the author and a bunch of you apparently agree with which is a shame.  This is what good propaganda and press does to manipulate a way of thinking.

Coming on here always bothers me and I forget that.  I really need to stay off here...

Happy Friday everyone.

Happy Friday.  I don’t really understand your point about spin. I mean everything is spun by anyone using data to make a point.  

But the reality is we Us we have a gun problem in the US. And we have a powerful organization that wants people to fear the government and do whatever it takes, even when that involves putting children at school at risk, putting people in the workplace at risk, putting people at movies at risk, putting people at concerts at risk, to keep their guns and unlimited ammo. 

When your stance on gun control in the face of this reality is to not even budge a little. Then you (the general you) are the problem. To have an incident of any type and not do anything to prevent future instances is to be negligent and part of the problem 

I didn’t read your post before my reply.  Completely agree that the “wait and see” or “no action is needed” crowd are deeply, deeply ignorant of what is happening, or putting their irrational love of their guns over the lives of other people.  Gun owners deep down long for the day they can shoot an intruder that statistically is never going to come.  Otherwise, they wouldn’t sit on their hands when schools keep getting shot up.

Signed,
37 year old who has defied the odds to live this long without owning a gun

Wish we had this outrage when the hoods were getting shot up... I don't recall it though.

Saying that a gun owner wants to shoot someone?  Wow.  I guess people that join the military dream of killing people too?  Or a firefighter loves when a building is burning?

I can only take so many comments like these...

yeah, I personally don't see how gun owners as a whole deep down long to shoot someone. that's just ludicrous. I'd put that at about .01% of gun owners. 

I have friends who own guns. Only for hunting. they don't long for anything other than hanging out with their manly friends shooting living things and being manly. LOL. 

We won't get anywhere with the moderate gun owner crowd if we keep insulting the entire lot. 

Gun owners aren’t going to change regardless.
 
But the alternative is they love hunting so much that they are willing to sacrifice some kids in the process.  So, either you love hunting more than other peoples’ kids, or you are clinging upon all hope that the statistics are wrong and that you will need a gun to kill someone even if that means kids have to go to school fearing their school will be next.  

I was wondering if some people just don’t get angry about stuff, but I guess being accused of wanting to shoot someone is the bright line.  Kids getting shot up on schools though isn’t enough to get a reaction out of some people. 

I disagree with that assessment. I have seen very little push back on gun control reform in this thread from gun owners. I think they are just as disgusted with the current state of affairs as non-gun owners. But I think it's a problem when we start lumping all gun owners into the "you don't give a shit about the murdered kids" box. it's simply not true. I mean, what is being expected of them? not all of them are NRA members (are any besides McGruff actual NRA members?), so what are they not doing that we (and by we, I mean US members of this fan club) are? 

I don’t think you’re correct. Many of the gun owners that post on here say they would consider “gun control reform” when it’s theoretical, but given any specific legislation they are up in arms about “slippery slopes” and “it doesn’t even make any logical sense”. Plus a few have outright said they don’t support any reform. 
 

I've seen a few say they are more than happy to back laws that make sense. But I think it is PJ Power that is against "feel good laws" or whatever he called them that do something to inhibit gun owners but in his opinion will do nothing to curb the problem. Now, I don't know enough about stats and what laws would actually facilitate change and which ones are just political points, but I would imagine there is some truth to what he is saying. 

I guess maybe our perceptions are just different. I don't see a lot of anti-gun reform here. 

The devil is in the details, and the details never seem good enough.  
 

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I mean, I'll probably get thrashed from the "false equivalency" crowd, but why, as liberals, do we:

-say it's not all muslims when a muslim carries out a terrorist attack, and when people lash out at the muslim community for not speaking up against muslim extremists, we say it's not their job to do so, because it's not really islam the terrorist is preaching, etc, yet...
-when someone shoots up a school or a movie theatre, we liberals expect gun owners to step up and fix the gun problem?

Because the issues are completely different. 

With gun control, we expect and hope that gun owners, the so-called good guys, will advocate for effective gun legislation that will help to reduce gun violence.

With terrorist attacks, what sort of legislative change are we expecting or hoping that Muslims would lobby for? What do you see making a difference? I don’t recall actually seeing the Muslim community argue against laws regarding terrorism or taking a pro-terrorism stance the way that gun owners take a pro-gun stance. 

Both are societal issues, but I see the two groups reacting quite differently in their responses. 

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I mean, I'll probably get thrashed from the "false equivalency" crowd, but why, as liberals, do we:

-say it's not all muslims when a muslim carries out a terrorist attack, and when people lash out at the muslim community for not speaking up against muslim extremists, we say it's not their job to do so, because it's not really islam the terrorist is preaching, etc, yet...
-when someone shoots up a school or a movie theatre, we liberals expect gun owners to step up and fix the gun problem?

Because the issues are completely different. 

With gun control, we expect and hope that gun owners, the so-called good guys, will advocate for effective gun legislation that will help to reduce gun violence.

With terrorist attacks, what sort of legislative change are we expecting or hoping that Muslims would lobby for? What do you see making a difference? I don’t recall actually seeing the Muslim community argue against laws regarding terrorism or taking a pro-terrorism stance the way that gun owners take a pro-gun stance. 

Both are societal issues, but I see the two groups reacting quite differently in their responses. 

I see many parallels.  

What, specifically? 

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I mean, I'll probably get thrashed from the "false equivalency" crowd, but why, as liberals, do we:

-say it's not all muslims when a muslim carries out a terrorist attack, and when people lash out at the muslim community for not speaking up against muslim extremists, we say it's not their job to do so, because it's not really islam the terrorist is preaching, etc, yet...
-when someone shoots up a school or a movie theatre, we liberals expect gun owners to step up and fix the gun problem?

Because the issues are completely different. 

With gun control, we expect and hope that gun owners, the so-called good guys, will advocate for effective gun legislation that will help to reduce gun violence.

With terrorist attacks, what sort of legislative change are we expecting or hoping that Muslims would lobby for? What do you see making a difference? I don’t recall actually seeing the Muslim community argue against laws regarding terrorism or taking a pro-terrorism stance the way that gun owners take a pro-gun stance. 

Both are societal issues, but I see the two groups reacting quite differently in their responses. 

I see many parallels.  

What, specifically? 

I already stated. our expectations of one group simply don't allign with those of another because they are of different political/theological persuasion. 

mickeyrat said:

we can make a modest start in repealing federal law prohibiting government funded research into guns and gun violence.

this should include reporting requirements of all local state and fedral(including nonservice connected incidents among military personnel)  incidents

maybe one of these antigun orgs or philanthropists can privately fund this peer reviewed research as well